45 ACP load for deer

Dragon88 said:

Everyone on the internet has "a friend" with a Glock that blew up. You'd think there were Glocks blowing up every day at ranges all over the US... I've never seen one. Not trying to give you a hard time, I just hate seeing this falsehood constantly perpetuated on internet forums.

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I DON'T like Glocks at all, but I have never witnessed or heard of one blowing up. If nothing else, they are reliable. The 23 is the most popular weapon in LEO circles. That would NOT be so, if they were blowing up frequently.....

Not an optimum choice, but IMO something on the order of a 230g cast TC moving @ 850fps properly placed would be enough to do the job if you were close enough.

Cast is a monolithic solid and the large metplat does damage, so this would be my choice over a HP or ball and for hunting it would improve the performance by way of penetration.

Consider the 45 Colt cast at 255g and moving 850 to 900fps being used and while not thought of as the best solution, it is adequate. Cast in an acp is not so different.

ive kiiled deer with a 5" 1911 loaded with 230gr. fmj wwb.

it was not my intent to do so initially , but when a descent sized doe walks out at close range it become more of a challenge to put it down with a proper shot from a handgun.

ive shot wild pigs too, though again it was not my intent at the time to go after them with a pistol. of course wild pigs are never out of season where i hunted and any time day or night with any weapon, any season you can kill as many as you can.

In an earlier post, I suggested how a longer barrel can help boost .45 ACP power. But why use such an inherently low powered round at all? Is the point to prove that it can be done?

I've only been hunting deer for about 8 years, all on a very large family owned swamp and river bottom paradise for deer. About a dozen of us hunt this closed area. So I see lots of deer shot every year, with slug shotguns, bows, and the occasional handgun.

What has impressed me most, and was completely unexpected, is how difficult it is to kill a deer, even with a heavy, high power projectile going directly through a vital area, expending most of its energy. We've lost a number of deer so hit, because they ran long distances and could not be found before the meat was ruined. Our bow hunters have lost the most.

Several years ago, I shot a deer from about 50 feet with a 575 grain blunt 12 gauge slug which went directly through the heart, causing it to literally explode into a flat pancake. I watched a cloud of blood and tissue exit the far side, but the deer took off through knee-deep swamp. I eventually found it, and towed it out by the antlers. I had to track another one nearly 200 yards, after I solidly hit it through the chest/lungs bullseye area.

Not even a .44 magnum will decisively stop a deer, unless you hit the spine or brain, maybe. So it seems to me that anything less than a heavy shotgun slug from close range, or a large bore rifle slug in states where it is allowed, is just not a wise or humane way to hunt deer. They seem to be about as hard to kill as members of the cat family, and that came as a surprise to me. To hunt them with a bow, or low powered handgun, is just something I could not in good conscience do, although I know it is possible. And I know some of you probably take exception on the bow hunting comment, but I just see too many deer disappear to die an agonizing death and have the meat wasted. My personal entertainment is not worth that.

Because of what I have seen on how hard they are to kill, I would not even use the .357 Magnum. Model 29 in .44 Magnum? That is accurate enough for a scoped head or spine shot, and that will stop them right now.

Phil, id like to clarify if i may, that the deer are no harder to kill but in fact harder to stop right there. they havent watched enough t.v. to know they should drop right away.

PhilOhio said:

In an earlier post, I suggested how a longer barrel can help boost .45 ACP power. But why use such an inherently low powered round at all? Is the point to prove that it can be done?

I've only been hunting deer for about 8 years, all on a very large family owned swamp and river bottom paradise for deer. About a dozen of us hunt this closed area. So I see lots of deer shot every year, with slug shotguns, bows, and the occasional handgun.

What has impressed me most, and was completely unexpected, is how difficult it is to kill a deer, even with a heavy, high power projectile going directly through a vital area, expending most of its energy. We've lost a number of deer so hit, because they ran long distances and could not be found before the meat was ruined. Our bow hunters have lost the most.

Several years ago, I shot a deer from about 50 feet with a 575 grain blunt 12 gauge slug which went directly through the heart, causing it to literally explode into a flat pancake. I watched a cloud of blood and tissue exit the far side, but the deer took off through knee-deep swamp. I eventually found it, and towed it out by the antlers. I had to track another one nearly 200 yards, after I solidly hit it through the chest/lungs bullseye area.

Not even a .44 magnum will decisively stop a deer, unless you hit the spine or brain, maybe. So it seems to me that anything less than a heavy shotgun slug from close range, or a large bore rifle slug in states where it is allowed, is just not a wise or humane way to hunt deer. They seem to be about as hard to kill as members of the cat family, and that came as a surprise to me. To hunt them with a bow, or low powered handgun, is just something I could not in good conscience do, although I know it is possible. And I know some of you probably take exception on the bow hunting comment, but I just see too many deer disappear to die an agonizing death and have the meat wasted. My personal entertainment is not worth that.

Because of what I have seen on how hard they are to kill, I would not even use the .357 Magnum. Model 29 in .44 Magnum? That is accurate enough for a scoped head or spine shot, and that will stop them right now.

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PhilOhio said:

We've lost a number of deer so hit, because they ran long distances and could not be found before the meat was ruined. Our bow hunters have lost the most.

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A deer properly hit will go down in short order...it doesn't have a choice. It will bleed out if it doesn't drop from shock from the initial bullet impact. I've killed dozens of deer with a bow and the only time I had to track one more than 50 yards was a bad shot that I made that hit too far back. Even then, I gave the deer time to lie down and it only went about 100 yards. If you're losing deer, it's because you aren't hitting them right or you're chasing them too soon.

Dragon88 said:

Everyone on the internet has "a friend" with a Glock that blew up. You'd think there were Glocks blowing up every day at ranges all over the US... I've never seen one. Not trying to give you a hard time, I just hate seeing this falsehood constantly perpetuated on internet forums.

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Well, this isn't a falsehood Drag ole buddy! In fact, the friend is a forum member here so verifying the KB is relatively simple. Send a pm to Paul5388 and see what he has to say. The gun belonged to his son or son in law.

Here is how I see the Glock and KB issue. They happen, period. If you turn a blind eye to it, you are an idiot, plain and simple. They have happened for various reasons other than an unsupported chamber, got it. What I liken it to is this: Let's say you have a folding knife. That knife does not have a lock for the blade on it. No problem, it was designed that way. Now let's say you need to pry something with it and the only way you can git r did is to pry in the way that the knife closes. Would you put your fingers between the handle and the blade? No, that is, unless you are an idiot.

Same thing with a Glock, and a high pressure round especially, you just gotta know how to load for them. Plain and simple. That is why I NEVER load fast burning powders in a 40S&W nor a 9mm for that matter if it is going to be shot in a Glock. I just know that "it ain't got a lock" and "pry in the other direction", simple.

To ignore the well documented FACT that Glocks have had an exorbitant amount of KBs with factory ammo is more than silly. It is down right dangerous.

Freischütz said:

If you can get a revolver take a look at the 45 Auto Rim loads in Speer #8. The 240 gr bullet looks like 452423. Assuming you can work up to the top loads, you can get >1,000 fps. That will handle a deer.

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Mine is a load of SR4756 and the 240gr LSWC for 1100fps out of a 4" M625JM. Like I said earlier, use one of the variants!

Most handgun calibers only develop about 10-50fps per inch of additional barrel. I haven't shot this over the chronograph YET but I will be letting you all know.

It is a Glock 21 SF (slim frame) with full Picatanny rail and a 6.2" Lone Wolf drop in barrel.
A bit hard to conceal in this configuration but VERY accurate!



Then, if you really want to take it to the next level with the 45ACP there is always this option! You could even put a scope on it if you want!



An you would LOOK SO COOL shooting a deer with one of them that words could not express it!

Bomberman said:

A deer properly hit will go down in short order...it doesn't have a choice. It will bleed out if it doesn't drop from shock from the initial bullet impact. I've killed dozens of deer with a bow and the only time I had to track one more than 50 yards was a bad shot that I made that hit too far back. Even then, I gave the deer time to lie down and it only went about 100 yards. If you're losing deer, it's because you aren't hitting them right or you're chasing them too soon.

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Bomberpilot, I have to differ with you strongly, and the reason is that what you say makes total sense, but conflicts with what I have experienced and seen with my hunter friends. It is illogical, but it happens. It has nothing to do with "aren't hitting them right". The most extreme personal example was the destructive heart shot from about 50 feet, mentioned in my first post.

I hit this deer from almost point blank range, saw the hole open and saw tissue and blood fly out the other side. Unbelievably, the deer did a fast walk through 18" water and into very heavy thicket. It went several hundred feet and was difficult to find.

I field dressed it. I always save the heart and liver, which I love to eat. Field dressing this one, I couldn't find the heart, and thought...??? Finally, I realized a big flat pancake thing had once been the heart. That 575 grain slug had hit it squarely, and hydrostatic shock literally caused the heart to explode. So you think that deer was not hit right????

Almost the same thing happened two years earlier and 100 yards from that spot. I hit one broadside, from close, squarely in the bullseye area. But that deer, one of two standing side by side, took off like a shot. I thought I had missed it, but could not imagine how. I began walking in the general direction, just to check... About 100 yards away, there it lay, stone dead, and hit precisely where I had the cross hairs. The slug also passed all the way through and caused great exit hole damage. Not hit right??? I think not.

There is something about deer physiology, or stamina, or adrenalin, or something that I/we may not fully understand. But sometimes squarely hit ones drop like a stone, and sometimes they run like the wind...for a short time. It may have a lot to do with where you hit, in relation to the nerve system. Break that information transmission system, and it stops right there, but such a hit is a matter of luck.

I learn something new and amazing each hunting season.

Spine shots ALWAYS drop them right there. Luck? Not from a tree stand!

Texas heart shot seems to work about the same.

If you want them to drop right where you shoot them, they need to be hit on a major bone. Through a front shoulder, into the boiler room and hopefully out the other side.

I am talking from a pistol caliber. Rifle with the right bullet, one that transfers all of it's energy, usually is a different story.

That has been my experience anyway.

G.T. Smith said:

I tried to use a 45 ACP round for deer hunting in Missouri. I heard that you couldn't use the FMJ so I got some rounds that were, IIRC 180 gr. They were a kind of cone shaped lead bullet. I don't reload and have no idea what the powder was or anything like that. Whatever it was it didn't work. I shot at a deer in an open field, about 75 yards off and the bullet made it little more than 2/3rds of the way out there.
I traded the gun for a Winchester .300 magnum. Problem solved.
Peace,
gordon

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That's more your shooting than condemnation of the 45acp. It has barely enough gas for 25yd shots IMO, w/ the right bullet. FOr me, that would be a wide meplate, 200gr LFP @ 950fps. It will completely penetrate any deer broadside, but you run out of serious vel quickly past 50yds & most 45acp & shooters just aren't that accurate for 50yd shots & beyond. Can I hit a deer @ 100yds, sure, I routinely shoot my 1911 @ 100yds & score hits on man size metal sil, but that isn't the same as placing a 44mag within 3" of POA @ the same distance. If you wanted to use a JHP< the 200gr XTP running the same vel is a pretty good bullet & still likely to exit a broadside shot, doing more damage than the LFP.

one eye joe said:

I DON'T like Glocks at all, but I have never witnessed or heard of one blowing up. If nothing else, they are reliable. The 23 is the most popular weapon in LEO circles. That would NOT be so, if they were blowing up frequently.....

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Actually, they do KB, more often than you think, mostly from poor handloading practices, but many LEA exp GLcok KB in 1st Gen G22 back in the day when LEA used reloaded ammo for practice. Talk to the former Burbank PD training officer, not uncommon at all. Glocks have also been known to fire out of battery, not uncommon either. Also prone to limp wristing, especially in the 40. They are not the bullet proof guns they would have you believe they are. The reason most LEA buy them, they are cheap, light wt, reasonably accurate & they don't rust from poor maintance. Yes, I own some GLocks, just don't care all that much for them.

PhilOhio said:

Bomberpilot, I have to differ with you strongly, and the reason is that what you say makes total sense, but conflicts with what I have experienced and seen with my hunter friends. It is illogical, but it happens. It has nothing to do with "aren't hitting them right". The most extreme personal example was the destructive heart shot from about 50 feet, mentioned in my first post.

I hit this deer from almost point blank range, saw the hole open and saw tissue and blood fly out the other side. Unbelievably, the deer did a fast walk through 18" water and into very heavy thicket. It went several hundred feet and was difficult to find.

I field dressed it. I always save the heart and liver, which I love to eat. Field dressing this one, I couldn't find the heart, and thought...??? Finally, I realized a big flat pancake thing had once been the heart. That 575 grain slug had hit it squarely, and hydrostatic shock literally caused the heart to explode. So you think that deer was not hit right????

Almost the same thing happened two years earlier and 100 yards from that spot. I hit one broadside, from close, squarely in the bullseye area. But that deer, one of two standing side by side, took off like a shot. I thought I had missed it, but could not imagine how. I began walking in the general direction, just to check... About 100 yards away, there it lay, stone dead, and hit precisely where I had the cross hairs. The slug also passed all the way through and caused great exit hole damage. Not hit right??? I think not.

There is something about deer physiology, or stamina, or adrenalin, or something that I/we may not fully understand. But sometimes squarely hit ones drop like a stone, and sometimes they run like the wind...for a short time. It may have a lot to do with where you hit, in relation to the nerve system. Break that information transmission system, and it stops right there, but such a hit is a matter of luck.

I learn something new and amazing each hunting season.

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What you posted earlier was "What has impressed me most, and was completely unexpected, is how difficult it is to kill a deer, even with a heavy, high power projectile going directly through a vital area, expending most of its energy. We've lost a number of deer so hit, because they ran long distances and could not be found before the meat was ruined. Our bow hunters have lost the most."

In my response I said deer will die in short order and I stand by that statement. A heart shot deer will usually take off on a "death run", sometimes even running into trees. But those deer will be dead within seconds (just as in your example above). A deer can cover a lot of ground in a couple of seconds, but a heart shot deer will usually leave a very wide blood trail. You should not be losing deer if they are properly hit. Yes, you may have to trail it, but it won't be far. A deer that runs long distances, as you previously said, was not hit in the heart/lung area. Liver shot deer can run a long way without leaving much of a trail, same with a gut shot...still fatal hits but not very quick. But, a deer so hit, if left alone, will lay down very quickly (usually within 100 yards). Given enough time (were talking hours here), it will die right there. If you pursue it too soon, it will jump up and run for miles. If you're looking to drop a deer on the spot, break the front shoulder bone or go for a spine/neck shot.

And as for your statement "It has nothing to do with "aren't hitting them right".", it has everything to do with hitting them right. You do your job and you eat venison. There's nothing magical about a deer...hit them in their vitals and it's over. Period.

fredj338 said:

Actually, they do KB, more often than you think, mostly from poor handloading practices, but many LEA exp GLcok KB in 1st Gen G22 back in the day when LEA used reloaded ammo for practice. Talk to the former Burbank PD training officer, not uncommon at all.

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Old, outdated information that is no longer correct. 1st Gen Glock 22s? Come on, there have been some improvements in the last 21 years. Not uncommon to fire out of battery? Show me even one that was caused by the gun.

More unsubstantiated misinformation that continues to circulate the internet...

I am glad the .45 ACP is not legal here,if I saw someone using one I would turn them in !. It borders on cruelty in my book,use enough gun,it's not .45 ACP ! .357 Mag is not legal here either.Ego's are huge for those who insist on a marginal hunting cartridge.

Dragon88 said:

Old, outdated information that is no longer correct. 1st Gen Glock 22s? Come on, there have been some improvements in the last 21 years. Not uncommon to fire out of battery? Show me even one that was caused by the gun.

More unsubstantiated misinformation that continues to circulate the internet...

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Drag,

You are not being logical here. 1st off, Glocks do not need defended, they need to be used. They are ugly, blocky, steel and plastic when put together like they do work, and, they work well. They are more than adequately functional and superbly accurate BUT as long as there is just ONE first generation Glock 22 out there from the offending era, the information that they may be susceptible to a KB is good info.

Now, here is one way to get around that little piece of info: Have Glock do a free safety upgrade to those early pistols.

It also needs to be noted that they are not the only firearms with this problem. Remember the 38Super 1911's that had the same problem? Or how about the Browning High Power that I and several others have owned and had a KB in?

To dismiss this knowledge as outdated only perpetuates the possibility that some unsuspecting novice handloader might ignorantly cause a dangerous situation in the handgun they own. I for one am not ready to be a contributing factor in having that happen so, I will continue my warnings about reloading high pressure calibers in handguns with unsupported chambers of which, Glock is one.

This is silly to me. It is like those two school kids that are in the parking lot yelling at each other at the top of their lungs and one is yelling "Chevy" and the other "Ford" all the while not realizing that both can breakdown for various reasons.

So, if you want to say that the info isn't any good for the pistols that Glock makes today, say that but please include the disclaimer that the early versions had some real problems.

Bomberman, much of what you say agrees with my observations, but not at the 100%-of-the-time level. Which was my point; why I said I am always learning something new. For example, when you wrote...

"...but a heart shot deer will usually leave a very wide blood trail. You should not be losing deer if they are properly hit. Yes, you may have to trail it, but it won't be far."

The key words are "usually" and "should not be". How true. But I shot one squarely through the heart and it took off running through brush; also thought I missed. Started following, but no snow. Couldn't find blood, not a bit. After about 200 feet, I found a few droplets, on saplings. A little further, it was as though somebody with a big red brush had painted all the trees on either side. Then about 100 yards from the shot, there lay the deer, dead. This was "but sometimes", and "in my personal experience", and "when solidly hit in a vital area".

I guess it gets to one's definition of "far" and "long distances". I think 100 yards, especially in dense growth, is "far".

Where you quoted me out of context:

"And as for your statement "It has nothing to do with "aren't hitting them right".", it has everything to do with hitting them right. You do your job and you eat venison. There's nothing magical about a deer...hit them in their vitals and it's over. Period."

If only life, and all of this world, were black and white.

That quote of what I wrote narrowly referred to specific examples of accurate, should-be-fatal hits in my personal experience, doing the job "right", by anybody's definition...the context was deer hit solidly, such as heart shots. By no means do they reliably drop, virtually always, as you imply. Sometimes yes, but quite often much later and further away. Neither you nor I can accurately predict which it will be. About that I have no doubt, again based on experience. And not because of poor hunter skill. Nothing about deer hunting is so cut and dried, clear and predictable. It's just how it is. I think most guys here would agree, and have their own stories to tell.

The point of my postings was to relate some unusual personal deer hunting experiences which have taught me that dropping deer instantly, using good equipment and good skill, is not nearly as predictable as you so adamantly contend. You may disagree with me, but your opinions do not cancel out my personal observations.

Nobody here, or out in the field, has deer and deer hunting all figured out and rendered predictable. It's a lot of fun, but full of surprises that don't fit anybody's rigid prediction of what is going to happen, under what circumstances, when, and no exceptions. Good skill, preparation, and equipment hopefully tilts the odds in our favor, but there are still some wild cards. And I guess that makes it worth buying the license.

And all of the above makes me consider the original question, about use of the .45 ACP round to hunt deer. To all of the built-in uncertainties of hunting deer with the best of weaponry, why add to that the use of such a marginal cartridge, even if you load it to the very maximum limits of its potential? Around here, we go through too much to even get a good shot at a really fine deer. Why stack the odds of bagging it against ourselves?

I have a range report. I took the Thompson to the range along with the Glock 21 to see what the longer barrel would give me. The Glock is the standard 5" barrel, the Thompson has a 16.5" one. The load was the standard 5.0gr of Bullseye under a 230gr RN bullet.

From the Glock, it developed the standard 800fps. Nothing earth shattering here! The exact same load in the longer barrel developed 1000fps. Now, you should be able to plug those numbers into your ballistic software and see what kind of energy you can expect at what ranges.

And with those numbers you can see that Bullseye develops 17fps for each inch of barrel with this load.
Slower powders will give higher velocities. Maybe I will have to play around with that in the future.

Dragon88 said:

Old, outdated information that is no longer correct. 1st Gen Glock 22s? Come on, there have been some improvements in the last 21 years. Not uncommon to fire out of battery? Show me even one that was caused by the gun.

More unsubstantiated misinformation that continues to circulate the internet...

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Out of date or not, they did KB. IMO, a gun firing OOB IS a gun problem, not ammo. If the rounds won't chamber, that is an ammo problem. If it still fires OOB, that is a gun problem.
If you think Glocks do NOT KB, here are a few pics. I don't know the circumstance, but I have ben shooting long enough to have seen my share of GLocks go up w/ reloads & factory ammo. Yes there are other KB guns here too, but to think Glocks do NOT KB, you are just not paying attention. http://www.google.com/search?q=Gloc...&ei=Z38qTprOKePV0QHN5LTkCg&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQsAQ