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Old 07-18-2011, 05:48 PM
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Default 45 ACP load for deer

Does anyone use the 45 acp for deer and what loads do you use ? I am a 44mag. hunter but the owner of the range brought out a springfield 1911 ,somewhat custom and he said it would make a nice deer gun . So if this is true let me see some of your loads and what range do you shoot , or max would you shoot ?
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:07 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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In Indiana the 45ACP cannot be used for deer hunting. The round has enough energy to do the work on small deer but I would think that the corn fed behemoths of our two states would be out of it's league any further out than 50 yards.

Of course, there are the hybrids out there too. 460 Rowland, 45 WinMag and either one of those would be more than adequate for any animal out to 100 yards. Just remember that there is going to be a considerable amount of drop to a 230gr bullet that started out at only 800fps @ that 100 yards. If you can get that weight bullet up to over 1000 fps, either by using one of the variants mentioned above OR shooting them in a revolver and running them over pressure or in +P and you my be good to go too.

For me, the 45ACP is my carry caliber. 2 legged @ less than 20 yards and they have had it! 4 legged though, give me a 45 Colt with Linebaugh's loads or a 44Mag in a carbine. Just sayin'
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:40 PM
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I tried to use a 45 ACP round for deer hunting in Missouri. I heard that you couldn't use the FMJ so I got some rounds that were, IIRC 180 gr. They were a kind of cone shaped lead bullet. I don't reload and have no idea what the powder was or anything like that. Whatever it was it didn't work. I shot at a deer in an open field, about 75 yards off and the bullet made it little more than 2/3rds of the way out there.
I traded the gun for a Winchester .300 magnum. Problem solved.
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:47 PM
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I think this is a big case of just how much you stalk your target when hunting. The .45 ACP was never intended for hunting. But I know guys that have used Beretta 92's in 9mm for hunting. And they got in darn close to do it and claimed it was one heck of a rush. I can only assume bow hunters do and feel the same way. SWC ammo for .45's is typically loaded as target paper punching ammo and loaded soft enough to cycle reliably but get you back on target fast. If you wanted to hunt I would try and find a good 185 or 200 grain SWC and load it out to the max stats allowed in a 1911 and see if you can shoot them accurate enough at fifty yards MAX. Add to this I would drop in at least a fresh spring if not a heavy one. You might even add one of the nylon buffer bits. I just don't see this as a good idea unless you are going all Predator style on them and slapping them in the face first before you shoot them. I'm not the avid hunter but I know at least a little bit about 1911's.
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:10 PM
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Years ago, a Virginia Conservation Official got in a lot of trouble shooting two wild pigs with a 1911 .45....

Trouble was, he shot them on a Federal Wildlife Refuge, they were driving through the refuge on the way to a National Gaurd picnic as I remember, he saw a sow hog and a piglet not far from the road. He stopped his car, shot both pigs with his .45, killing the piglet but not the sow. Sow was injured, immobile, and knucklehead had run out of ammo. He had to go to the Refuge Manager and tell him what happened, the refuge manager returned with a revolver and put the sow down.

Why so much trouble? The car following him to the picnic was full of reporters who witnessed the whole thing. All over the papers the next day, "Top Virginia Conservation Official Kills Wild Pigs Out of Season, On a Federal Wildlife Refuge, Shooting From the Road, etc. ", and the fact he shot them without enough gun and left them didn't help....
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:24 PM
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i have killed a few deer w/the .45 acp.

they were both small texas deer (100 lbs) and were within 20 yards.
i have killed about 10 bow hunting, also.
if you keep your range the same as bowhunting, i think the .45 acp has a definite advantage over any arrow,
hollowpoint or fmj roundnose works well.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:29 PM
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Personally I would not use 45 ACP for this purpose. However if I had to, I think I would go with a 230gr XTP over a very stout charge of Unique. My testing with max loads of this powder gave me 930fps average out of a 5" bbl. A Gold Dot gave the same velocity. 440 ft/lbs of energy with a 45 caliber frontal area is nothing to sneeze at. If you do work some loads with XTPs or Gold Dots, keep in mind that both of these bullets require a shorter COAL than FMJ ball for proper chambering. This will reduce remaining case capacity.

Also, as much as I don't want to say it, I think a Glock 21 would make a better "deer gun" than a 1911. The G21 is an extremely strong firearm, derived from the G20 10mm design, firing the low pressure 45 auto. While this is not a license to work up dangerously high-pressure loads, it does give you some leeway to stretch the cartridge's legs into the "+P" range.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:29 PM
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A friend of mine had a Glock 36 KB on him with factory ammo. I sure wouldn't push the platform. Don't take that as Glock hate speach. I have a Glock 21 SFNS that is my constant companion. I have nothing against Tactical Tupperware.

Like the cartridge too.

I was riding my horse through the apple orchard one day and came upon a deer that had been hit by a car. Back leg was busted pretty well and it didn't run. Have to call the cops for wounded deer around here or if you get caught with the carcass you can get into tons of trouble. When the cop arrived, I asked if he wanted to use my 1911 to put it down. Loaded with 5.0gr of Bullseye under a 230gr XTP. It was a Smith 1911 of course!

Anyway, he put one in the right eye of that deer. Never left the skull and mushroomed to about .800".

'Course he was only 30' from it! Just saying'
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:21 PM
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The last buck I killed with my kimber custom classic fell. Got up and wobbled off about 20 yards and expired. Shot him with a Fed. 230 gr. hydrashock. Bullet entered behind the left shoulder and came out the right shoulder breaking the leg. Shot was about 35 yards. Would I do it again. Heck yes! 45acp has plenty of power to shoot through a deer at close to moderate woods ranges.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
A friend of mine had a Glock 36 KB on him with factory ammo.
Everyone on the internet has "a friend" with a Glock that blew up. You'd think there were Glocks blowing up every day at ranges all over the US... I've never seen one. Not trying to give you a hard time, I just hate seeing this falsehood constantly perpetuated on internet forums.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:33 PM
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If you like the 1911 enough to try it on deer, there's a better way to boost the power. Get a longer barrel, and then tinker with powder types and charges.

I've given this a lot of thought for a few years, but so far, I've stayed with my wonderful Remington 11-87 and bulldozer 12 ga. slug loads. In Ohio, we can use handguns, but caliber must be .38 or over, minimum 5" barrel, and no bottle neck cartridges. So I bought a 6" drop-in 1911 barrel. In a handgun, each additional inch gives you the chance to boost velocity considerably.

But there's something even better, and legal. Numrich's is still selling a kit to make the 1911 a legal detachable shoulder stock carbine. You get a mainspring housing slotted to take a stock, plus the stock, plus a 16 1/4" barrel. It sounds awkward, but the thing is a tack driver. All is legally well, as long as you do not use the stock with a short barrel installed. You could use the long barrel without the stock, as a legal deer hunting handgun in Ohio. All you need are good sights, such as a red dot.

With registered Thompsons (10" standard barrel) we can get around 1000 FPS with standard .45 ACP ball ammo. Load it with slower burning powder and you can get well above that. So for a handloader who likes to hunt with a pistol, there is no reason why you cannot use a long slide 1911, or one with just a longer barrel, and boost velocity to the 1000+ FPS range, where a well made expanding bullet can do a very respectable and accurate job on deer in the 50 to 75 yard range. I've never had a longer shot here in Ohio, and most are much closer. No thoughtful hunter should consider taking a pistol shot at a deer beyond 75 yards anyway.

Maybe this year I'll try a handgun. I keep thinking about my .44 Automag. Then I think about that rifled and scoped 11-87 and the certainty of it, and I hesitate. That gigantic air rifle sabot slug does the job every time...all the way through, and with an impressive exit hole.
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Old 07-18-2011, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon88 View Post
Everyone on the internet has "a friend" with a Glock that blew up. You'd think there were Glocks blowing up every day at ranges all over the US... I've never seen one. Not trying to give you a hard time, I just hate seeing this falsehood constantly perpetuated on internet forums.
I have seen a G17 that gave up the ghost when the locking block on the frame simply gave way. I suspect it was poor disaasembly/re-assembly that led to the officer's service weapon giving up the ghost the day before her re-qualification . Of course, I have also seen an M9 and a 1911 each have a catastrophic failure. I think in each case it was due to material fatigue and a poor maintenance routine, or an inadvertent hot load.

Back to the thread, I would stick with the XTP bullet in a +P level charge.
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Old 07-19-2011, 12:43 AM
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If you can get a revolver take a look at the 45 Auto Rim loads in Speer #8. The 240 gr bullet looks like 452423. Assuming you can work up to the top loads, you can get >1,000 fps. That will handle a deer.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lscocoa View Post
Does anyone use the 45 acp for deer and what loads do you use ? I am a 44mag. hunter but the owner of the range brought out a springfield 1911 ,somewhat custom and he said it would make a nice deer gun . So if this is true let me see some of your loads and what range do you shoot , or max would you shoot ?
You have a 44 mag? Why would you want to go down to a 45 acp?? I have shot 3 deer with the 44 mag that were heart lung shots and had to track all of them from 40-90 yds, all were broadsid , both lungs destroyed and 1 heart this was with hydroshocks, IMI soft point, Rem soft point. I have since switched to 250 XTP- one FELL about 3 yds otherwise is was like Thor's hammer and anchored them in the spot. All were broadside 33-35 yds. Why did some run ? I have no idea, at necropsy the damage was essentially the same with all loads, deer range from a 120 doe to 175 lbs buck?? I have shot deer with 357 mag and 40 SW ( 165 gr ranger ) all dropped there. IF you have to go with the 45 I would use XTP 230 or ranger 230 +P, and keep it to 50 yd or under. There is nothing worse than trailing/tracking a deer that should be lying on the ground. Enjoy. Be Safe.
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Old 07-19-2011, 07:14 AM
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Used my government 1911 with Federal 230 Hydrashocks to put down a deer hit by a car near my home.

I was on my way to work, dressed in "business casual," and the poor critter was lying in the middle of the road. Went back to my house and got my 1911 (because its always loaded), and had my wife call the warden.

Should have brought my rifle. The deer got up on two broken legs when I returned, and began to hobble off. Must have had it's nervous system totally maxed with adrenaline, shock and pain. Didn't want to lie down on the ground in my work clothes to make a head shot at 30 yards, so stuck with center mass. Took about 5 rounds in the rib cage to put it on the ground. Took maybe 30 seconds.

There are better calibers for deer.

Took a course with Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch last month. We were practicing transitions from the carbine to the pistol. Clint said, "Think about this. By going to your pistol away from your rifle you have just traded Ken for Barbie."
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Old 07-19-2011, 07:44 AM
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Years ago I took several whitetails on Fort Benning, Georgia using an issue M1911A-1 and GI ball ammo. Solid hits in the heart-lung area within about 25 yards always did the trick.

Not the choice I would prefer, but it's what I had to work with at the time, and I was acting under orders to get it done and that's how it got done.
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:47 AM
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In NH there is a short list of permitted handgun cartridges for deer hunting, the .45acp isn't on the list.
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murdock View Post
Used my government 1911 with Federal 230 Hydrashocks to put down a deer hit by a car near my home.

I was on my way to work, dressed in "business casual," and the poor critter was lying in the middle of the road. Went back to my house and got my 1911 (because its always loaded), and had my wife call the warden.

Should have brought my rifle. The deer got up on two broken legs when I returned, and began to hobble off. Must have had it's nervous system totally maxed with adrenaline, shock and pain. Didn't want to lie down on the ground in my work clothes to make a head shot at 30 yards, so stuck with center mass. Took about 5 rounds in the rib cage to put it on the ground. Took maybe 30 seconds.

There are better calibers for deer.

Took a course with Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch last month. We were practicing transitions from the carbine to the pistol. Clint said, "Think about this. By going to your pistol away from your rifle you have just traded Ken for Barbie."
I too had to dispatch a car injured Doe. I used my Kimber ultra and it took 6 shots to the head. I was standing right next to the poor thing. From my very close hand experience I can verify the .45 ACP is not adequate for Deer.
Another time I had to use a m-60 2 inch .38+p on a injured Doe from about 30 feet away and it took all 5 shots, I no longer carry a .38 ,for that reason.
Stick with your .44 it`s better to have too much gun so that you are more able to stop the animal`s suffering sooner.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:07 AM
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I carry a Glock 21 daily to protect me and my family( of course all of my other hand guns are S&W's). All my other guns are S&W's I have never seen one in person go BOOM! I have a friend who is a C3/C7 so he get Post Sample MG's and we beat on them. He had a Glock 18 that he put 30,000 rounds thru in two years, he had a handful of FTF's, but no BOOMs!
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:23 AM
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Did you start this thread just to make controversy? Bored?

I hope so...
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Old 07-19-2011, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon88 View Post
Everyone on the internet has "a friend" with a Glock that blew up. You'd think there were Glocks blowing up every day at ranges all over the US... I've never seen one. Not trying to give you a hard time, I just hate seeing this falsehood constantly perpetuated on internet forums.
I DON'T like Glocks at all, but I have never witnessed or heard of one blowing up. If nothing else, they are reliable. The 23 is the most popular weapon in LEO circles. That would NOT be so, if they were blowing up frequently.....
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:09 PM
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Not an optimum choice, but IMO something on the order of a 230g cast TC moving @ 850fps properly placed would be enough to do the job if you were close enough.

Cast is a monolithic solid and the large metplat does damage, so this would be my choice over a HP or ball and for hunting it would improve the performance by way of penetration.

Consider the 45 Colt cast at 255g and moving 850 to 900fps being used and while not thought of as the best solution, it is adequate. Cast in an acp is not so different.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:31 PM
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ive kiiled deer with a 5" 1911 loaded with 230gr. fmj wwb.

it was not my intent to do so initially , but when a descent sized doe walks out at close range it become more of a challenge to put it down with a proper shot from a handgun.

ive shot wild pigs too, though again it was not my intent at the time to go after them with a pistol. of course wild pigs are never out of season where i hunted and any time day or night with any weapon, any season you can kill as many as you can.
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:08 PM
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In an earlier post, I suggested how a longer barrel can help boost .45 ACP power. But why use such an inherently low powered round at all? Is the point to prove that it can be done?

I've only been hunting deer for about 8 years, all on a very large family owned swamp and river bottom paradise for deer. About a dozen of us hunt this closed area. So I see lots of deer shot every year, with slug shotguns, bows, and the occasional handgun.

What has impressed me most, and was completely unexpected, is how difficult it is to kill a deer, even with a heavy, high power projectile going directly through a vital area, expending most of its energy. We've lost a number of deer so hit, because they ran long distances and could not be found before the meat was ruined. Our bow hunters have lost the most.

Several years ago, I shot a deer from about 50 feet with a 575 grain blunt 12 gauge slug which went directly through the heart, causing it to literally explode into a flat pancake. I watched a cloud of blood and tissue exit the far side, but the deer took off through knee-deep swamp. I eventually found it, and towed it out by the antlers. I had to track another one nearly 200 yards, after I solidly hit it through the chest/lungs bullseye area.

Not even a .44 magnum will decisively stop a deer, unless you hit the spine or brain, maybe. So it seems to me that anything less than a heavy shotgun slug from close range, or a large bore rifle slug in states where it is allowed, is just not a wise or humane way to hunt deer. They seem to be about as hard to kill as members of the cat family, and that came as a surprise to me. To hunt them with a bow, or low powered handgun, is just something I could not in good conscience do, although I know it is possible. And I know some of you probably take exception on the bow hunting comment, but I just see too many deer disappear to die an agonizing death and have the meat wasted. My personal entertainment is not worth that.

Because of what I have seen on how hard they are to kill, I would not even use the .357 Magnum. Model 29 in .44 Magnum? That is accurate enough for a scoped head or spine shot, and that will stop them right now.
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:49 PM
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Phil, id like to clarify if i may, that the deer are no harder to kill but in fact harder to stop right there. they havent watched enough t.v. to know they should drop right away.

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In an earlier post, I suggested how a longer barrel can help boost .45 ACP power. But why use such an inherently low powered round at all? Is the point to prove that it can be done?

I've only been hunting deer for about 8 years, all on a very large family owned swamp and river bottom paradise for deer. About a dozen of us hunt this closed area. So I see lots of deer shot every year, with slug shotguns, bows, and the occasional handgun.

What has impressed me most, and was completely unexpected, is how difficult it is to kill a deer, even with a heavy, high power projectile going directly through a vital area, expending most of its energy. We've lost a number of deer so hit, because they ran long distances and could not be found before the meat was ruined. Our bow hunters have lost the most.

Several years ago, I shot a deer from about 50 feet with a 575 grain blunt 12 gauge slug which went directly through the heart, causing it to literally explode into a flat pancake. I watched a cloud of blood and tissue exit the far side, but the deer took off through knee-deep swamp. I eventually found it, and towed it out by the antlers. I had to track another one nearly 200 yards, after I solidly hit it through the chest/lungs bullseye area.

Not even a .44 magnum will decisively stop a deer, unless you hit the spine or brain, maybe. So it seems to me that anything less than a heavy shotgun slug from close range, or a large bore rifle slug in states where it is allowed, is just not a wise or humane way to hunt deer. They seem to be about as hard to kill as members of the cat family, and that came as a surprise to me. To hunt them with a bow, or low powered handgun, is just something I could not in good conscience do, although I know it is possible. And I know some of you probably take exception on the bow hunting comment, but I just see too many deer disappear to die an agonizing death and have the meat wasted. My personal entertainment is not worth that.

Because of what I have seen on how hard they are to kill, I would not even use the .357 Magnum. Model 29 in .44 Magnum? That is accurate enough for a scoped head or spine shot, and that will stop them right now.
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilOhio View Post
We've lost a number of deer so hit, because they ran long distances and could not be found before the meat was ruined. Our bow hunters have lost the most.
A deer properly hit will go down in short order...it doesn't have a choice. It will bleed out if it doesn't drop from shock from the initial bullet impact. I've killed dozens of deer with a bow and the only time I had to track one more than 50 yards was a bad shot that I made that hit too far back. Even then, I gave the deer time to lie down and it only went about 100 yards. If you're losing deer, it's because you aren't hitting them right or you're chasing them too soon.
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:32 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Everyone on the internet has "a friend" with a Glock that blew up. You'd think there were Glocks blowing up every day at ranges all over the US... I've never seen one. Not trying to give you a hard time, I just hate seeing this falsehood constantly perpetuated on internet forums.
Well, this isn't a falsehood Drag ole buddy! In fact, the friend is a forum member here so verifying the KB is relatively simple. Send a pm to Paul5388 and see what he has to say. The gun belonged to his son or son in law.

Here is how I see the Glock and KB issue. They happen, period. If you turn a blind eye to it, you are an idiot, plain and simple. They have happened for various reasons other than an unsupported chamber, got it. What I liken it to is this: Let's say you have a folding knife. That knife does not have a lock for the blade on it. No problem, it was designed that way. Now let's say you need to pry something with it and the only way you can git r did is to pry in the way that the knife closes. Would you put your fingers between the handle and the blade? No, that is, unless you are an idiot.

Same thing with a Glock, and a high pressure round especially, you just gotta know how to load for them. Plain and simple. That is why I NEVER load fast burning powders in a 40S&W nor a 9mm for that matter if it is going to be shot in a Glock. I just know that "it ain't got a lock" and "pry in the other direction", simple.

To ignore the well documented FACT that Glocks have had an exorbitant amount of KBs with factory ammo is more than silly. It is down right dangerous.
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:35 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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If you can get a revolver take a look at the 45 Auto Rim loads in Speer #8. The 240 gr bullet looks like 452423. Assuming you can work up to the top loads, you can get >1,000 fps. That will handle a deer.
Mine is a load of SR4756 and the 240gr LSWC for 1100fps out of a 4" M625JM. Like I said earlier, use one of the variants!
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:44 PM
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Most handgun calibers only develop about 10-50fps per inch of additional barrel. I haven't shot this over the chronograph YET but I will be letting you all know.

It is a Glock 21 SF (slim frame) with full Picatanny rail and a 6.2" Lone Wolf drop in barrel.
A bit hard to conceal in this configuration but VERY accurate!



Then, if you really want to take it to the next level with the 45ACP there is always this option! You could even put a scope on it if you want!



An you would LOOK SO COOL shooting a deer with one of them that words could not express it!
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:05 PM
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A deer properly hit will go down in short order...it doesn't have a choice. It will bleed out if it doesn't drop from shock from the initial bullet impact. I've killed dozens of deer with a bow and the only time I had to track one more than 50 yards was a bad shot that I made that hit too far back. Even then, I gave the deer time to lie down and it only went about 100 yards. If you're losing deer, it's because you aren't hitting them right or you're chasing them too soon.
Bomberpilot, I have to differ with you strongly, and the reason is that what you say makes total sense, but conflicts with what I have experienced and seen with my hunter friends. It is illogical, but it happens. It has nothing to do with "aren't hitting them right". The most extreme personal example was the destructive heart shot from about 50 feet, mentioned in my first post.

I hit this deer from almost point blank range, saw the hole open and saw tissue and blood fly out the other side. Unbelievably, the deer did a fast walk through 18" water and into very heavy thicket. It went several hundred feet and was difficult to find.

I field dressed it. I always save the heart and liver, which I love to eat. Field dressing this one, I couldn't find the heart, and thought...??? Finally, I realized a big flat pancake thing had once been the heart. That 575 grain slug had hit it squarely, and hydrostatic shock literally caused the heart to explode. So you think that deer was not hit right????

Almost the same thing happened two years earlier and 100 yards from that spot. I hit one broadside, from close, squarely in the bullseye area. But that deer, one of two standing side by side, took off like a shot. I thought I had missed it, but could not imagine how. I began walking in the general direction, just to check... About 100 yards away, there it lay, stone dead, and hit precisely where I had the cross hairs. The slug also passed all the way through and caused great exit hole damage. Not hit right??? I think not.

There is something about deer physiology, or stamina, or adrenalin, or something that I/we may not fully understand. But sometimes squarely hit ones drop like a stone, and sometimes they run like the wind...for a short time. It may have a lot to do with where you hit, in relation to the nerve system. Break that information transmission system, and it stops right there, but such a hit is a matter of luck.

I learn something new and amazing each hunting season.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:59 PM
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Spine shots ALWAYS drop them right there. Luck? Not from a tree stand!

Texas heart shot seems to work about the same.

If you want them to drop right where you shoot them, they need to be hit on a major bone. Through a front shoulder, into the boiler room and hopefully out the other side.

I am talking from a pistol caliber. Rifle with the right bullet, one that transfers all of it's energy, usually is a different story.

That has been my experience anyway.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by G.T. Smith View Post
I tried to use a 45 ACP round for deer hunting in Missouri. I heard that you couldn't use the FMJ so I got some rounds that were, IIRC 180 gr. They were a kind of cone shaped lead bullet. I don't reload and have no idea what the powder was or anything like that. Whatever it was it didn't work. I shot at a deer in an open field, about 75 yards off and the bullet made it little more than 2/3rds of the way out there.
I traded the gun for a Winchester .300 magnum. Problem solved.
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That's more your shooting than condemnation of the 45acp. It has barely enough gas for 25yd shots IMO, w/ the right bullet. FOr me, that would be a wide meplate, 200gr LFP @ 950fps. It will completely penetrate any deer broadside, but you run out of serious vel quickly past 50yds & most 45acp & shooters just aren't that accurate for 50yd shots & beyond. Can I hit a deer @ 100yds, sure, I routinely shoot my 1911 @ 100yds & score hits on man size metal sil, but that isn't the same as placing a 44mag within 3" of POA @ the same distance. If you wanted to use a JHP< the 200gr XTP running the same vel is a pretty good bullet & still likely to exit a broadside shot, doing more damage than the LFP.
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Old 07-21-2011, 12:01 AM
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I DON'T like Glocks at all, but I have never witnessed or heard of one blowing up. If nothing else, they are reliable. The 23 is the most popular weapon in LEO circles. That would NOT be so, if they were blowing up frequently.....
Actually, they do KB, more often than you think, mostly from poor handloading practices, but many LEA exp GLcok KB in 1st Gen G22 back in the day when LEA used reloaded ammo for practice. Talk to the former Burbank PD training officer, not uncommon at all. Glocks have also been known to fire out of battery, not uncommon either. Also prone to limp wristing, especially in the 40. They are not the bullet proof guns they would have you believe they are. The reason most LEA buy them, they are cheap, light wt, reasonably accurate & they don't rust from poor maintance. Yes, I own some GLocks, just don't care all that much for them.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:16 AM
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Bomberpilot, I have to differ with you strongly, and the reason is that what you say makes total sense, but conflicts with what I have experienced and seen with my hunter friends. It is illogical, but it happens. It has nothing to do with "aren't hitting them right". The most extreme personal example was the destructive heart shot from about 50 feet, mentioned in my first post.

I hit this deer from almost point blank range, saw the hole open and saw tissue and blood fly out the other side. Unbelievably, the deer did a fast walk through 18" water and into very heavy thicket. It went several hundred feet and was difficult to find.

I field dressed it. I always save the heart and liver, which I love to eat. Field dressing this one, I couldn't find the heart, and thought...??? Finally, I realized a big flat pancake thing had once been the heart. That 575 grain slug had hit it squarely, and hydrostatic shock literally caused the heart to explode. So you think that deer was not hit right????

Almost the same thing happened two years earlier and 100 yards from that spot. I hit one broadside, from close, squarely in the bullseye area. But that deer, one of two standing side by side, took off like a shot. I thought I had missed it, but could not imagine how. I began walking in the general direction, just to check... About 100 yards away, there it lay, stone dead, and hit precisely where I had the cross hairs. The slug also passed all the way through and caused great exit hole damage. Not hit right??? I think not.

There is something about deer physiology, or stamina, or adrenalin, or something that I/we may not fully understand. But sometimes squarely hit ones drop like a stone, and sometimes they run like the wind...for a short time. It may have a lot to do with where you hit, in relation to the nerve system. Break that information transmission system, and it stops right there, but such a hit is a matter of luck.

I learn something new and amazing each hunting season.
What you posted earlier was "What has impressed me most, and was completely unexpected, is how difficult it is to kill a deer, even with a heavy, high power projectile going directly through a vital area, expending most of its energy. We've lost a number of deer so hit, because they ran long distances and could not be found before the meat was ruined. Our bow hunters have lost the most."

In my response I said deer will die in short order and I stand by that statement. A heart shot deer will usually take off on a "death run", sometimes even running into trees. But those deer will be dead within seconds (just as in your example above). A deer can cover a lot of ground in a couple of seconds, but a heart shot deer will usually leave a very wide blood trail. You should not be losing deer if they are properly hit. Yes, you may have to trail it, but it won't be far. A deer that runs long distances, as you previously said, was not hit in the heart/lung area. Liver shot deer can run a long way without leaving much of a trail, same with a gut shot...still fatal hits but not very quick. But, a deer so hit, if left alone, will lay down very quickly (usually within 100 yards). Given enough time (were talking hours here), it will die right there. If you pursue it too soon, it will jump up and run for miles. If you're looking to drop a deer on the spot, break the front shoulder bone or go for a spine/neck shot.

And as for your statement "It has nothing to do with "aren't hitting them right".", it has everything to do with hitting them right. You do your job and you eat venison. There's nothing magical about a deer...hit them in their vitals and it's over. Period.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:28 AM
Dragon88 Dragon88 is offline
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Actually, they do KB, more often than you think, mostly from poor handloading practices, but many LEA exp GLcok KB in 1st Gen G22 back in the day when LEA used reloaded ammo for practice. Talk to the former Burbank PD training officer, not uncommon at all.
Old, outdated information that is no longer correct. 1st Gen Glock 22s? Come on, there have been some improvements in the last 21 years. Not uncommon to fire out of battery? Show me even one that was caused by the gun.

More unsubstantiated misinformation that continues to circulate the internet...
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:55 AM
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I am glad the .45 ACP is not legal here,if I saw someone using one I would turn them in !. It borders on cruelty in my book,use enough gun,it's not .45 ACP ! .357 Mag is not legal here either.Ego's are huge for those who insist on a marginal hunting cartridge.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:27 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Old, outdated information that is no longer correct. 1st Gen Glock 22s? Come on, there have been some improvements in the last 21 years. Not uncommon to fire out of battery? Show me even one that was caused by the gun.

More unsubstantiated misinformation that continues to circulate the internet...
Drag,

You are not being logical here. 1st off, Glocks do not need defended, they need to be used. They are ugly, blocky, steel and plastic when put together like they do work, and, they work well. They are more than adequately functional and superbly accurate BUT as long as there is just ONE first generation Glock 22 out there from the offending era, the information that they may be susceptible to a KB is good info.

Now, here is one way to get around that little piece of info: Have Glock do a free safety upgrade to those early pistols.

It also needs to be noted that they are not the only firearms with this problem. Remember the 38Super 1911's that had the same problem? Or how about the Browning High Power that I and several others have owned and had a KB in?

To dismiss this knowledge as outdated only perpetuates the possibility that some unsuspecting novice handloader might ignorantly cause a dangerous situation in the handgun they own. I for one am not ready to be a contributing factor in having that happen so, I will continue my warnings about reloading high pressure calibers in handguns with unsupported chambers of which, Glock is one.

This is silly to me. It is like those two school kids that are in the parking lot yelling at each other at the top of their lungs and one is yelling "Chevy" and the other "Ford" all the while not realizing that both can breakdown for various reasons.

So, if you want to say that the info isn't any good for the pistols that Glock makes today, say that but please include the disclaimer that the early versions had some real problems.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:10 PM
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Bomberman, much of what you say agrees with my observations, but not at the 100%-of-the-time level. Which was my point; why I said I am always learning something new. For example, when you wrote...

"...but a heart shot deer will usually leave a very wide blood trail. You should not be losing deer if they are properly hit. Yes, you may have to trail it, but it won't be far."

The key words are "usually" and "should not be". How true. But I shot one squarely through the heart and it took off running through brush; also thought I missed. Started following, but no snow. Couldn't find blood, not a bit. After about 200 feet, I found a few droplets, on saplings. A little further, it was as though somebody with a big red brush had painted all the trees on either side. Then about 100 yards from the shot, there lay the deer, dead. This was "but sometimes", and "in my personal experience", and "when solidly hit in a vital area".

I guess it gets to one's definition of "far" and "long distances". I think 100 yards, especially in dense growth, is "far".

Where you quoted me out of context:

"And as for your statement "It has nothing to do with "aren't hitting them right".", it has everything to do with hitting them right. You do your job and you eat venison. There's nothing magical about a deer...hit them in their vitals and it's over. Period."

If only life, and all of this world, were black and white.

That quote of what I wrote narrowly referred to specific examples of accurate, should-be-fatal hits in my personal experience, doing the job "right", by anybody's definition...the context was deer hit solidly, such as heart shots. By no means do they reliably drop, virtually always, as you imply. Sometimes yes, but quite often much later and further away. Neither you nor I can accurately predict which it will be. About that I have no doubt, again based on experience. And not because of poor hunter skill. Nothing about deer hunting is so cut and dried, clear and predictable. It's just how it is. I think most guys here would agree, and have their own stories to tell.

The point of my postings was to relate some unusual personal deer hunting experiences which have taught me that dropping deer instantly, using good equipment and good skill, is not nearly as predictable as you so adamantly contend. You may disagree with me, but your opinions do not cancel out my personal observations.

Nobody here, or out in the field, has deer and deer hunting all figured out and rendered predictable. It's a lot of fun, but full of surprises that don't fit anybody's rigid prediction of what is going to happen, under what circumstances, when, and no exceptions. Good skill, preparation, and equipment hopefully tilts the odds in our favor, but there are still some wild cards. And I guess that makes it worth buying the license.

And all of the above makes me consider the original question, about use of the .45 ACP round to hunt deer. To all of the built-in uncertainties of hunting deer with the best of weaponry, why add to that the use of such a marginal cartridge, even if you load it to the very maximum limits of its potential? Around here, we go through too much to even get a good shot at a really fine deer. Why stack the odds of bagging it against ourselves?
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Old 07-22-2011, 04:44 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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I have a range report. I took the Thompson to the range along with the Glock 21 to see what the longer barrel would give me. The Glock is the standard 5" barrel, the Thompson has a 16.5" one. The load was the standard 5.0gr of Bullseye under a 230gr RN bullet.

From the Glock, it developed the standard 800fps. Nothing earth shattering here! The exact same load in the longer barrel developed 1000fps. Now, you should be able to plug those numbers into your ballistic software and see what kind of energy you can expect at what ranges.

And with those numbers you can see that Bullseye develops 17fps for each inch of barrel with this load.
Slower powders will give higher velocities. Maybe I will have to play around with that in the future.
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Old 07-23-2011, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Dragon88 View Post
Old, outdated information that is no longer correct. 1st Gen Glock 22s? Come on, there have been some improvements in the last 21 years. Not uncommon to fire out of battery? Show me even one that was caused by the gun.

More unsubstantiated misinformation that continues to circulate the internet...
Out of date or not, they did KB. IMO, a gun firing OOB IS a gun problem, not ammo. If the rounds won't chamber, that is an ammo problem. If it still fires OOB, that is a gun problem.
If you think Glocks do NOT KB, here are a few pics. I don't know the circumstance, but I have ben shooting long enough to have seen my share of GLocks go up w/ reloads & factory ammo. Yes there are other KB guns here too, but to think Glocks do NOT KB, you are just not paying attention. http://www.google.com/search?q=Glock...2&ved=0CBsQsAQ

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Old 07-25-2011, 09:11 AM
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I read this entire thread and was amazed that a 45 ACP was not considered a good hunting caliber by many. I think that caliber was used a long time ago in a very far away land and it dispatched a few water buffalo without a lot of fanfare and that’s a lot more animal than a whitetail or mulie.

I don’t think there’s any difference in killing power when a 0.452” cast slug weighing 240 to 260 grains is fired from a 45ACP or a 45 Colt at 950fps. Put in a heavier recoil spring in the 1911 platform and bump that velocity up to 1,050fps or so, if you feel you have a need for more power on either a whitetail or mulie.

To answer the OP’s question – If using commercial (factory) the 230 grain bonded jacketed bullets will provide the best chance for complete penetration (2-holes) – if you want to go with the 185 grain jacketed bullet the Barnes 185 TAC-XP will probably give you 2-holes as well.

Suppliers of commercial ammo which will more than meet your needs are Remington Bonded Golden Saber (not to be confused by the BJHP Golden Saber ammo, which means Brass Jacketed Hollow Point) and Winchester PDX1, which is also bonded. I’m sure there are other bonded versions out there that will work just as well. The non-bonded varieties will also work very well on thin skinned animals but aren’t as reliable relative to punching 2-holes – they will normally reach the vitals like any other 0.452” bullet.

Here’s a supplier of the 185 grain Barnes: 45 ACP SOLID DEFENSE X (SDX) Barnes 185 gr. HP +P

If you prefer cast, then you can go 200 to 255 grain hardcast and make 2-holes in deer sized game. Load your own or look at Buffalo Bore for commercial loads. BB has a couple, a 255 grain FN running at 925fps and 1,075fps. The hotter one needs a heavier recoil spring and maybe a buffer. Probably could punch 2-holes in hogs & black bear.
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:46 AM
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I shoot several mule deer every year while working, deer of all sizes, that have been struck by vehicles and injured. I shot one this morning about 2:00, in fact. Often a dozen or more in the fall and winter, fewer in the spring and summer. Sometimes their injuries are obviously massive internal organ damage immobilizing them, while other times it is one or two broken legs that greatly impairs their running and jumping.

The areas I have to shoot deer are generally along the double lane roads circling the valley that are at the bases of the foothills of our mountains. Much of it is farm or ranch property, some belongs to a large mining concern with little development or structures, some is fairly well filled with residential housing and much of it can have heavy traffic. So, I have to take shots which minimize potential damage downrange, which impacts what part of the deer I can shoot and the angle of the shots I can take.

The first 10 years, I carried a 6 inch .357 Magnum usually loaded with Federal 125 grain JHP ammo. Every single round I shot into a deer completely penetrated and exited the part of the body I shot, be it chest and shoulders, neck or head. None of them needed 2 shots before expiring.

I have carried a Colt 1911 of one sort or another since returning to uniformed assignment for the last 8 years. Either a 5 inch or a 4-1/4 inch. The department has progressed through Federal's original Hydro Shock developments, first the one with the post in the cavity, then without the post but still with a truncated bullet profile, then the rounded ogive without the post, now the bonded HST. 230 grain, all of them, and Plus-P.

The bullets have still entered and exited the deer every time, chest and shoulder, neck or head shots. The deer seem to physically react less to the .45 than the .357, taking longer to die, it seems, sometimes moving a little further before they go down, and a few times I shot them a second time to hurry things along.

The longest shot was, strangely, on the biggest deer that was the least damaged. He was a very big 4 point mule buck. The motorcycle that hit him broke both of the deers front legs, about half-way between the hooves and the torso. He was hobbling along, about 30-35 yards from the road edge, trying to climb the hillside bank the road had been cut into. He took about half a step after one broadside, heart and lung shot, fell down and had stopped breathing before I could climb up to him.

If I had to shoot deer with a .45 ACP, I would use a 230 grain expanding bullet at Plus-P velocities, either factory or handload, and I would keep my shots to to 35 yards max and then be picky with my angles. I would take shots with the .357 Magnum out to 75 yards if the shot was clear and angle was correct.

The normal range at which you encounter the deer, as well as the size of the deer, would determine, for me, if I would use the .45. I couldn't ever see choosing it over the magnum revolver rounds if given the choice.
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:30 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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The normal range at which you encounter the deer, as well as the size of the deer, would determine, for me, if I would use the .45. I couldn't ever see choosing it over the magnum revolver rounds if given the choice.
I agree with this statement. What happens for most folks, and this is what the hunting rules here are dealing with, is that they get a really cool looking gun, head to the woods, try to use it at a gazillion yards and end up only wounding an animal. Dispatching wounded deer at close range is one thing, hunting them to a possible 100 yard shot or better makes the good old 45ACP a poor choice unless, maybe fired from a carbine.

FWIW
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Old 07-26-2011, 05:34 PM
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Default I wonder...

Seems as though, what with the reports of 45 ACPs so terrible on deer, we're lucky to have ever killed a foe in combat with one. I mean, combat, adrenaline and all. And all those deer killed with cartridges such as the 38-40 and 44-40. Oh, well. "Just sayin", myself, now.
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cooperduper View Post
Seems as though, what with the reports of 45 ACPs so terrible on deer, we're lucky to have ever killed a foe in combat with one. I mean, combat, adrenaline and all. And all those deer killed with cartridges such as the 38-40 and 44-40. Oh, well. "Just sayin", myself, now.
I have to agree when you are talking about taking game that is of the same or less weight and volume of a grown man. Whitetails in the state of Michigan more often than not fall into this catagory. Also the same can be said for shooting distance. As indicated simular weight and velocity bullets worked in 1873 and will still work today.
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:10 PM
blueridge123 blueridge123 is offline
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Default Blueridge

Anyone have a source for WIDE SMOOTH triggers...I mean a half inch wide, or wider...?

for the S&W model 10.
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  #47  
Old 02-22-2019, 10:53 PM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
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Originally Posted by G.T. Smith View Post
I tried to use a 45 ACP round for deer hunting in Missouri. I heard that you couldn't use the FMJ so I got some rounds that were, IIRC 180 gr. They were a kind of cone shaped lead bullet. I don't reload and have no idea what the powder was or anything like that. Whatever it was it didn't work. I shot at a deer in an open field, about 75 yards off and the bullet made it little more than 2/3rds of the way out there.
I traded the gun for a Winchester .300 magnum. Problem solved.
Peace,
gordon
Not much information to be gained from your post, except that the bullet shape was probably the worst possible for causing good tissue destruction.
Powder, powder charge, velocity, and detailled bullet information unknown. Sounds like a very light target load.
75 yards is probably beyond the ethical shooting range for any game with the .45ACP.

As far as I'm concerned, 15 yards is beyond the ethical shooting range with an unknown load like that.

Last edited by smoothshooter; 02-22-2019 at 10:55 PM.
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  #48  
Old 02-23-2019, 12:29 AM
Hillbilly77 Hillbilly77 is offline
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Originally Posted by smoothshooter View Post
Not much information to be gained from your post, except that the bullet shape was probably the worst possible for causing good tissue destruction.
Powder, powder charge, velocity, and detailled bullet information unknown. Sounds like a very light target load.
75 yards is probably beyond the ethical shooting range for any game with the .45ACP.

As far as I'm concerned, 15 yards is beyond the ethical shooting range with an unknown load like that.
Since the post you quoted is almost 8 years old, I’m sure he has seen the error of his ways.
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  #49  
Old 02-23-2019, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cooperduper View Post
Seems as though, what with the reports of 45 ACPs so terrible on deer, we're lucky to have ever killed a foe in combat with one. I mean, combat, adrenaline and all. And all those deer killed with cartridges such as the 38-40 and 44-40. Oh, well. "Just sayin", myself, now.
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Originally Posted by REP View Post
I have to agree when you are talking about taking game that is of the same or less weight and volume of a grown man. Whitetails in the state of Michigan more often than not fall into this catagory. Also the same can be said for shooting distance. As indicated simular weight and velocity bullets worked in 1873 and will still work today.
There is a very important difference you are missing. In combat nobody stands up and uses their 1911 to take 50 or 100 yard shots at the enemy if they have any other choice. A handgun is reserved for use as a last-resort. The rifle is the weapon of choice
if one is available.

And that's really what we're talking about here - why anyone would make the CHOICE to shoot at a man-sized animal that isn't attacking them with a handgun caliber meant for use as an up close and personal self defense sidearm.
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Old 02-23-2019, 04:35 AM
alwslate alwslate is offline
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