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  #51  
Old 09-10-2011, 07:46 AM
Dragon88 Dragon88 is offline
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I can tell you, that H110 and W296 are exactly the same powder and they have always been exactly the same powder. Not similar, or like but exactly the same powder. It is produced, put into large drums and then repackaged into consumer units of both H110 and W296.
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Do you know of, any reports of different accuracy levels between the two powders as I have reported here?
What do you not understand about "exactly the same powder"? If your data showed any differences, that merely means it is bad data. The ability to take this discussion round and round after even a Hodgdon employee has settled the matter for you is simply incredible.
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  #52  
Old 09-10-2011, 12:08 PM
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dragon88,

I am afraid you are the one who keeps beating the so-called dead horse.

You even showed up to rudely press your point to me on another discussion.

Nobody is forcing you to use my suggestion so why are you so torn with this?

I posted that for ME the results of MY shooting indicated that a person might want to test BOTH powders out of their handgun for accuracy.

I used testing methods considered acceptable by almost every gunwriter since 1972 and by every handgun user who I have ever met in 38 years of shooting.

The only fly in my data is that I shot only one set of 5 shot groups and should have shot more. But again, many gunwriters and shooters have done the same thing.

You keep focusing on the issue of the fact that H110 and W296, as they are manufactured are the same powders.

Everyone here, including me agrees to that.

My statement is that when fired from the bench the accuracy levels MAY DIFFER. And that may be due to lot differences, same as if you bought two different lots of Bullseye.

My belief is therefore if one wants to trully know the difference in accuracy of ANY powder, including H110 and W296, One should shoot both.

I have stated I have done this test with H110 and W296 several times in 38 years. I have ALWAYS had differences in accuracy. Sometimes the differences are slight, and sometimes the differences are quite large, as displayed in my original post back in February of 2010.

Therefore I do not consider my data as "bad data". I am experienced enough, have shot enough, know enough about accurate shooting from a bench to know that I held tight enough that day to trust my "data".

If you, or anyone else wishes to prove me wrong, then do exactly as I did or even better, to the point of using a solid, mechanical pistol rest and produce your data here.

If you honestly pursue a test of your own I seriously would like to know the results.

I have no qualms about the truth, even if proven wrong. But I have not heard one person in all of these debates state that they have done their shooting as I did, or with better techniques, to refute my statements.

All I have heard is that essentially the "maker of the two powders says they are the same as they come from the factory". I have never disagreed with that statement.

Again, they are the same from the factory. Again, they MAY shoot different from the bench, MAYBE due to lot differences.
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  #53  
Old 09-10-2011, 12:16 PM
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I would like to add this.

EVERY gunwriter and shooter I have read of, or seen has ALWAYS shot their RIFLES from a bench, upon a personally chosen rest. Hopefully, to their desires, as solid as can be.

They have shot groups of anywhere from three shots to over twenty at ranges all the way to 1,000 yards.

Their "data" has, as far as I know, always been considered valid. As tested by THEM.

All of the above is the same for handguns.

Very rarely has anyone reported accuracy tests on rifles and handguns done in a sealed labratory, with a mechanical rest.

I have done the same as thousands of shooters have to attempt to establish an accurate load for ME in MY handguns.

I stated that this is what worked for ME only. I only suggested others might try it.

If you do not want to try it, don't knock me around.

THIS is why I won't give the discussion up. I am not wrong.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:43 PM
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:45 PM
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Lot to lot variations is the ONLY reason for the differences seen from lately manufactured powder, um, period.

Here is a test you can do to see if that is true or not. Go 40 miles away from where you usually buy your powder. Or 100 for that matter, buy a can of the same kind of powder as you now use ONLY make sure you get a different lot. There is a number on the can, don't buy one that has the same one!

Then, load them side by side, through the same press, same weights, same bullets, same primers same everything except lots of powder, go to the range and shoot them like you always do, because that is all that will ever matter to any of us, how WE shoot OUR loads, and take your data the same way. Make careful notes, take some pictures, share.


Simple, and I would like to know how things work out for you. Oh, make sure you have a chronograph too. That would be useful information as well!

Take pictures of the case heads and primers, that is always good to look at.

This is not a satirical post either. Do it and let's see the report.

Do one for W296 and one for H110, that would be interesting as well. Different lots then compared to each other.

I think I am talking myself into something I don't have time for! I will resist, you do it!
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  #56  
Old 09-10-2011, 02:21 PM
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smith crazy,

You are correct. And I am going to do this.

I am going to load two different lots of H110. I will also load H110 and W296 of two different lots.

All of the rest I already do as to consistency of reloads.

I will shoot the same revolver, the M27-2 and the same load, the Speer 158 grain hollowpoint.

I will TRY to enlist the aid of one or two other very competent shooters to shoot the same weapon and ammo loaded by me. This will remove the factor of "only me" out of the equation.

I will take a chronograph as you suggested as I too have thought that also would be interesting.

All groups will be 15 shots each, not five.

My belief, all along is that lot variations of the same powder MAY cause a change in accuracy.

If I am wrong I will admit it. If I am proven right I expect my opponents here to admit it.
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  #57  
Old 09-10-2011, 03:44 PM
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If I may add, they must be new jars of powder from this Century
Not jars that have been sitting around for years or a quote from the old Johnny Carson show. "hermetically sealed inside a mayonnaise jar underneath Funk and Wagnalls porch since noon today"

I am more interested in numbers from the chronograph, the rest of the stuff is subjective and subject to human error
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  #58  
Old 09-10-2011, 03:59 PM
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"White is white! No it's not, white is black; no matter what anybody says I know it's not white but black!"

Ok maybe white is white but, then, have you heard of anybody reporting that white is really black-besides me that is?

This is insanity!

Bruce

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Old 09-10-2011, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post
I will shoot the same revolver, the M27-2 and the same load, the Speer 158 grain hollowpoint.

I will TRY to enlist the aid of one or two other very competent shooters to shoot the same weapon and ammo loaded by me. This will remove the factor of "only me" out of the equation.
The only thing you will be measuring is human error.
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:20 PM
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Post by Dragon88,

"The only thing you will be measuring is human error."

Dragon88, how do you decide what is the most accurate load in your handguns?
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:23 PM
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Posted by Rule3,

"If I may add, they must be new jars of powder from this Century
Not jars that have been sitting around for years or a quote from the old Johnny Carson show. "hermetically sealed inside a mayonnaise jar underneath Funk and Wagnalls porch since noon today"

Even though there is defininetly enough factual evidenc to prove that older powders, well cared for will perform as new off the shelf.........yes I am going to have to buy a new canister of H110 and W296.

Although I already have a lifetime supply of each.

Maybe you folks should pay for the powder!!!
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:42 PM
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smith crazy,

And I am going to do this.



If I am wrong I will admit it. If I am proven right I expect my opponents here to admit it.
Tell me where to send the price of one of the cans of powder. I'll do that much to help!

As for the admitting part, don't expect too much, friend. I have learned much by being around as long as I have. Mostly about human nature. Most human's nature is not going to allow them to admit anything short of their own perfection!

In fact, that happens to prove another Scripture too:

Proverbs 20:6 KJV Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:51 AM
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smith crazy,

Thanks for the offer but I can handle it I was just kidding about the cost of the new powders, it gives me an excuse to visit the gunshops on Monday!!

I was going to do this anyhow and then you posted more impetus for me to do so.

As for anybody reversing their opinions, if I am fortunate to be proven correct, I suspect it may not happen.

I do suspect when I shoot 15 rounds per group versus only five the difference in groups may shrink. It will be interesting to see.

Again, if I am proven wrong that too is a good thing as we will be closer to a "truth".

Until the advent of gunwriters shooting more than 5 rounds per group (3 per rifle) I suspected that the gunwriters really didn't want to seek the true proven accuracy of a firearm or components. To do so would have probably brought tarnation on their heads from the manufacturers whose products did not fair so well. I don't blame them.
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  #64  
Old 09-11-2011, 11:07 AM
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He'll only quit when we quit. Ray Charles can see that.

During the last several years of participating in gun forums, no doubt, no other powder has had more featured discussions than 296/H110.
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post
Posted by Rule3,

"If I may add, they must be new jars of powder from this Century
Not jars that have been sitting around for years or a quote from the old Johnny Carson show. "hermetically sealed inside a mayonnaise jar underneath Funk and Wagnalls porch since noon today"

Even though there is defininetly enough factual evidenc to prove that older powders, well cared for will perform as new off the shelf.........yes I am going to have to buy a new canister of H110 and W296.

Although I already have a lifetime supply of each.

Maybe you folks should pay for the powder!!!
Yes, I will agree with you on the powder storage and still working correctly. But (just for example) if your jar of powder was 5 years old, there may have been some slight changes in formulation or the specific lot variation.

If your jars of both powders are relatively new then just use those. There is no reason to spend good money on powder you already have or do not need. In the long run or overall scheme of things I doubt it will matter

As a Marine we trust you to be on the Honor system.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:28 PM
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Rule3, thank you, I will provide pics as documentation.
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:07 PM
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He'll only quit when we quit. Ray Charles can see that.

During the last several years of participating in gun forums, no doubt, no other powder has had more featured discussions than 296/H110.
Could always change to W-231 vs HP-38!
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:21 PM
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Could always change to W-231 vs HP-38!
I agree same with 231 and hp-38 they are the same.
For gods sake powders change from lot to lot! and will shoot a little different And even the same powder from the same can does on different days of weather
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:32 PM
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I agree same with 231 and hp-38 they are the same.
For gods sake powders change from lot to lot! and will shoot a little different And even the same powder from the same can does on different days of weather

I have both HP 38 and Win 231. When the weather finally breaks and it is not a sub topic jungle around here I can pull out the chronograph and test those in 38 special or whatever!

I only have H110 so not W 296 to compare, I mainly use 2400 anyway.
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:40 PM
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I have both HP 38 and Win 231. When the weather finally breaks and it is not a sub topic jungle around here I can pull out the chronograph and test those in 38 special or whatever!

I only have H110 so not W 296 to compare, I mainly use 2400 anyway.
I have a bottle of Red Dot my dad gave me and a Bottle I bought loaded both the same and ran a test while a friend had his Chronograph. there Were not the same so I bet that other powders will be the same way.
Lot per lot they are not 100%
If not pushing it 100% max load what would it matter? Start low work up
Talkng powders is like talking bullets cast vs plated vs jacketed
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Old 09-11-2011, 04:49 PM
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No, they never will be. There are so many other variables involved, hence this whole round about discussion. They are the same powders but due to the alignment of the stars and moon phase something will be different.
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:00 PM
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Parameters:

All groups to be shot on the same day.
All loads to be loaded on the same day, same setup, same volume/measure/weight of powder.
Same lot of bullets.
Same brand of cases, same lot if possible, all the same length.
Same primers, same lots.
The firearm should be cleaned, bore snake is permissible, between groups.
Of course, same distance, targets, firearms, rest, shooters, per lots.
If "joe" shoots H110 then "joe" shoots W296 and those groups are compared.
If "joe" shoots W296 lot 1 then "joe" shoots W296 lot 2 and those groups are compared.
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:51 PM
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You legt out Joe shoots gun has fun no matter what the groups say or do not say... Do groups talk?
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Old 09-11-2011, 06:14 PM
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Thank you 340six,

That is the only point I am trying to make. Even the "same" powders MAY shoot different. You will not know unless you test them.

If they shoot different for you that is all you need to know since they are shot in your gun by you.

If you partner shoots different groups, then the best load shot is what is best for him not you.

If you think you jerked when you should have squeezed, if you are a competent, shot you will know that and re-run the test.

Hence, when someone says "What's the best powder for my .38 Special?" And well meaning folks post their pet loads...I contend the most helpful answer is, "You must test a lot of powders to know that answer."

There are powders more suited for magnum loads or target loads and so testing a magnum powder in a target load might NOT be the best answer.

Granted I pulled in a lot of folks with my original headline on the thread of H110 and W296 not being the same, but inside the message I clarified my statement, and henceforth had to literally spell it out many times over.

And yet some folks do not seem to understand what I have said.

And, I contend that almost all of us do our testing on a bench, over a rest, at whatever yardage we choose. Very few shooters and writers use a mechanical rest to test their loads.

Any competent shooter, with good eyes, can definitely create a rest system of his/her's design, usually using sandbags, that will eliminate a great amount of human error as long as they are practicing good sighting and trigger techniques.

I will admit that if Unique is THE load for my .45 Long Colt (I said that on purpose to get THAT argument started!!!) I will not retest a new canister of Unique. I just "bet-on-the-come" that my chosen truly same powder is going to probably/maybe shoot as it did before.

Because of what I have found out about H110 and W296 I probably should re-test that new canister of Unique when I crack it open, if it is a new lot.

I, years ago in about 1974, with my first S&W .357, did not know that both H110 and W296 were the same. I bought those two powders and 2400. I tested as I did here, off a bench at 25 yards, from a rest for five shots each. As I said before that was the "accepted" technique then as well as now, for most folks.

I found that in that handgun H110 was the most accurate. Years later I tested more .357s and .44 Magnums, still unaware of the "sameness" of the two powders. Again I had different levels of accuracy.

Then I learned that the two powders are the same. I still tested them and still found them to shoot to different levels of accuracy.

I can only attest this to the difference in powder lots. Which if true could mean that two cans of different lots of any "same" powder may do this.
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Old 09-12-2011, 12:43 PM
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My name is Mike Daly. I am the Customer Service Manager for Hodgdon Powder Company. I was asked to come on here and difinitivly answer a question concerning H110 and Winchester 296.

I do not intend to debate with anyone. I do not have time to monitor this thread for activity or for follow up questions so I intend to be clear about my answer. If anyone wants to discuss this topic or any other, contact Hodgdon Powder Company at 800-622-4366,

Are H110 and W296 the same powder?

Yes, they are the same powder. They have always been the same powder. The only difference between H110 and 296 is the label. Even back when we had nothing to do with Winchester Propellants, H110 and 296 were the same powder. The powder is made in bulk in the only ball powder plant in North America. Some powder from the bulk lot goes into cans with H110 labels and some gets a Winchester label.

Why do you see data from the same company for both powder that do not match? Sometimes the data is completed days, moths or even years apart. If a different lot# of bullets, primers or brass is used, the data will be different. If a different person shoots the data, it will be different. if it is shot on a different day, the data will be different. It is unlikely that the can of 296 in a lab is the same lot# as the can of H110 allowing for some slight variation between lot#s.

OK, this should end this thread although I doubt it will. You have the number if you want to discuss it further.

Mike

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Old 09-12-2011, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
I can only attest this to the difference in powder lots. Which if true could mean that two cans of different lots of any "same" powder may do this.
BINGO!

It is common to get different results from the SAME CONTAINER simply due to random statistical error. You usually get larger variation between lots. Until the variation is consistently greater than that found between lots, it is meaningless to claim difference from another powder.
That's why proper testing always includes a mathematical "test of statistical significance" to determine at what amount of variation we should start considering the results significant, and to what confidence.
With the number of variables in loading a cartridge besides which powder, including subconcious shooter selection, it would be necessary for the shooters NOT to know what was being tested, and to identify the cartirdges by number only: "double blind testing" .
It would also probably require shooting hundreds, if not thousands, of cartridges to reach a high level of confidence that the difference was significant. Small samples tend to show meaningless variation.

Like Mr Daly said, it's the same powder, period, and you will get variation due to many factors.
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Old 09-12-2011, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MDaly View Post
OK, this should end this thread although I doubt it will.
Thanks for posting, and you are right on both counts. Somehow, someone will find a way to keep their argument going...
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDaly View Post
The powder is made in bulk in the only ball powder plant in North America.
St Mark's in Crawfordville, Florida?

Last edited by MakeMyNight; 09-12-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:28 PM
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Mr. Daly,

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

To everyone else. I have said it often enough in this thread and in the original one.

H110 and W296 are the same powders as manufactured and distributed.

But it appears that lot differences may alter accuracy levels at the shooting bench.

I have found this to be the case in my loads shot by me at a shooting bench. I found large enough differences in some loads that either one powder or the other was the best for that load.

Therefore I treat them as different unless I am shooting the same lot.

If want to maintain that level of accuracy I will stay with that powder and that lot.

I will be testing two canisters of H110 and two canisters of W296. All of different lot numbers as marked on those canisters.

BUT they may or may not be the same lots as shipped from the original manufacturer.

I will be using another shooter as well.

I will report the results in a new thread.

If I do not find differences in accuracy, I will state I was wrong in my statements and tests on H110 and W296.

If I am right, the ball is in someone else's court.
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:34 PM
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I publicly apologize to Win75 for hijacking his original thread.

I did so because I felt my integrity has been publicly insulted here and I responded.

I will also PM Win75 for hijacking his thread.
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Old 09-13-2011, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post
I publicly apologize to Win75 for hijacking his original thread.

I did so because I felt my integrity has been publicly insulted here and I responded.

I will also PM Win75 for hijacking his thread.
No need to apologize. I am just sorry that I got this big hub-bub started.

My #6 Nosler manual lists H-110 at about 100 fps faster than 296. I was looking for a deer hunting load with the most velocity.

I have since checked the on-line Hodgdon data and it shows the same components/same load for H-110 and 296 at 100 fps faster than the #6 Nosler manual.

I will do more homework from now on before bothering you folks here on the forum.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:19 PM
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Thank you.

Please stay on the forum and your original question was a valid one. This is a great place to be if you like firearms.
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