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Old 09-05-2011, 11:28 AM
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Default Question about H110 and 296.

I am loading some 180gr. Nosler Partitions for my 8 3/8 inch S&W 686.

My Nosler manual lists H110 from a starting load of 12.5gr. to a max of 13.5gr. The bottle that the powder is in lists the H110 at 13.5 max also.

I lists the 296 loads from 12.0gr. to a max of 13.0gr.

The H110 loads are faster so I chose this for my powder.

Now the question...I have a magazine called Reloading and it has one article in it about powders. It is from 2009. This magazine says that H110 and 296 are the exact same powders and come from the same spout then given a different label.

How can they be the same yet the Nosler manual and the bottle of H110 has a .5gr. difference in loading data from the 296?
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Old 09-05-2011, 11:43 AM
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Different lots of powder of the same powder may have slightly different burn speeds. Perhaps the loading manual publishers used different lots of powder or different test guns or components - or all three were the case.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:37 PM
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The powders are exactly the same.

As already mentioned, different powder lots, different test, different day, different everything.

The main thing is do not reduce either powder more than 3%


For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.
Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

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Old 09-05-2011, 01:18 PM
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Default h110 vs. 296

H110/296 muzzle blast and muzzle flash is horrendous in the .357 Magnum. Velocity may be a bit lower, but Alliant #2400 should be at least as accurate with noticeably less blast and flash.
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Old 09-05-2011, 01:25 PM
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I can't wait for someone to reply here claiming they are actually different powders, and post their "data" showing it's true.

Ignore reloading data from the manuals on these powders. Go straight to Hodgdon's online reloading center, and you will get good data there with appropriate minimum and max charges.
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Old 09-05-2011, 02:48 PM
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.5g ain't gonna make or break you, that's about 4% of the total. The powder could vary that much lot to lot. Like mentioned above go to their web site or give them a call, your overall length also plays an important role in pressure, a difference of .010-.020 is substantial.
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Old 09-05-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon88 View Post
I can't wait for someone to reply here claiming they are actually different powders, and post their "data" showing it's true.

Ignore reloading data from the manuals on these powders. Go straight to Hodgdon's online reloading center, and you will get good data there with appropriate minimum and max charges.
Someone did a while back

H-110 and W-296 Are Not The Same
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Old 09-05-2011, 03:15 PM
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Both H-110 and 296 are manufactured by St.Marks Powders, formerly Primex Technologies. Several years ago, before Hodgdon became the distributor for Winchester powders, I contacted what was then Primex. I spoke with a production engineer and asked him specifically if they manufactured both, and if there was and difference in specification between them. This was before it was general knowledge that they are identical. He was somewhat hesitant, since this would have been proprietary information, but finally stated that they were identical to the point that shipments to both Winchester and Hodgdon can come from the same production lot! You can't get any more "Identical" than that!!!!!!
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Old 09-05-2011, 06:37 PM
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Different data publishers may use different test methods , there may be differences in heat , humidity , atmospheric pressure , different primers , normal powder lot variation , and even a different safety factor.
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Old 09-05-2011, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Someone did a while back

H-110 and W-296 Are Not The Same
I remember that thread! Haha, gotta love pointless arguments on internet forums. It seems self-serving to quote myself, but I do like this part of one of my replies:

Quote:
Don't take my word for anything, email or call them yourself if you are interested. Or build your own ballistics lab and test the powders yourself. Or best of all, make your own smokeless powder.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
Both H-110 and 296 are manufactured by St.Marks Powders, formerly Primex Technologies. Several years ago, before Hodgdon became the distributor for Winchester powders, I contacted what was then Primex. I spoke with a production engineer and asked him specifically if they manufactured both, and if there was and difference in specification between them. This was before it was general knowledge that they are identical. He was somewhat hesitant, since this would have been proprietary information, but finally stated that they were identical to the point that shipments to both Winchester and Hodgdon can come from the same production lot! You can't get any more "Identical" than that!!!!!!
St. Marks was at one time owned by Olin , parent company of Winchester. I think they are now owned by General Dynamics.

FWIW , neither Winchester or Hodgdon ever MADE powder. Winchester is merely a leased trademark brand. Olin Chemical made the powders. IMR was owned by DuPont. Don't know who owns them now. And Hodgdon got into the powder & reloading business by buying and repackaging huge lots of Govt surplus powders. Hodgdon is now the distributor for Winchester , IMR and Hodgdon brand powders. And from what I hear , much of the canister grade powders sold to reloaders is now made overseas.
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:55 PM
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I'm back. I still contend H-110 and W-296 are NOT the same powders.

Strictly due to the fact that loaded side-by-side in "all-other-factors-in-the-same-loads" you WILL get different results.

Your velocities will vary as will your accuracy. Same with HP38 and W231. Or any other "same" powder with a different name.

The reason as stated here elsewhere...powder lot differences.

So when someone posts, "Which powder should I use H-110 or W296?" Then someone posts, "Either, they are the same."

I contend that is the incorrect response.

For many years the manuals posted different data for the two powders. Now it appears a number of manuals post the same data. However they will vary in actual use.

So if you want the most accurate load for your handgun, regardless of someone who says, "Use 2400 as it may burn better but it is more accurate than H110, W296, etc." Then you must try ALL powders of the similar burning rate for the load you desire. A specific powder recommended by Joe Blow that was accurate in HIS gun may not be accurate in YOURS.

Same for H110 and W296. One may be more accurate than the other, I do not care if both canisters left the same factory, from the same supplier, in the same truck, with only different labels on the one pound can. They are most likely to produce different results at the range.

Then after you find an H110 load that performs better than the W296 load make sure you buy enough of the SAME lot of H110 to hopefully maintain your desired accuracy.

The same goes for any other powder. A lot of good folks come here with requests for "An accurate load in the (pick a caliber)." The poster gets answers like, "Use Unique, as I get 1/2 inch groups all day long."

What is not explained is that those loads are accurate in ONE gun only. The next handgun straight out of the factory might well be more accurate with AA#5.

If YOU want the most accurate load for YOUR handgun you must buy every powder available in the burn rate you desire and then start experimenting until you find the most accurate load.

And THAT can be expensive and time consuming for a lot of folks. So I recognize the desire for a short-cut and hence the queries for an "accurate load".

Dragon88 is proud of his response but it is obvious he has not loaded much of either powder in many handgun cases.

Years ago, during the first "reloading scare" of the first term of Clinton I intended to find the powder MOST LIKELY to deliver the MOST POTENTIAL of all around accuracy in ALL of my handguns. I had a slew of .45 Colts, a couple of .357 magnums, same in .38 Special, and a .44 Magnum. I shot Bullseye, W231, HP38, Unique, maybe a couple of others. In magnum loads I shot H110, W296, and 2400. Yes, today we have more powders, then I stayed with the more popular ones.

Over sandbagged, two handed rests (the norm for most people who work towards handgun accuracy) I found that Bullseye and H110 were the most likely to produce the best accuracy in my stable of handguns. In ALL cases accuracy ALWAYS differed between H110 and W296.

I then went out and bought a sturdy supply of Bullseye and H110 knowing full well they were more accurate (on the average) than other powders in my small stable of handguns, but still not the most accurate in EVERY handgun I had.

I then did not know that H110 and W296 were the same as they left the factory. This being before the internet and all of its "experts".

Now days I have LOTS of .357, .41 and .44 Magnums. Every time I begin looking for an accurate load in each one with every different powder I load, H110, W296, 2400, AA9, VVN110, and others (which I forget at this moment) all in the similar burning rate for high velocity loads. I always get different levels of accuracy depending on the handgun, powder, bullet, sunlight, shade, stainless, nickle or blued sights, shape of the sandbag, way I hold the gun, which way the wind blows, who's shooting next to me, etc., etc.

I eventually do come to this conclusion. I now know the most LIKELY to be accurate powder load in MY handgun fired by ME.

Please don't waste my time with comments about Ransom Rests and their ability to truly measure accurately. That is true, but how many of us have access or can afford them? We shoot our handguns ourselves and so off of a solid rest with good handgun shooting techniques will suffice.

So, if you want to know which powder is the "best" or most "accurate" in your handgun you must buy both H110 and W296 and shoot both with all other factors the same. You will most likely find out that they are not the SAME in YOUR handgun. Then go out and buy enough of that powder, in the same lot, to last you the lifetime of your handgun, or yourself.

As an assist for the curious, to date in at least 20 or more S&W revolvers of calibers, .38 Special, .357.41.44 Magnum, and .45 Auto Rim. ALL of the S&W handguns I have shot are capable of 2 1/2 inch groups or less at 25 yards from a rest for 5 shots. Provided I find the most accurate load. Some of my best loads are into 1 inch at 25 yards. That was with H110 or W296, depending on the weapon.

Also pay attention to the bullets, some bullets, regardless of the powder, will not shoot well in YOUR handgun. Others will. Change the bullet and the "most accurate" powder you just found will also potentially fail you. Then you must start all over searching for a load.

Also I would like to add this. If you are shooting fixed sight handguns, and if you twist the barrel to get them to print to point-if-aim windage-wise, it will affect your accuracy. Again your "pet" load will go south and you may have to start all over again. I always pick a "standard" load to shoot for fixed sight adjustment and when it is on target windage wise THEN I start to search for the accurate load. USUALLY, not always, a handgun (mine, about 15 or so) will print most loads to the same general place (within 2 inches or less) regardless of accuracy.

To wrap it up I'll say it again, H110 and W296 ARE not the same powders, not at the shooting bench where it matters.

I'll add this disclaimer, if you are a "Jerry Miculek" or a truly accurate phenomal shooter, powder accuracy may not matter. Those high cailber shooters are probalby capable of printing tight groups with most any load. Most of us, me definitely, will never know that unless we get to talk to Mr. Miculek.
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:07 PM
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Alright, who here runs the machine which fills the containers and labels them.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post
Dragon88 is proud of his response but it is obvious he has not loaded much of either powder in many handgun cases.
I have actually, several pounds of each over the past few years. They are the exact same powder. Same appearance, velocities, accuracy, etc. I used to buy mostly H110, but typically find W296 a little cheaper now. I buy whichever is cheaper and use them interchangeably because they are the exact same powder.
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:21 PM
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Come on folks how many times must the same non issue be beat to death?? Go to other reloading web sites. Call St Marks powder.

Call Hodgdon and get the answer from them if you do not believe these threads.

H110 and W296 are the same

HP 38 and W 231 are the same.

Sure powder lots vary so you can say my jar of HP 38 is different than your jar of HP 38 but it's still the same powder.

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Old 09-06-2011, 08:04 PM
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:43 PM
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post
I'm back. I still contend H-110 and W-296 are NOT the same powders.


So when someone posts, "Which powder should I use H-110 or W296?" Then someone posts, "Either, they are the same."

I contend that is the incorrect response.

Same for H110 and W296. One may be more accurate than the other, I do not care if both canisters left the same factory, from the same supplier, in the same truck, with only different labels on the one pound can. They are most likely to produce different results at the range.
[This is one of the most illogical comments I have ever seen posted]

In ALL cases accuracy ALWAYS differed between H110 and W296.

I then did not know that H110 and W296 were the same as they left the factory. This being before the internet and all of its "experts".

To wrap it up I'll say it again, H110 and W296 ARE not the same powders, not at the shooting bench where it matters.
I have no doubt you sincerely believe this baloney. Go back and re-read (or likely read for the first time) my earlier post above. You are doing nothing but express your own opinion, not fact. Certainly there lot-to-lot variations in every propellant made, and there may be small differences in accuracy as a result, but I find it extremely hard to believe that you have consistently gotten better accuracy with either H-110 or 296, especially if you don't have access to a Ransom Rest that could give definitive proof.

What I posted is not my opinion! I got tired of all the arguments both ways and wanted to KNOW te correct answer. I started with Winchester customer service to determine if Winchester/Olin (which owned the Winchester name) sold powder to Hodgdon. I was told that the actual manufacturer was Primex Technologies, and was provided with a contact phone number.

I called Primex, now St Marks, and explained what I wished to know. I was transferred to one of their production engineers, whose name I no longer have, and asked him directly if 296 and H-110 are both manufactured by this company, he answered yes! Further I asked if there were different specifications depending on if sold to Winchester or Hodgdon, the answer was NO. He went on to say that powder from the same production lot would be shipped to either depending on how much was ordered. This is not merely similar, it is absolutely identical!!!

If you choose to believe there is a difference that is your business, but the sum of the difference is strictly between your ears. Quit trying to make proselytes, you are not doing anyone a service by trying to convince others of your ridiculous belief.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:04 AM
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semperfi71,
Do you really think in these days of litigation for everything a powder distributor would tell you the powders are the same but they really aren't? They would never open themselves up for law suits like that. Do you really think Hodgdon and St. Marks would lie about something that important?

Now to really get you going:
W296 = H110
W231 = HP-38
W540 = HS-6
W571 = HS-7
W760 = H414
And one of the Winchester shotgun powders is exactly the same as Ramshot Silhouette.
(can't remember which but someone will tell us soon I'm sure)
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Win75 View Post
I am loading some 180gr. Nosler Partitions for my 8 3/8 inch S&W 686.

My Nosler manual lists H110 from a starting load of 12.5gr. to a max of 13.5gr. The bottle that the powder is in lists the H110 at 13.5 max also.

I lists the 296 loads from 12.0gr. to a max of 13.0gr.

The H110 loads are faster so I chose this for my powder.

Now the question...I have a magazine called Reloading and it has one article in it about powders. It is from 2009. This magazine says that H110 and 296 are the exact same powders and come from the same spout then given a different label.

How can they be the same yet the Nosler manual and the bottle of H110 has a .5gr. difference in loading data from the 296?
They may come from the same spout but that doesn't mean the lot numbers are the same. EVERY powder has lot to lot differences. You may be able to wait a month or two, get another bottle of H110 and find out that it is exactly like the W296 or even a bit slower.

That is why the caution to work up loads when you change lots of powder.

Good reloading practices.

P.S. Call Hodgdon and ask them if they are the exact same powders. Since they market them, they are the experts on the subject. Their data shows the exact same weights and velocities in their data. Go to their website and look.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:48 AM
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Again, this horse is dead. Go AA #9!!
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
And one of the Winchester shotgun powders is exactly the same as Ramshot Silhouette.
(can't remember which but someone will tell us soon I'm sure)
It's the same as WAP. People are using Silhouette data with WAP powder and vice versa. Oh the horror!!!!
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:41 PM
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ArchAngelCD...go back and read my previous posts more closely.

I'm happy that everyone agrees with me that H110 and W296 are the same manufactured powders according to all known sources. I never spoke otherwise.

I do maintain that when shot from the bench, ALL powders MAY show different accuracy levels and other factors even if of the same make. The differences caused by the powder lots.

Therefore these "same" powders are not the same at the target range. Evidentially due to lot differences.

Therefore, when someone posts, "Are H110 and W296 the same powders?" I say no, not when you shoot them out of your handgun. You may get different levels of accuracy and even velocity (probably minor I assume). And the levels of accuracy can be quite different as posted in my original post, brought back to life by someone else.

W296 is most accurate in some loads and H110 is most accurate in some loads, as is 2400 and AA9. But you will not know this unless you experiment. If your handgun shoots both powders equally accurate then you have the luck of a more versatile handgun.

Once again, most of us do not have access to a Ransom Rest. Since 1972 I have consistently seen almost all gunwriters and fellow shooters test loads with two hands over a solid rest. If one powder groups 1 1/4 inches and the other groups 4 inches I think its safe to say which is most accurate for ME in MY handgun since I am doing the shooting.

I am not a competitive target shooter, but I am trained quite well in sight picture, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, and flinch control. And my eyes are not as sharp as they were in 1972 but they still are sharp enough. If I shoot as I say I do for accuracy, I am solid convinced that the target and handgun is not lying.

There's enough difference on paper that ALL powders should be tested before an individual says he/she has the MOST accurate load for his/her handgun.

That's why all of these powders that are the same from the manufacturer can sometimes not be the same at the target range. It's due to lot differences.

You may well find that your pound of H110 is accurate. Then you shoot it all up. The next pound of H110 is of another lot. Your pet load may go south as well. It may not. But you will not know this unless you shoot it for accuracy.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:57 PM
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"To wrap it up I'll say it again, H110 and W296 ARE not the same powders, not at the shooting bench where it matters."

White is white! No it's not, white is black; no matter what anybody says I know it's not white but black!

"You may well find that your pound of H110 is accurate. Then you shoot it all up. The next pound of H110 is of another lot. Your pet load may go south as well. It may not. But you will not know this unless you shoot it for accuracy. "

Yep, using this convoluted logic, even two bottles of the same powder are really not the same. The thing about canister grade powders is that they are produced to have extremely high lot to lot consistency. This means that 99.5 percent of all end users will not notice any detrimental difference in performance. For the other 0.5 percent, most of whom are 1,000 yard target competitors, even the same powder is not the same. To these and AROC types, even the water from your tap is not the same from glass to glass. Anybody now want to debate what the meaning of the word 'is" is?

For all intents and purposes, current production H110 and W296 is the same canister grade propellant with canister grade lot to lot variances. Game, set, match. That's all there is folks!



Bruce
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:02 AM
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I'm glad another "expert" showed up.

I have reported how the two powders H110 and W296 have done in MY handguns with MY shooting. Therefore in MY experience the two powders differ at the shooting bench ONLY.

As far as the reported "convoluted logic", yes, if two canisters of the same named powder are shot, and they come from different powder lots, the accuracy CAN/POSSIBLY be affected. This has happened to me and to others as well.

Therefore I suggest that if one is interested in finding the "best" accuracy for his/her handgun they must experiment and be prepared to insure that they maintain the same lot of powder in as many pounds of it they need.

If someone else's experience differs I am happy for them.

I do know this, I posted actual loads and their effects downrange. Nobody else has.

I am prepared, if need be, to do the testing again, with witnesses and signed statements, along with stamped notary stampings, government documentation, state and federal oversight, Mom and Dad's approval, a carefully selected non-partisan jury, AND delivery by sealed envelope from some famous sealed envelope deliverer.

I am retired and have the time..........

Somebody fax me a Ransom Rest and we'll really settle this......
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:27 AM
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Be sure that when you retest, that all other variables are removed from the equation including the human one. This included atmospheric conditions, piece to piece variation of brass & bullets and the mechanics of the loading procedure and equipment adjustment.This would include weight, shape, dimensional and material variables of all components. Include the relative condition of your firearm which must be exactly identical from shot to shot, especially the condition of the chambers and bore. After that, I suspect that the collected data will be of great interest. Until then, it is unscientific and statistically insignificant conjecture and surmise obtained under uncontrolled circumstances!

Incidentally, regardless of your experience, you have stated emphatically that the two powders are not identical even though the manufacturer states that they are. You are obviously more qualified than said manufacturer based on your "experience" and obviously more forthright. At any rate, roll out your ballistics lab and qualify your "facts" under lab conditions in order to add validity to your conclusion that the manufacturer has erred in his statement, either because of ineptitude or mischief. Alternatively, you can qualify all of your statements by saying most emphatically that they are, in actuality, opinion and not fact, based solely on your experiences. At the end of the day, it will matter not one iota and will define you as being as much of an expert as you suspect I am.



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Old 09-08-2011, 10:11 AM
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Please see post #12 and post #23.

Which one is it?????



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Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post
I'm back. I still contend H-110 and W-296 are NOT the same powders.


To wrap it up I'll say it again, H110 and W296 ARE not the same powders, not at the shooting bench where it matters.
But then in post # 23 you state:

"I'm happy that everyone agrees with me that H110 and W296 are the same manufactured powders according to all known sources. I never spoke otherwise."

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Old 09-08-2011, 10:26 AM
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Dear Sir:

Yes, we manufacture the same propellant lot that is both H110 and WC 296.

----- Original Message -----
From: mkk41
To: Faintich, Stephen (StMarks)
Sent: Mon Jul 17 19:35:19 2006
Subject: Win powders=Hodgdon powders

According to a recent article in GUNS magazine , several Winchester ball are the same as several Hodgdon ball powders. FI , H-110 is supposedly the same as W-296.

Any truth to this.
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:21 PM
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A lot of potential politicians and media "heads" here who can read but either cannot comprehend or are intentionally obscuring what has been openly stated by me.

In my very first thread, brought to life again here by one other than me in his/her vanity as to their supreme knowledge, I HAVE ALWAYS STATED THAT H110 AND W296 ARE PROBABLY/OR ARE THE SAME MANUFACTURED POWDERS AS THEY LEAVE THE ORIGINAL FACTORY.

I go on to state, what is reported by other sources on this forum, in loading manuals, and in gun reporting lore, THAT EVEN THE VERY SAME POWDER BUT IN DIFFERENT LOTS, VARIATIONS CAN EXIST AS TO BURN RATE, VELOCITIES, AND...."ACCURRACY".

That is why many sources suggest that if you are shooting a "maximum power, top pressure load"...when you change powder lots of the same powder you should reduce the load and build it back up.

I will state again what I stated in the first long ago thread and here...H110 and W296 may/are the same powders from the factory. BUT based on MY USAGE ONLY (nobody else's) at the shooting bench I have found differences in accuracy levels. Somebody else might have different results...I am happy for them.

I stated MY results by MY efforts are not scientific and were not meant to be. Since 1972 when I started reloading I have NEVER seen a truly, all factors removed scientific ammunition accuracy test conducted by ANY gunwriter, shooter, and expert such as we seem to have here in some of you/ya'll.

Years ago ALMOST all reloading manuals showed different data between W296 and H110, with no explanation as to why. Then more recent manuals show the same data. Why the change? I do not know. Years ago did they know the powders were the same as they left the factory? I do not know.

Every gun writer that I ever read tested their handgun loads off the bench from a two handed rest, or they shot offhand with two hands. Sometimes, rarely, a Ransom Rest was used. Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, Bob Milek, Mike Venturino, and ALL of the rest. Rarely did any of them use a Ransom Rest in their magazine articles.

I will say that Mike Venturino, if I remember correctly would shoot 10 shot groups or more to prove accuracy for a specific load. But he still shot almost all of those handguns OFF OF A BENCH, FROM A FIRM REST, WITH A TWO HAND HOLD.

They shot the loads, reported the results, and people bought and used products as they were reported.

I have specifically stated that ALL of us are relegated to just about the same recourse. We do not have access to a Ransom Rest. So we go to the range and test our loads how WE SEE FIT. After we are done we choose the load that was the most accurate to US........

Then we tell our friends, and in my case my detractors here how our loads did. Cautious folks, like myself, state, this worked for ME. NOT YOU.

I never said anything that could be taken as gospel, rule of law, or you'd better do it my way or else. Or as one person here stated, "prosey...prothle...prothelizing...preaching from the pulpit" (couldn't spell the word).

What I did say, and I am willing to prove it to the person who provides a solid mechanical rest, an enclosed labratory, a series of technicians in white lab coats, MY HANDGUNS (because that is what I AM SHOOTING), certified certificators to certify that everything meets the standards that folks here are demanding as true scientific proof....let me catch my breath...I am willing to prove under those conditions that the same powder with the only difference being of different lot numbers, MAY shoot to different accuracy levels. Even if that accuracy level is different by one inch, THEY ARE DIFFERENT AT THE SHOOTING BENCH EVEN IF THEY ARE THE SAME POWDERS MANUFACTURED/NAMED/LABELED.

Therefore MY DISCOURSE IN THIS ISSUE is that the powder, or powders ARE NOT THE SAME at the SHOOTING BENCH, which is the only reason for having gunpowder in the first place, to shoot from a gun.

I have been shooting at public and private ranges since 1972. A lot. I have NEVER seen anyone use a mechanical pistol rest of any kind. I have seen EVERYONE who was testing THEIR loads in THEIR weapons use a two handed rest over a support such as sandbags, or two hands sitting or standing with no support, i.e. offhand.

In 1974, at Yuma, Arizona's public range I watched a man walk up to the line with a shooting box with several .45 autos. He had another man and his son in tow. As an aside the shooter looked like, was built like, and talked like Slim Pickens (almost a clone, even had the potgut). He was a former Bullseye shooter who had been shooting at Camp Perry since 1936 or so. He had worked one of the .45 autos for his companion and son. He pulled the .45 out of the box, liberally sprayed it inside and out with WD40, shook off the excess, loaded it and fired it at 10 and 25 yards offhand Bullseye regulation fashion. He had 2 inch or lesser groups at both ranges. It was about 21 shot groups each.

What he did was "contrary" to the current-of-that/this-day-gunwriter handgun testing technique. He did not use a rest, he did not use two hands, he did not do it any any "scientific" manner. But he shot better then than most people then or later in my life, including me, could have done from a rest with two hands.

When he was done he said in the same voice and mannerisms as Slim Pickens, "There, I think this handgun is ready for any competition."

I would like to hear some of you-alls comments on his "lack of scientific proof", or lack of anything for that matter. The man could shoot, he had enough experience, talent, and knowledge to know that his test was ENOUGH to decide for HIM the accuracy level of that handgun.

I have the experience, the knowledge, SOME talent, to know that what I shot from a solid rest with two hands produced what I have stated here.

H110 and W296 will not shoot to the same accuracy levels at the shooting bench FOR ME. Even though, as produced they are reported to be the same powders, thay have ALWAYS (to me only) produced different levels of accuracy. I can only suggest that this is due to different powder lots.

And yes I can "wiggle-waggle" even from a rest and throw a few rounds off. But read this from my original, first thread:

"Speer 158 grain HP: H110-4 1/4 inches, 2400-2 7/8 inches, W-296-1 1/4 inches, AA9-3 1/2 inches"

If the difference between H110 and W296, in this load only, is what is reported, I know I did not "wiggle-waggle" that much. So when I want to load THAT bullet in MY M27-2 I will choose W296 and NOT H110.

I will say it again. The variables are such that if one wants to TRULY know the accuracy potential of his/her handgun they SHOULD try ALL powders available for their chosen purpose. Including the reported "same" powders. Only then will they TRULY know the accuracy potential of their weapon.

Ya'll keep them cards and letters coming...........
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post

Therefore MY DISCOURSE IN THIS ISSUE is that the powder, or powders ARE NOT THE SAME at the SHOOTING BENCH, which is the only reason for having gunpowder in the first place, to shoot from a gun.


Ya'll keep them cards and letters coming...........

Sir,

It is not called "gunpowder" anymore. It's smokeless powder
Just kidding, please do not take it seriously.

Believe it or not, I do understand what you are saying in so many words and agree to an extent, but still believe there are so many other variables that it can not be narrowed down to the powder alone.

Yes, in individual tests, by different people using different guns on different days and environments there certainly should be some variation in ballistics between H110 and W 296. Not many man made things are absolutely perfect or the same. Each lead bullet out of a box of 500 is probably a little bit different than the others.

You or I can go to the store buy a brand new jar of H110 and a a jar of W 296, load 10 rounds of each and perhaps there will be a slight variation. But for all practical purposes and based on the manuals, and manufacturers they still are the same powder.
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post
I'm back. I still contend H-110 and W-296 are NOT the same powders.

blah,blah,blah,
yada'yada,yada,


To wrap it up I'll say it again, H110 and W296 ARE not the same powders.

Huh?

Are you saying that either Winchester/Olin or Hodgdon somehow 'doctors' the powder after it comes from the manufacturer?
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:57 PM
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Reading Comprehension Class 101.

From my very first post last year:
"Yes, many reports, here and elsewhere, have stated that the powders are the same and that H-110 is actually W-296 but only shipped to Hodgdon’s and packaged by them as H-110. Or maybe packaged somewhere else and sold by Hodgdon’s. However it “becomes” H-110 does not matter to me. I like both powders.

I do not contend that anyone, including the factory representatives are lying…or obscuring the truth….or drinking to excess.

But, I do contend that both powders are different, as to accuracy and as to loading quantities. Several reloading manuals will show different load weights for different velocities and different load weights for maximum pressures."

WHICH MEANS W296 AND H110 ARE THE SAME POWDERS AS MANUFACTURED BUT MAY DIFFER AT THE SHOOTING BENCH.

My subsequent post:
"I'm back. I still contend H-110 and W-296 are NOT the same powders.

Strictly due to the fact that loaded side-by-side in "all-other-factors-in-the-same-loads" you WILL get different results.

Your velocities will vary as will your accuracy. Same with HP38 and W231. Or any other "same" powder with a different name.

The reason as stated here elsewhere...powder lot differences.

So when someone posts, "Which powder should I use H-110 or W296?" Then someone posts, "Either, they are the same."

I contend that is the incorrect response.

For many years the manuals posted different data for the two powders. Now it appears a number of manuals post the same data. However they will vary in actual use."

WHICH MEANS W296 AND H110 ARE THE SAME POWDERS AS MANUFACTURED BUT MAY DIFFER AT THE SHOOTING BENCH.

My subsequent post:
"I'm happy that everyone agrees with me that H110 and W296 are the same manufactured powders according to all known sources. I never spoke otherwise.

I do maintain that when shot from the bench, ALL powders MAY show different accuracy levels and other factors even if of the same make. The differences caused by the powder lots.

Therefore these "same" powders are not the same at the target range. Evidentially due to lot differences."

WHICH MEANS W296 AND H110 ARE THE SAME POWDERS AS MANUFACTURED BUT MAY DIFFER AT THE SHOOTING BENCH.

My subsequent post:
"I have reported how the two powders H110 and W296 have done in MY handguns with MY shooting. Therefore in MY experience the two powders differ at the shooting bench ONLY.

As far as the reported "convoluted logic", yes, if two canisters of the same named powder are shot, and they come from different powder lots, the accuracy CAN/POSSIBLY be affected. This has happened to me and to others as well."

WHICH MEANS W296 AND H110 ARE THE SAME POWDERS AS MANUFACTURED BUT MAY DIFFER AT THE SHOOTING BENCH.

My subsequent post:
"In my very first thread, brought to life again here by one other than me in his/her vanity as to their supreme knowledge, I HAVE ALWAYS STATED THAT H110 AND W296 ARE PROBABLY/OR ARE THE SAME MANUFACTURED POWDERS AS THEY LEAVE THE ORIGINAL FACTORY.

I go on to state, what is reported by other sources on this forum, in loading manuals, and in gun reporting lore, THAT EVEN THE VERY SAME POWDER BUT IN DIFFERENT LOTS, VARIATIONS CAN EXIST AS TO BURN RATE, VELOCITIES, AND...."ACCURRACY"."

WHICH MEANS W296 AND H110 ARE THE SAME POWDERS AS MANUFACTURED BUT MAY DIFFER AT THE SHOOTING BENCH.

My subsequent post:
"I will state again what I stated in the first long ago thread and here...H110 and W296 may/are the same powders from the factory. BUT based on MY USAGE ONLY (nobody else's) at the shooting bench I have found differences in accuracy levels. Somebody else might have different results...I am happy for them."

WHICH MEANS W296 AND H110 ARE THE SAME POWDERS AS MANUFACTURED BUT MAY DIFFER AT THE SHOOTING BENCH.

mkk41: I have continually also stated that I suspect/believe the difference in the accuracy is from lot differences of the powder, as in H110 lot #456 may not shoot as well as W296 lot #2345.


My data:
"Speer 158 grain HP: H110-4 1/4 inches, 2400-2 7/8 inches, W-296-1 1/4 inches, AA9-3 1/2 inches"
WHEN THIS HAPPENS I WILL ALWAYS SHOOT W296 FOR THIS LOAD. Regardless of the variables that day. As long as I held steady...and I did.

Posted by Rule3:
"It is not called "gunpowder" anymore. It's smokeless powder
Just kidding, please do not take it seriously."

By me: I never take much of anything seriously anymore other than food portions.

There is one fly in the mix to my "experiences" with H110 and W296. I should have shot 20 shot groups for each load. Five shots per load and making a judgement is not truly "test" enough. BUT I am cheap, and my time has to be spent elsewhere. AND ALMOST ALL the gunwriters used to shoot the same five shots and call it good. So did I.

I never said anything other than essentially, "This is what happened to me and may be an indication that points to possible differences in accuracy of the supposedly same powders." I then suggested that if others want the most accurate load they have to experiment with ALL powders.

As an aside I took my K22 Combat Masterpiece and shot five shot groups with a variety of .22 LR loads. The best 5 shot group became my chosen ammo. Then I went back and shot 20 shot groups of all of the same different brands of ammo. The same brand of ammo was still the most accurate.

One gun, one guy, one day, with one set of variables. I ain't going back to see how well all of the different loads shoot when I am cold, hot, wet, hungover, or in my underpants.
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:39 PM
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So what if I use up all my H-110 , then pour W-296 into the H-110 can. Would I get the same results?
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:44 PM
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So what if I use up all my H-110 , then pour W-296 into the H-110 can. Would I get the same results?
Nah, it works better if you use up half the can of H110, then pour half a can of W296 into it, shake it up (not stirred ), and use it. You could develop data for this "new" powder and sell it as W210, or maybe H196.
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Old 09-08-2011, 05:09 PM
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It would be HW110296.

Which might make for an interesting experiment.

Testing the accuracy of: H110, W296, and HW110296.

As an add-on one could also load one half the amount necessary for H110 and then load the other half of W296...a duplex load.

Or vicey-versey. Which means 5/FIVE load possibilities with only two powders.

Seriously, don't anybody try this.
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:26 PM
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It's funny but you can qualify your statements in such a way that it can be argued that they can mean anything to anybody.



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Old 09-08-2011, 09:15 PM
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I would have made a great lawyer. But since I am right I'll stay the course.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:27 PM
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I'm wondering if I loaded 20 rounds of .357 Magnum with H110 but told you 10 were with H110 and 10 where with W296, what would happen? I have a feeling the ones you thought were loaded with W296 would shoot 1.5" groups while the ones you were told were made with H110 would shoot 4.5" groups even though all were loaded with H110. I'm not even accusing you of doing anything consciously but I'm betting it would happen.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:04 AM
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ArchAngelCD,

If you wish to argue at least do so intelligently and with something more solid than that comment.
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:20 AM
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"I would have made a great lawyer. "

Well, I guess that there was a time when most everybody would think that this statement would be a good one to have on your resume'. These days, not so much.

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Old 09-09-2011, 04:19 AM
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ArchAngelCD,

If you wish to argue at least do so intelligently and with something more solid than that comment.
I didn't insult you so why did you feel the need to insult me? If you want to trade insults at least take it to PM's so as not to make this fine forum a low place. You can act this way with someone else now because I'm done with this silliness.
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:00 AM
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Come on guys, this is not a argument it's a "intelligent" discussion.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:35 PM
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ArchAngelCD,

You spoke the ultimate, and best, comment when you posted this, "I'm done with this silliness."

And I refer to the word "silliness".

You are correct this is silliness.

A year ago or so I posted results acquired with MY handgun by ME and reported as MY experiences only. I posted that in MY opinion if one is interested in finding the most accurate load for their handgun they must be prepared to load and shoot ALL powders necessary for their desires.

I used shooting techiniques that have been in use by ALMOST ALL handgunners since the time I started shooting.

I did not, initually, speak clearly enough in the first year ago post that H110 and W296 are indeed the same powders as they come from the MANUFACTURER. But my comments, if properly read do agree with that. And I confirmed it in later posts.

I did then, and now, will continue to state that those two powders MAY not show the same accuracy in YOUR handgun and I do know they do not in my handguns....for 38 years.

NOBODY who disagreed with me went out and tested as well as I did, or better, and returned with any rebuttals to my comments.

NOBDOY who disagreed went out and tested anything and reported back to us.

NOBDOY stated how they test their handloads.

But several folks sure enough disagreed with my comments. Almost strong enough for me to think I had impugned the honor of their pet dog.

So much so that I really cannot believe they were reading what was printed. Even after I clearly stated I agreed about the similarity from the manufacturer, people still would post here about me not agreeing.

I am not an expert and make no claims to be. I refer to what works for me and how and why.

If someone chooses to try my methods, that's okay, if not, that's okay too.

But if someone wants to argue with me when I know I am right, the argument will go on forever.

Bruce M,
It is popular to trash lawyers, but the trash talk stops when someone needs a divorce, a will, a lawsuit for damages, or defense in court.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:55 PM
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Semperfi,

As a off topic I do wish to than you and all fellow service men and women for your service, where ever, when ever. With 9/11 a few days a way, we all need to pause and reflect on what our service men and women as well as all first responders have given to this Country.

Without this service we would not be able to have these hobbies and banter back and forth on the Internet.

So back to our regular scheduled discussion.

Oh, and Rule 51.
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:11 PM
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Rule3, thank you.

I was lucky, I spent three years at MCAS Yuma and all of my free time shooting and running around in the desert or fishing.

My Father fought with the 6th MarDiv at Okinawa and my younger brother fought with the 3rd Marine Recon twice in Iraq.

I hope we will always have the brave people such as we do today to defend us.
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Old 09-09-2011, 05:21 PM
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One thing that I have always been curious about regarding the H110/296 and 231/HP38 powders is whether the powders received by Winchester in the East Alton plant were blended further or given additional processing (deterrent coatings) at the East Alton plant. Or were they loaded into cartridges directly from the barrels they were shipped in. Likewise, did any blending occur before the powder was put in the containers for retail sale. If there was no processing at East Alton it could mean that they were blended at St. Marks to the burning characteristics desired by Winchester. However, communications from other posters seems to indicate that this did not occur.

So, does anyone here have first hand knowledge about how East Alton may have processed the powder they received before either packaging it for sale or loading it into cartridges?

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Old 09-09-2011, 05:29 PM
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No , according to the folks at St.Marks. SemperFi might have another opinion.

I actually sent an email with link to this thread to the folks at Hodgdon. Let's see if they reply.
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:08 PM
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What I know about H110 and W296 as far as their original manufacture and sale by Hodgdons and Winchester is what is reported here by others.

They are evidentally the same.

I only maintain that in MY handguns over the years thay have shown a propensity to vary as to accuracy.

I assume it is because of lot differences.
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:49 PM
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I work for Hodgdon powder Co. We have Hodgdon powder, Winchester powder and IMR powder.

I can tell you, that H110 and W296 are exactly the same powder and they have always been exactly the same powder. Not similar, or like but exactly the same powder. It is produced, put into large drums and then repackaged into consumer units of both H110 and W296.

This should clear up the issue but if there are those who do not think I am telling the truth or want to discuss this further call 800-622-4366 ext 110 Monday - Wednesday next week and we can talk about it.

Mike Daly
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:33 AM
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MDaly,

Thank you for that.

Do you know of, any reports of different accuracy levels between the two powders as I have reported here?

And would it be due to powder lot differences?

Thank you.
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