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Old 09-23-2011, 08:12 AM
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Default PISTOL PRIMERS

What is the criteria--in your opinion--in the choice of pistol/revolver primers.
This is size NOT manufacturer.
I use as an example the 9x23.
I use small rifle primers. Why? Because Burns says to in his blog on his site. I have never tried using another.
What for instance, using the following calibers, do you use---& WHY.
.38+P's
.38 Supers
.357 mag
.41 mag
maybe even the .45ACP.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:40 AM
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I use the exact primer specified by the most recent publication of the powder manufacturer.
The reason being, I know that my computer key board will be easier to use if I have all of my fingers.
If you want to play mix and match, you might want to check into the new talk and type computer programing. because you won't be needing a key board.
Mike
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:27 AM
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Guess I do not understand what you are getting at??

I use what the primer that fits the cartridge or load as stated in a manual.. SP for small, LP for Large, Mag primer if required. SR for small rifle etc.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:28 AM
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I use SPPs in all of them. When I shot .38 Super, I never got into the very top end loads, so SRPs were not needed to prevent blown/pierced primers.

LRPs don't fit in LPP holes, so it's a non-issue in .45acp.

.357/.38? again, no need, and the recipes call for SPPs or SPMs. SRP would change pressures.

Even in .357/.38 carbines I use SPPs.

Last edited by Calliope; 09-23-2011 at 10:35 AM. Reason: ETA, .45acp large primers
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:30 AM
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I find some amount of different advice on primer sizes is the reason I ask. I always use the suggestions of the book I am using using as a guide for loads.
Just a curious question.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:43 AM
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There is a good article in the current issue of Handloader magazine on primers, if that will help.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomuchiron View Post
I use the exact primer specified by the most recent publication of the powder manufacturer. The reason being, I know that my computer key board will be easier to use if I have all of my fingers.If you want to play mix and match, you might want to check into the new talk and type computer programing. because you won't be needing a key board.
Mike
What he says ! ........
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:36 AM
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What he says ! ........
+1 - what he said!!
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:50 AM
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Still wondering what the criteria is.
I understand why you do it--so do I.
What is the criteria.
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:52 AM
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I find some amount of different advice on primer sizes is the reason I ask.

There should be no question on primer size. Small won't stay in a large pocket and large will be destroyed trying to get it in a small pocket. I use magnum primers when the powder being used requires it, otherwise a regular primer is used. I don't shoot any of the high pressure gaming rounds so using s small rifle in a pistol case is out for me. I would NEVER use a pistol primer in any rifle case.
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:59 AM
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Default From CCI customer service

"One thing that can happen is the rifle firing pin can perforate the bottom of the pistol primer cup. This can damage the firing pin and sometimes erode the breech face of the firearm. The pistol primers have a thinner cup bottom than a rifle primer. Also, CCI pistol primers typically have less priming compound (or a different formula) than a rifle primer. Thirdly our pistol primers have a 'shorter' overall height than the rifle primers. They may seat too far into the rifle case primer pocket and result in a misfire".

Linda OlinCCI/Speer Technical Services2299 Snake River Ave.Lewiston, ID 83501

I only use what the load books tell me to use, unless a manufacturer tells me otherwise.

Regards,

Hobie
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Old 09-23-2011, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williamlayton View Post
Still wondering what the criteria is.
I understand why you do it--so do I.
What is the criteria.
Blessings

What criteria?? The criteria is that's what it calls for from the folks who make and test them.

If a small pistol caliber calls for a small pistol primer, then that's what works and fits.

So there is not another criteria, it is what it is.


"A standard of judging; any approved or established rule or test, by which facts, principles opinions, and conduct are tried in forming a correct judgment respecting them. [1913 Webster]"
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Old 09-23-2011, 03:19 PM
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Question Burns

Who is this "Burns" you speak of?
I use what is called for as printed in established loading manuals.
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Old 09-23-2011, 07:02 PM
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HUMMMMM---
What is the critical issue, the criteria, that defines what is chosen--not by you or me---buy the manufacturers. They didn't get it from a manual and nobody told them--what is the criteria.
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Old 09-23-2011, 07:48 PM
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Default The critical issues ARE....

I think your question should be addressed to the ammunition and component manufacturers since they are the ones who specify what to use where. I think you have received reasonable replies to your question from us users. Ask the makers.

best, nrb
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:13 PM
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I guess you are right---I know that I don't know.
It can't be the poweders used that maes a difference.
It must have something to do with pressures--but that thought leaves me a liitle confused as some powders are used interchangably in high pressure and low pressure.
I was just wondering.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:22 PM
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Using rifle primers indescrimenately in pistol loads can be problematic. They are much hotter than psitol primers, even hotter than magnum pistol primers. SO unless you are reowrking your loads, not a good idea. The other issue is the rifle primers are "harder", so will not fire in some striker fired guns or guns that have tuned triggers. The final issue is the magnum primer will disguise pressure issues as they will not flow like a pistol primer. This could mean a KB instead of an observed high pressure event. You will not find ANY vetted, printed data calling for rifle primers in handgun loads but for the 454cas & maybe the newer 480 & 500 mags.
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Old 09-23-2011, 11:37 PM
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Maybe this will provide some info?
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Last edited by Rule3; 10-02-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 09-24-2011, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williamlayton View Post
Still wondering what the criteria is.
I understand why you do it--so do I.
What is the criteria.
Blessings
The criteria is, you use "small pistol primers" in pistol cases that use a small primer. You use "large pistol primers" in pistol cases that use a large primer. (and so on)


When using hard to ignite ball powders in magnum handgun ammo you use a magnum primer, small for the .357 Magnum and large for the 44 Magnum....

When making 454 Casull ammo you use a small rifle primer because it can handle the extremely high pressures generated by that cartridge and because that's what the manuals recommend...

Read and then read some more and you will get the idea...
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Last edited by ArchAngelCD; 09-24-2011 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:07 AM
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Well--I am reading.
I do communicate so poorly.
I will post the question differently.
Without consideration of wanting to experiment I follow the manuals.
What, in the composition of a primer, is the primary concern for the bullet and powder being used---is it pressure or complete burning of the powder.
I understand that the faster powder is burned the more pressure it builds.
Dane Burns is a Gunsmith of some good reputation and considered, by most, to be a real authority on the 9x23 and the reloading and development of this cartridge.
I follow his advice.
The primer does more than ignite powder--it directs/starts a controlled explosion.
The critical issues--even the low powered .45--is what I am trying to understand.
I am not trying to re-invent a wheel.
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Old 09-24-2011, 12:33 PM
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Default Try "Googling"

Primers, the Sparkplug of Centerfire Cartridges

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...ics/primer.cfm

Last edited by Hobie1; 09-24-2011 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 09-24-2011, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williamlayton View Post
Well--I am reading.
I do communicate so poorly.
I will post the question differently.
Without consideration of wanting to experiment I follow the manuals.
What, in the composition of a primer, is the primary concern for the bullet and powder being used---is it pressure or complete burning of the powder.
I understand that the faster powder is burned the more pressure it builds.
Dane Burns is a Gunsmith of some good reputation and considered, by most, to be a real authority on the 9x23 and the reloading and development of this cartridge.
I follow his advice.
The primer does more than ignite powder--it directs/starts a controlled explosion.
The critical issues--even the low powered .45--is what I am trying to understand.
I am not trying to re-invent a wheel.
Blessings
It's not that you can't use diff primers, it's just that you need to work your load up accordingly. Specialty roudns, like the 9x23, will have completely diff reloading criteria & may be completely safe using rifle primers. Stuffing them into 40 loads w/o working up could easily cause a KB. Again, there are hazards to using high powered rifle primers in pistol loads. Just because a gunsmith says this or that doesn't eman he is right. Many good gunsmith's know little about ballistics or reloading. The general rule of using components in printed data should be followed as closely as possible, especially when loading near the top end.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:41 PM
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Hobie1
Thanks. Those links help a lot.
It makes no difference--and probably was developed for safety reasons--but I kept wondering why they were not all the same size--size wise, not power wise.
I was in the dark about powders and temperture to a large degree----but had a feel for different grain structure effecting/affecting burn rate.
I just was very curious what the primer did that could effect the burn rate other than amount of explosion.
It was all just a curious question.
Your links helped.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:42 PM
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Default Glad to help!

Have a good one.

Hobie
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:04 PM
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Thumbs up

I just found out something interesting relating to your question.

Just bought a new SW 632 in 327 Federal Magnum. In searching for load data and general information I found that Speer uses a Small Rifle Primer in their factory ammo with the 115 gr Gold Dot HP.

Special Note Regarding Primers: Due to the high operating pressures, factory ammo for the 327 Federal uses
small rifle primers to prevent primer flowback. These handloads were developed with Federal #205 small rifle
primers. However, small rifle magnum primers are neither required nor recommended.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/pdf/327...8_DataFile.pdf
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:08 PM
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I use whatever type of primer the load data calls for, but not the particular brandname. I buy whatever brand the LCS has in stock and have never had any noticeable differences in round performance.
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Old 09-26-2011, 07:05 PM
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Again---I follow directions, but I wonder about things.
I found some good discussion on another board and some links with the conversation that have made a great deal of sense of this for me.
The discussion--I asked thse same question to start the thread--and some of the answers led to a link on primers and reloading rifles.
There seems to be the same parallels of the effect/affect of choices of primers in rifles as well as handguns.
The first is one can change primers and it may be beneficial when the discussion goes to bench rest shooting or developing the most accurate loading.
The idea of this is when you change to softer/larger/hotter primers it is necessary to soften the powder charge to accomodate higher pressures. This seems to be especially necessary when the powder chosen is case filling or close to it.
Case filling, as I have seen it suggested, is very good for developing accuracy.
Using a hotter powder and reducing load may reduce accuracy.
It makes sense to me that any primer---if it will fit in the charge hole of the case---can be changed to develope loads.
I am beginning to get the feel of the cause, affect, and reasoning for primers (criteria) and choices of primers.
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Last edited by williamlayton; 09-26-2011 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 10-02-2011, 06:54 PM
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I understand the competition guys were using small rifle primers during the Great Primer Drought.

Wish I'd had all this SPP .45ACP brass back then.
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Old 10-02-2011, 07:16 PM
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As others have mentioned, I follow what the recipe lists as much as possible. I may substitute a Winchester spp for a CCI spp, but never at a max load. I also follow the primer Manufacturers recommendations such as Remington lists on their 1 1/2 primers of not using them in 357 mag, 357 sig, and 40 S&W even though they are similar to the primers used:
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Old 10-02-2011, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
It makes sense to me that any primer---if it will fit in the charge hole of the case---can be changed to develope loads.
I am beginning to get the feel of the cause, affect, and reasoning for primers (criteria) and choices of primers.
Blessings
Before you decide you have it figured out and launch off into new experiments, may I offer a word of caution from the ol' physics prof.

Internal ballistics (what happens before the bullet leaves the barrel) is an incredibly complicated mess of partial differential equations that are non-linear (meaning they don't follow "common sense").
It is not only more complicated than someone who does not know calculus can understand, it is more complicated than he can imagine.

Therefore, it is prudent to use loading recipes that are published in at least 2 reputable manuals. Simply changing brands of primers on a medium load of the common powders is highly unlikely to cause a problem, but playing with specific powders operating near the limits of their stable range can generate surprises that "don't make sense" to the layman, and following recommendations of powder manufacturers may save you a gun, or injury.
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:00 AM
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OKFCO5
I totaly agree---I can't comprehend physics other than the Lord God made it to work as it does.
I also agree to use caution--in every adventure of life realize that there are reasons why you can't just say "hold my beer and watch this."
It is also true to follow directions--but--one can vary from these litigous direction using sound data.
I am not a hot rodder, bench rest or particularly a "Bubba"--so the fears some, appropriately, show and advise does not fall on deaf ears.
It is still an interesting look-see and coffee discussion topic.
Unlike some of you--I often wonder strange things and what if's.
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Unlike some of you--I often wonder strange things and what if's.
That's been both an interest and life's work for me. Some of the sensors I helped develop are out there looking at the earth now.

Good shooting!
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:49 PM
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I suppose the criteria could be the standards set by saami. Ammo manufacturers must make every effort to stay within these boundaries as such. Knowing the limitations of firearms saami set the maximum pressure allowed for cartridges. The powder manufacturers test each cartridge using a specific bullet/powder/primer and monitor the chamber pressure. Knowing what each type of primers is able to withstand pressure wise they then "recommend" loads for us in manuals staying within safe limits.

I trust their judgment in knowing they have the resources to test each cartridge so that's my criteria.

It's like speeding down the highway over the speed limit. Sometimes you get caught, sometimes you don't, but there are always consequences.
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:53 AM
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There ARE limits.
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:01 PM
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Remington SP number 1&1/2 vs Remington number 5&1/2. when the latter came out a few years ago the hype on the street was a "magnum" primer although the mfgr didn't list it as such. I called remington

- answer the 5&1/2 was used by Rem for mfg 357 sig and 40 s&w cause of higher pressure (thicker cup only.) NOT Magnum)


john
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