S&W M329 PD Gas Shield Erosion w/Ramshot Enforcer

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Paul105

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I'm looking for a full house .44 Mag practice load w/the 329 -- Lyman 429244 SWCGC -- that won't erode the blast shield. I've had considerable experience with cast bullets and A2400 in the 329 (8k - 9k rounds). This combination results in blast shield erosion when loaded to or close to .44 Mag pressures. Can't remember and am too lazy to look but I've had the gas shield replaced for or five times.

dla's excellent website indicates that Ramshot Enforcer is gentler on the 329s blast shield than H110/W296, A2400, AA#9.

dla -- do you have updated info.

Anybody else with actual experience with Enforcer and its effect on the 329s blast shield.

TIA,

Paul
 
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The erosion is as much a function of pressure as burn temperature. Full power magnum ammunition will erode the blast shield regardless of which propellant you chose. Some may accelerate it by a small amount as compared to others but all will do it.

Try this as a starting point. Use minimum charge as starting point and follow Handloading Rule #1. I doubt you will find data for that bullet exactly.

http://noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8190&start=0&view=print

Bruce
 
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IMR4227 is the easiest on the gun to use for magnum-type loads. Erosion on the forcing cone and top strap is much less than with the ball powders and even 2400. This is a direct observation from shooting many thousands of rounds back in the silhouette days, both in my guns and others.
 
I agree 4227 is probably the best choice of powders for what you are looking for. BUT (there is always a but) Alliant's new Power Pro 300-MP is getting good reports all over the Internet. I can't tell you if it's less likely to erode the blast shield or not but it's worth looking into.
 
Thanks for all the input.

I remembered that I have between 5 and 6 lbs of VV N110. It looks very similar to 4227 (stick vs ball), but with a burn rate closer to A2400. I bought 8 lbs sometime ago, but didn’t use much because it didn’t work well in the Dillon powder charge system. It is supposedly flash suppressed, which is a good thing in itself, and maybe contributes to LESS blast shield erosion.

I went back thru my chrono data for the 329PD, which showed 20.2 gr of VV N110 generated 1,243 fps under a 250gr Leadheads SWC Keith with an ES 24. As reference, the Remington factory .44 Mag 240gr JSPs run 1,244 fps with an ES of 19 thru the same gun in similar environmental conditions.

I loaded 25 rounds of 18.9 gr (vs. 20.0gr) VV N110 under a 265gr SWCGC, because the bullet was different (265gr SWGC – Lyman 429244 vs. Leadhead’s RCBS 250K PB right at 260gr actual). 18.9gr because that’s what my Little Dandy rotor #25 threw. Based on previous chrono work, this load should develop around 1,150 fps

Went to the range this afternoon to check extraction and POI – pretty close to dead on at 15 yards offhand with both the 329PD and a 6” 629 half lug – easy extraction in both. Plinked some 5” 25 yard target tree plates with remaining ammo – neither gun was abusive.

I’ll run some groups off a rest and also over the chrono increasing charge to 20.0gr (previous low ES) in an attempt to optimize this load for practice purposes.

Obviously it will take at least another 1,000 + rounds to answer the blast shield erosion question. I’ll probably only shoot about 30 rounds a week (10 rnds 3 days/week), so it will take some time for any definitive results.

I will update at 1,000 rounds.

Paul
 
As others have stated there will be some top strap or blast shield erosion from magnum loads but the damage should be limited to a certain point then not get any worse.
I've switched too to Accurate 4100 for all my magnum calibers now, which is the same powder as Ramshot Enforcer that you use. You might see how you like IMR 4227. It's a tad slower powder than the rest and less recoil and cannot be overloaded.
 
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parisite said:
As others have stated there will be some top strap or blast shield erosion from magnum loads but the damage should be limited to a certain point then not get any worse.
Click to expand...

For the most part, I agree with your statement, except in the case of the 329PD.

Blast Shield eroded in half:
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329-2-1.jpg

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Top strap after the blast shield fell off in two pieces:
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329-1-1.jpg

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Different picture of top strap erosion - same gun:
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blastshield.jpg

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S&W replaced the frame (w/same serial number) along with the blast shield.
Didn't cost me a penny.
.
In the 329, blast shield/top strap erosion is progressive and is not limited to a certain depth. I've had them replaced at least 4 times on two different guns.

Paul
 
I am Old School.
I use Unique and 2400 in the 44 Mag. With bullets heavier than 280gr I would use H110. I have used H110 with 240 gr cast and jacketed bullets as well, but I find 2400 works plenty good for them...

I do not own a 329, but it might be the next revolver I buy...
Probably a NG with the short barrel...

I coinsider ANY non steel framed revolver as a light duty gun. One to be carried a lot and shot not so much.

If you want to shoot a LOT, get a steel framed gun.

PS, I am still carrying the S&W Bodyguard I bought in 1972, and I have shot it a fair amount, but I have not shot it to DEATH...
 
It is a design issue. A faulty one in my opinion. The blast shield is not made of sufficient material to keep this from happening and they must not have intended this firearm to be shot a lot.

Either way, it seems to me to be like having a car that can go 70 mph 10 times, on the 11th, watch out because it will throw a rod sure as the world. Drive it 55 mph and that puppy will last you a lifetime. Wanna get to it's full performance level though and you have 10 times at it, no more.

Not many of us would to that. If we bought a car that did that and lived in the western states where the speed limit would allow us to drive that fast much of the time, we would be silly to do so. They make cars that are able to go to 70mph over and over and over and over and .........you get the drift, and not be harmed in the least bit as long as proper maintenance is done on them. The first car in question had absolutely no maintenance items to perform to make it last longer other than drive it slower.

Seems simple to me. You want to shoot a 44Mag, fine. You want a carry revolver that is light and still has the "punch" of that wonderful round, fine. You want to shoot a lot, that is fine too, just don't expect it from one revolver! And certainly not the one that has the "70mph" limit! ;)

Get a new firearm that is all steel, change powders for your range practice loads (You can shoot a few of your hard core loads to impress folks standing nearby) and load the snot out of your hunting/ccw carry ammo and carry your light revolver with it.


FWIW
 
Well, that is a much better reply from your first go 'round! THANKS!

And no, it isn't a total waste of time.

Here is how I am following your logic in having this ultra-light revolver. Which, I carry one too, only in the wimpy 38Spl. ;)

It is a BUG though and not the first line of defense, so to speak.

At any rate, from what I am getting, you need to shoot your carry stuff in a firearm that has a lifetime of 1000 rounds. Okay, I guess I can follow that. Then, you have to send the firearm that you practiced with for a carry sidearm in to be repaired because you shot it so much in practicing to be proficient with it so you could shoot it more and that caused you to have to send it in to get it fixed 'cause it only lasts for 1000 round, well, one part of it that is.

So, buy two, carry one and send the other one in, rotate them! Or, do like a cop did not that long ago and carry a M28 or one cop I know that carried a M629 or even John Linebaugh, another of us that knows nothing according to you, who carries a M25, um, everyday, um everywhere.

So, while I do see the need for a lightweight revolver, even in the powerful 44Mag, I still don't think that you HAVE to spend all of your time shooting that firearm to be proficient with the firearm that you are going to carry. Case in point: Ruger 45/22 if you carry a 1911, any one of the good 22 caliber firearms that are made by the same maker that you have for a carry semi-auto, with the same controls and all. Or, what about the military using 22 caliber rifles for some of their training? Check the CMP store. Bolt actions and such. Now, with their 223 and 9mm firearms, recoil isn't that big of a deal so they probably don't do that much anymore.

I get it though. I understand why you do it. Just to me, it makes no sense at all. But, if the world was all like me, it would be a boring place and we all would be carrying a Glock 21 with two magazines everywhere we went, to the corner grocery store or all the way to Kalifornia! :)

To each his own, thanks for explaining though. :D
 
My original intent was to find a powder that would be less harsh on the blast shield/top strap of the 329. I fully understand that the 329 is a compromise, and am willing live with its limitations in exchange for the light weight – to this old man, it makes a huge difference. I have carried one almost daily for the last 5 years. I had no interest in alternative comment – only possible solutions to the original question and I appreciate all comments which addressed that question.

I do have two 329s for just the reason stated by smith crazy.

In my 2nd post I stated that maybe 30 rounds a week would be shot with the load in question.

I also have four other steel .44 Mags along with .45 Colts, a .454 C, and two .475 Linebaughs, along with lesser calibers – so, the 329 isn’t my only big “shooter”.

Where I shoot, I am, for the most part alone. When others are around, mostly we know each other and share handguns/rifles and loads at power levels someone is interested in. No need to impress anyone, or surprise (and possible hurt someone) with hot loads, the only interest is in sharing to see if the particular gun/load might be of interest/use or just experience something different or new.

For those interested, I had a chance to chrono the 265gr SWCG (429244) over 19.0gr of VV N110 – It runs right at 1,100 fps at 45 deg F.

Paul
 
Paul105 said:
I do have two 329s for just the reason stated by smith crazy.

In my 2nd post I stated that maybe 30 rounds a week would be shot with the load in question.

No need to impress anyone, or surprise (and possible hurt someone) with hot loads, the only interest is in sharing to see if the particular gun/load might be of interest/use or just experience something different or new.

Paul
Click to expand...

Paul,
At least you have approached the issue with good logic. It only stands to reason that you would need two of them because of how they were designed. Good for you.

I doubt that you are all that old if you can still stand the recoil from a full house magnum load in an ultralight firearm! ;)

And, no, I have not shot one but I do understand physics just a tad. Lighter firearms, with hotter loads = more recoil.
handloads.com has a calculator there for determining just how much, in numeric value anyway, that recoil will be.

So, with a firearm that weighs right at 1 1/2lb versus one that weighs over two, with the same load, the felt recoil is almost twice as much. Since I shoot my M629 Classic with full power loads, I have a baseline for how that "feels". Can I shoot it well? Sure. Do I like to shoot it? Absolutely! Do I shoot it with only full power loads? Yep and when I touch that thing off, if there is anyone at the range with me, they all turn and look because there is an enormous amount of noise when I do turn it on! Not trying, and I am sure that is not Paul's intent either, to impress anyone, just shooting a firearm as it was designed to be shot. Most folks are looking for 44Spl rounds to run in theirs so.............

p.s. I have no desire to shoot a M329. I have shot 3 1/2" 500S&W, 10" 460 S&W, and a host of other wrist wrenchers. The 44Mag, with full house loads, in an ultralight would seem to me to be in the same category as those. Have a purpose? Sure, just not one for me.
 
dla said:
<sigh> Have you shot the 329? The 329 is not a first revolver for a noob. Personally, if you can't shoot it enough to master it, then you should carry bear spray instead. There's not much mass to dampen out shooter movement - so if your technique sucks, the bear is safe.
Click to expand...

I'm having a hard time determining if you are pro M329 or just attacking someone with a differing opinion than yours.

What would you know about my technique? Really, dude, take a chill! :rolleyes:
 
smith crazy makes an excellent point on having a gun for carry and an exact duplicate for high volume firing.

Back before I retired I shot quite a bit.

When I carried a S&W Mod 29 I had a second one for practice. When I carried a 1911 I had a second one I practiced with and shot in competition.

It was not unusual for me to shoot up to 500 rounds or more a week.
In a school or durring training 500 rounds were shot every day minimum.

Later the last few years on the job I had to carry a Glock 17.

Many times when at a school we would shoot a thousand rounds a day, for five days straight.

Bottom line is,even if your carry gun is "solid" steel, If you are a High volume shooter, I would recommend you have an identical practice gun.

If your carry gun is on a "Light metal" frame, I would probably have a steel frame practice gun.
 
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Paul 105

Your posts have a lot of very good pertinent information in them.

How many of the 2400 rounds does it take to ruin the Blast shield?

Also, if anyone knows, can the Blast Shield be "changed at home"?

ie. If it takes xxx number of rounds to cut the Blast Shield in half, then the shooter could just put a new one in way before that happens.

Just buy a dozen of them and put one in before it becomes a problem.

I have a 325 NG, which no doubt in 45 ACP is not as hard on the Blast Shield, but I would like to have either a 329 NG or a 329 4".

While I might not shoot my 329's as much as you do in a short period of time, I think when I get one I will carry it a lot, so it will be shot a fair amount.

I also think it looks like S&W should have, and needs to, make that area of the 328 "tougher".
 
NE450No2

This picture was taken at 1,923 rounds and was emailed to S&W asking if this was normal -- their answer was yes. 857 rounds later the blast shield eroded in half and fell off - total round count 2,780 rounds. The frame had to be replaced along with the blast shield.

blastshield.jpg



Since I've been keeping records, in addition to the above, one blast shield came apart at 3,102 rounds, another one, still intact, fell off at 513 rounds, and another one also intact fell off at 427 rounds.

Unless S&W has changed the design, the blast shield can only be installed at the factory.

Paul
 
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Good post Paul. Thanks for showing the frame and all. That is terrible in my opinion. Certainly there is something that can be done to fix this better. Am I understanding you correctly, it fell off after only 427rounds and then another one 513?

Unacceptable, purely unacceptable.

What would happen if it happened on round 1 then? Wow!

Come on Smith and Wesson, get with the program!
 
Paul105

Thanks for the info.
With such a wide variation in the nuber of rounds fired,
it looks like to be safe, a person should have the recoil blast shield changed when it looks like it has been eroded about half its thickness. That way the frame should not yet be damaged.

So tell me why it must go back to the factory.
It looks like the front screw of the rear sight holds it in place.

IF it MUST go back to the factory with its present design, then S&W needs to change the design so the recoil shield can be changed at home...

How much could one cost??? Three dollars, five dollars, five dollars and five cents???

I can accept that a Scandium framed S&W , especially a Magnum is PRESSING THE ENVELOPE.

But they should have been aware of this problem, and engineered it to be maintained AT HOME.

Paul, thanks again for the great info.
 
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