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Old 05-23-2015, 11:19 AM
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SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading?  
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Exclamation SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading?

I recently ran into a leading problem with some SNS Hi-Tek coated 125 grain 9 MM bullets in my Beretta M9 (civilian version of the military handgun). I had loaded these up pretty hot, using 5.3 grains of WSF and loaded to an OAL of around 1.130. I had brought those loads to the range with my other Beretta, which is a P4X Storm subcompact with a 3" barrel (versus the 4.9" barrel of the M9) and had no leading issues in the Storm even after running a few hundred rounds through it about a month ago. So on another range visit I brought a couple hundred rounds and ran them through the M9. Towards the end of shooting it that day, it seemed like accuracy was going away and I quit shooting that pistol after running 4 boxes of these reloads through it and shot my 357's instead.

When I got home that evening and started cleaning pistols, I found the M9 barrel to be severely leaded up towards the end of the barrel. It took a hell of a lot of brushing and cleaning to clean out the lead from the barrel and I decided then and there that I was going to back down the powder charge when reloading with this powder/bullet combo combo in the future. There were no obvious overpressure signs on the cases and the cases resized normally when reloading them. For testing purposes, I backed the powder down 1/2 grain to 4.8 grains and tried them out in both the M9 and the Storm sub. They shot well and I saw no leading issues in either the 3" barrel of the Storm or the 4.9" barrel of the M9. Testing these on the M9 was done yesterday at an indoor range I belong to. I had run 100 rounds through the M9, breaking it down and looking for leading after each box. I saw no leading issues after 100 rounds. And in my car, I had found 1 mag loaded with the original 5.3 grain load left over from the range visit where I leaded the barrel so badly, so I then shot that mag of 15 and rechecked. After just that 1 mag of 15 rounds, I saw slight leading in the last 1 - 1 1/2 inches of the barrel.

The point of this thread is discuss a few things.

One is the bullet design of the SNS bullet I am shooting. This is their new offering, which has no traditional lube groove in it and it looks much like a FMJ bullet. This is a link to the bullet. Do you all think that the lack of a traditional lube groove makes these more susceptible to leading issues when pushing velocities?

Another issue is the fact that while I saw severe leading in the M9, which has a 4.9" barrel, I saw no leading in the P4X Storm sub, which has a 3" barrel length with the 5.3 grain loads. And the leading I saw in the M9 was more towards the end part of the barrel. I know that it is 2 different pistols (and designs), but they are made by the same manufacturer and the fact that the leading I saw looked to be toward the end of the longer barrel is telling me that I was seeing a breakdown of the Hi-Tek coating as speeds got higher in the longer barrel. Has anyone ever seen this in pistol range velocities with Hi-Tek coated bullets? Do you think that SNS might be doing something wrong with their application of the Hi-Tek coating?

One other thing I did notice when using these bullets and the WSF powder. WSF is a new powder to me, so I am not familiar at how cleanly it burns. But they seemed to be kind of smoky at both the 4.8 and 5.3 grain loadings. The pistols themselves didn't seem extraordinarily dirty after shooting them, but they definitely leave a bigger cloud of smoke than say, Longshot. So, is the smokiness from breakdown of the Hi-Tek coating or is it just the way WSF burns?

And I just ordered a Lewis lead remover kit for myself in case I run into leading problems in the future. I hate scrubbing lead out of barrels and I have been switching all my range ammo to coated lead recently to keep costs in check.
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Old 05-23-2015, 12:21 PM
1sailor 1sailor is offline
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SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading?  
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I don't have any first hand experince with WSF. I have shot a lot of their new grooveless bullets in 9mm and .45 acp though. My 9mm's were almost all fired through a M96 Beretta with my 9mm barrel using their 115gr, 135gr, and 147gr bullets. I have not had any leading issues at all. Sounds like maybe your initial loading is just a bit too much.
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Old 05-23-2015, 12:37 PM
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SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading?  
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What did you pay per thousand for those coated bullets ?
Precision Delta sells jacketed 124 grain FMJ 9mm bullets for $88.00 per K when you order 2000 or more . And this includes shipping .
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Old 05-23-2015, 12:54 PM
roscoepc roscoepc is offline
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SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading?  
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If I might ask, just what are those bullets coated with?? It don't look like copper??
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:01 PM
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SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading?  
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1sailor, yeah, I think it was a bit too stout. But from what I have read here and at the 1911 forums, the Hi-Tek coating is supposed to be good for at least 1700 fps without leading. They do shoot well at the 4.8 grain load level in my 9 MM pistols though.

Nick B, they are $68 per thousand and $15 shipping per box. Last time I ordered from SNS, I got 2k of the 9 MM 125 grain, 2k of the 357 158 grain SWC and 1k of the 44 cal 240 grain SWC coated bullets and total shipping was $30 for that order. Also, if you order 5k or more bullets (of all calibers) at one time, they give a 5% discount too. That's why I ordered 5k of bullets on my last order. And if you order 10k or more bullets, they give a 10% discount.
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:04 PM
1sailor 1sailor is offline
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SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading?  
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Pretty much everyone has a line of coated bullets. I think it's some kind of a polymere or powder coating. Works very well with considerably less smoke than traditional lubed bullets. Don't confuse coated bullets with plated bullets. Not the same thing.
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:05 PM
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Did you check a loading manual for that load? WSF is a pretty fast powder, and that seems like a fairly hot load. sometimes it takes just .2 a grain increase in a powder to hit a very high peak pressure. I was recently loading Hornady 147 gr XTP's with AA#5. The Accurate load info indicated 5.3 gr as max, the Hornady listed 4.8 gr. as max. I tend to usually follow the powder mfg. guide when there is a choice, so I backed it to 5.1 gr. and it shot well, vel. 910. Power factor 133. I loaded a few at 5.3, and the primers looked to have been totally flattened, and the few shots I made ran over 1200 fps. Pretty obvious I had exceeded the max. The rest of those loads have been pulled apart. I load Bayou bullets (powder coat) 125's just above 1050, and have never gotten any leading.
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:06 PM
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SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading? SNS Hi-Tek coated lead and barrel leading?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roscoepc View Post
If I might ask, just what are those bullets coated with?? It don't look like copper??
It is supposed to be the "Hi-Tek Supercoat" coating that is made in Australia, I believe.

Here's a link to the SNS page on the coating: <<<Link>>>
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:22 PM
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I did decide to use that load after looking at the Hodgdon Data Loading Center for WSF data in 9 MM. It is definitely on the hot end of their load data and I did load that way on purpose. I was looking to see what the limits are on these coated bullets and if (or when) the coating would lose effectiveness as speeds and pressure ramped up. Other than leading, I didn't see any gross pressure indications on the cases. Primers looked normal for shooting out of a Beretta, no primer pocket size changes, no brass expansion at the web area of the case and normal resizing effort when running them through my Dillon carbide sizing die.

I do know what you are talking about on radical changes in pressure with a few tenths difference in charge though. I have seen that in 9 MM with old AA #2 (90's manufacture) versus present manufactured AA #2. The new powder must be faster than the old, as loads that were safe with the old stuff are dangerously overpressured with the recent A #2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
Did you check a loading manual for that load? WSF is a pretty fast powder, and that seems like a fairly hot load. sometimes it takes just .2 a grain increase in a powder to hit a very high peak pressure. I was recently loading Hornady 147 gr XTP's with AA#5. The Accurate load info indicated 5.3 gr as max, the Hornady listed 4.8 gr. as max. I tend to usually follow the powder mfg. guide when there is a choice, so I backed it to 5.1 gr. and it shot well, vel. 910. Power factor 133. I loaded a few at 5.3, and the primers looked to have been totally flattened, and the few shots I made ran over 1200 fps. Pretty obvious I had exceeded the max. The rest of those loads have been pulled apart. I load Bayou bullets (powder coat) 125's just above 1050, and have never gotten any leading.
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Old 05-23-2015, 02:42 PM
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Email or call the man at SNS and tell him your problem,they are very knowledgeable and helpful with their coated bullets.
It almost sounds as if you are scraping some of the coating during the loading process.I have found I have had to slightly increase the flare with any coated bullet and make sure the cases are chamfered inside the neck and the neck surface is clean.The coating is tough but you can damage it in the initial loading.
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Old 05-23-2015, 04:16 PM
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Milton, I actually did pull the bullets from a few of those 5.3 grain loads with a kinetic puller and didn't see any coating scraped off of the bullets I pulled. That's not to say that some might have been scraped off on some that I didn't pull, but I haven't seen any scraping issues on the ones I did pull. And I either vibrator clean or wet clean with SS pins on all my brass, depending on my mood and how fast I want to process the brass. So my cases are pretty clean, inside and out.

I might drop the SNS folks a line about this though. And I also plan to get to the range with some water filled jugs or balloons to see if I can recover a few bullets in them and see what the coating looks like. But it has been raining here so much I haven't been able to get to the outdoor range to do so.
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Old 05-23-2015, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
One is the bullet design of the SNS bullet I am shooting. This is their new offering, which has no traditional lube groove in it and it looks much like a FMJ bullet. This is a link to the bullet. Do you all think that the lack of a traditional lube groove makes these more susceptible to leading issues when pushing velocities?
Nope .. I do the same and it works brilliantly at all velocities, even into rifles. It's not the groove.
In fact, Im glad to be rid of it.


Quote:
Another issue is the fact that while I saw severe leading in the M9, which has a 4.9" barrel, I saw no leading in the P4X Storm sub, which has a 3" barrel length with the 5.3 grain loads. And the leading I saw in the M9 was more towards the end part of the barrel. I know that it is 2 different pistols (and designs), but they are made by the same manufacturer and the fact that the leading I saw looked to be toward the end of the longer barrel is telling me that I was seeing a breakdown of the Hi-Tek coating as speeds got higher in the longer barrel. Has anyone ever seen this in pistol range velocities with Hi-Tek coated bullets? Do you think that SNS might be doing something wrong with their application of the Hi-Tek coating?
I've used powder coating in rifles. Different animal that behaves much the same. What you describe is typical of a botched batch. Try the acetone test ... I bet it fails.

Velocity related coating failures manifest themselves as leading along the breach facing edge of your rifling where the cutting forces are the greatest.
The rest of the bore is typically pristine despite this failure.
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Old 05-23-2015, 06:31 PM
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Hmmmm? Lets see. Hodgdon does not list a 125 in lead with WSF but does a 124. So lets go with that. A max of 4.7 with a COL of 1.169.

Did you chronograph them??

SNS lists the following for their bullets:

Use lead data and keep below 1500 fps and flair so as to not scrape the coating.

Bullet Information

So yes, it seems you are to HOT.
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Old 05-23-2015, 09:10 PM
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I shoot WSF in 9mm but use SNS's 147gr, also without the lube groove. I've noticed very little smoke, but my load is MUCH softer, 3,8 grs which gave me 850 fps out of a 4" barrel. I need to bump this load .1 gr. When I ran it across the chrono it was about 45 degress. I figure with .1 gr more and more normal temps, I live in Southern California, I'll be close to the 870 fps I want.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:05 AM
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Hi-Tek is NOT the same as powder coating. The latter can take way higher velocities all other things being equal. I found this out the hard way. A copper ChoreBoy wrapped around a brush made lead removal fairly easy in the barrel of my .50BMG.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbqncigars View Post
Hi-Tek is NOT the same as powder coating. The latter can take way higher velocities all other things being equal. I found this out the hard way. A copper ChoreBoy wrapped around a brush made lead removal fairly easy in the barrel of my .50BMG.

HUH?? Powder coating is more durable than the Hi Tek??

I think that may be open to debate.

Were is Venom he knows this stuff.
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Old 05-25-2015, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
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HUH?? Powder coating is more durable than the Hi Tek??

I think that may be open to debate.

Were is Venom he knows this stuff.
The velocity award goes to powder coating.
HT system is a better fit for most users.
in either case, they fail at their respective points in similar ways.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:23 PM
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Muddocktor,Did you get your problem resolved? Curious as to how things worked out for you.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:06 PM
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I've loaded up SNS's coated 125gr in as full power a load as 2400 will offer and not had leading. You have to go pretty nuts before you defeat Hi-Tek and I agree PC is even better. BUT... The last Beretta M92 I had required a .358" lead bullet to not lead the bore. It sounds like yours may be the same. I'm guessing here but maybe the coating is failing due to bore fit and leaving leading in the end of the bore. I never slugged the bore on mine since sizing to .358" worked but you might try the same in yours and see if that works.
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Old 05-27-2015, 03:58 PM
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I would also put a caliper on a pulled bullet and see what it measures. These tough little auto cases love to swage bullets down. You won't see the coating scraped off but the bullet will be smaller. I used an alloy too soft on my 9mm loads and I would get case swaging from 357 to start swaged down to 354-355....lead city. I use a 38 S&W expander plug in my 9mm die to help with this. Only seat your bullets as deep as absolutely needed to chamber. No matter the hardness, if you seat too deep you get into the really thick part of the brass and it will swage your lead bullet.
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Old 05-27-2015, 06:13 PM
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I suspect your loading technique. I shoot hi-trek coated, no leading, but only running max of 1000fps. Over crimping, not enough flare at the case mouth, the coating will be broken. I've just started doing my own coated, so I will exp more with higher vel, but it should be good to 1600fps +.
Fwiw, WSF is a great 9mm powder. It is a medium burner, not fast at all. I find it a bit slower than Unique. Your 5.3gr load is running hard, but not max in most guns, at least my exp.
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