Yesterday I shot an IDPA match with my 625-4 .45 ACP that has a 2" barrel from a 625-10 installed. Before the match I decided I'd give the gun a good cleaning. I put a couple hundred rounds of various types of ammo through it and it hadn't been cleaned thoroughly since I got it back from the 'smith. First stage with the sparkling bore it's clear that some of the hits are out of round. The bullet is a commercial hard cast 230 gr. RN that had been shooting perfectly until now. While it's clear that some of the holes are not round, there is nothing dramatic like sideways hits. This problem continues for about three or four cylindersful and then disappears. I have never experienced anything like this before. Does anybody have an explanation for this? Does S&W use a different rifling process with some of these newer 625 barrels?

Dave Sinko

EDM rifling? Unknown alloy and lube combo? Consistent pressure in all your loads? A few bad bullets that you don't know if they were sized right? Is this all to say the bore was lined with lead when you got home???

Fouling shots are standard in many matches to get the gun shooting to aim, eliminating a cold barrel, ensuring that the same bullet lube is consistant throughout the bore, as well as sight picture. I can't comment on the rifiling of the 625 but grouping does change for me with a clean bbl than a fouled one. Fouled not meaning dirty just coated with the same lube that you will shoot with.

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Front sight and squeeze

Not much help here. Never had that happen before. Since they are commercially cast, are they really hard? Can you dent them with your fingernail? How do they fit in you throats, clean and dirty? What is your load?

I go with this.

No wonder I can't hit anything, my guns are too clean!

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Still Running Against the Wind

Wait, are we talking rifles or a two inch barrel revolver...

That sounds like how you describe a bench rest rifle shooting...

I have to ask if the targets were backed up by cardboard in good condition. Last time at the range I noticed some keyholing with my hits on the paper. Looking closely at the target revealed it was just the way the paper was tearing. Put a sticker on the target to confirm my suspicion and the hits on the sticker were perfectly round. It's one issue with round nose ammo, if you shoot into an unsupported paper target you don't get nice clean holes like you do with a wadcutter.

Have you slugged the clean bbl? It is possbile it is slightly oversize & your bullets are skidding a bit, then you get some lead build up ealry in the bbl & following bullets are being stabilized with a slight decrease in groove dia? Just a guess. Lead bulelts run best when sized to fit groove dia UNLESS the throats are larger, then try to mtch throat size. If the thorats are small, the bullets nedd to be softer & bump up on hitting the bbl grooves.

Ive run into related issues.
clean bore, iffy accuracy and leading.
the problem with fouling shots was that the bore got leaded a bit too.
How I solved this was with a bore mop slathered with grease.
I'd run this through to get a light coat of grease in the bore and between the next four shots. thereafter the bore was seasoned to spit heavy metal all day without a hitch.

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it just needs more voltage

Same theory I use for my muzzleloader. T/C Encore, Hornady Sabots with their 250gr FTX. Between shots, I use a T17 seasoning patch followed by 2 dry ones, and it makes the bullets seat consistently.

Accuracy is exceptional even with open sights.

The ammo is good. I loaded a few thousand rounds of this stuff a while back and use it as a match load in all my 625s and Glock 21 (Bar-Sto barrel) and never had any stability problems until now with this short barrel. The targets are cardboard and not floppy. I suspect the barrel, either due to its short length (ALL my 2" barrels misbehave with something or other) or the way it was rifled. Or both?

Can leading really be beneficial? Once the bore starts to catch lead, can it reach a happy state of leading and then shoot well, if it turns out that the bore really is slightly oversize?

I guess I should slug the bore first to know the exact dimensions.

Dave Sinko

no ... leading is bad ... whats useful is that greasy sludge like fowling produced by the lube and powder.
it seems to provide a slick non stick layer and perhaps even some sealing capacity.
Since your using this load in a revolver, perhaps another observation may apply. one thing ive noticed in a 44 magnum using a load of fast burning powder in 44 specials was that the load suffered some inaccuracy and all recovered slugs were flat sided as if they skidded across the rifling rather than engage it . a slower burning powder seemed to end this, leanding to a theory that the fast rate powder had the bullet moving too fast at the time it passed through the cone ... the slow powder made its speed in the barrel after it passed the cone

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it just needs more voltage

Is this a light load? The load I use in my 4, 6 and 8 3/8 inch 38's shoots just great, but in my 38 snubby it shoots awful, 8 inch groups at 7 yards. I shoot steel so not sure about keyholing. Problem is its too slow out of the snubby. Bumped the load by .2 grains and it puts em all in one splatter mark on the steel.

Bores season. That's why you never, ever clean a 22lr bore until the end of the season.

The principles are the same, it just takes far less shooting to coat a 2" bbl.
I believe that far more guns are ruined by over zealously cleaning them than by shooting out the mechanism's.

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Front sight and squeeze

I find that statement more "internet folk lore" than anything else.

Where is a proven scientific study proving that? Why is a 22 any different than any other ammo? The magic lube used on some bullets? Some are lead, some copper plated. So 22's don't get dirty but other calibers do??

So that statement should be true for a .223 Rem also.

Right up there with "breaking in a new rifle barrel" cleaning every shot, but it's not needed for handguns??

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Still Running Against the Wind

A .22 LR rifle actually never needs cleaning. Just look back at the thousands of blocks of wood the Nylon 66 shot without cleaning. In fact, for a trying experience, attempt to break a Nylon 66 down for cleaning. A .223 normally doesn't shoot lead bullets, plated or otherwise, so it's comparing apples to oranges.

I don't know if there is a problem with your load in the short barrel of your revolver. I've been shooting commercially hard cast lead bullets in my 1903 rifle for several years using a mild 8.0 gr. load of Unique. At 100 yds., it routinely produces 10 ring or smaller groups. If I clean the barrel thoroughly, the first couple of 10 shot strings will not do as well. Then the barrel settles down and starts producing its normal results with that load. As a result I've not cleaned the barrel on that rifle in over two years of use in competitive vintage military rifle matches. I just wipe it with a bore snake. Perhaps it is similar to the results you've been getting with your revolver.

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We were told not to clean our NM M14s during the shooting season. We removed and cleaned the trigger group. Wiped down the outside metal parts with a dry rag then a lightly oiled rag. Ran a rag through the mag well and that was it. The bore was left alone and the barrel/action assembly never left the stock. Of course we shot the same lot number of ammo all season as well.

The guys shooting small bore did not clean the bores and shot the same ammo as well during the entire season. The theory was that differant manufactures used differant lubes and mixing lube types was bad for accuracy.

I have several Nylon 66's. When purchased a few had so much gunk in them, it required a "putty" knife to clean. And yes I can take them apart. They worked dirty, So? The rifling in a 22 magically does not get fouled??

Yes, you can shoot thousands of rounds through them as you can any gun. The infamous Glock, XD, Berreta tests. Doesn't mean that accuracy does not suffer. I only used 223 as it is a 22 bullet.

So apples or oranges it still is no "proof" that a 22 is any different than any other caliber. Find a statistically valid test that proves a 22 need not be cleaned??

It's a firearm like any other tool, it needs to be cleaned.

This article is about Marlins but the gist is the same. It's even written in Western Wisdom

Western Wisdom: Cleaning a Marlin .22 Rimfire Rifle

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Still Running Against the Wind

No.

Unless you are using a propellant that creates hard crud in the bore (blackpowder) or shooting undersized cast bullets that are plugging up the rifling, you don't need to be cleaning the bore.

My Marlin Guide Gun is an example: Perfectly clean bore equals wide groups. After about 5-6 shots the groups have tightened up. My theory is that my Marlin's barrel, which has various restrictions from stamped nomenclature and broach-cut dovetails, gets filled in and smoothed out from the "fouling shots". This is true with jacketed and cast (more pronounced with cast).

Maybe if I owned something with an after market, high-quality barrel I would have different experience.

Regarding 22lr, I was simply passing on what the expert shooters do.

I sent a Nylon #66 to a friend that was a missionary in Africa. He used it to shoot monkeys with. Even shot 2 bush fowl(guinea fowl) with one shot, once.

Rule, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? Seemed a bit harsh to our friend Paul, dude!

He probably is just drawing on the gazillion years of experience he personally has had with his original Nylon #66. No need to get argumentative!


Personally, I clean them all. 22LR to 45 Colt and everything inbetween.

Just me though!

I also have to state that I have never cleaned a handgun like I have a high powered rifle upon break in. I have a .358WSSM that got completely cleaned between each and every shot for the first 25 rounds. Then, only after the next 5 rounds and now only after every 50. (or so)

The ONLY reason that I did that was that that was the manufacturer's requirement to keep the barrel in the MOA guarantee. I did it though. Never have for a handgun, then again, I ain't shooting 100 yards with my Glock 21 for a sub MOA group, either!

MOBG (minute of bad guy) @ 50' would be good enough for that!

Excuse me. I was not argumentative. To state that a 22 "Never" needs to be cleaned? come on.

In your own words.
"Neither of us needs someone running interference for us."

Talk about calling the kettle black. Perhaps you should look at your previous posts on the H110 saga and see who is being rude. All the highlights, underlines etc. You know whats rude? Calling someone Dude, I am not a DUDE. Calling a local gun shop person a Pusher, that's rude.

So between you and Paul you guys know everything.

Easy way to solve this. I will continue to clean my guns, those that don' want to, certainly don't have to.

Oh by the way, I collect Nylon rifles ,so I know a bit about them. Using the marketing trick shooting proves nothing. You can shoot 1000 rounds out of pretty much any gun.

But that's not the point. A 22 shoots a projectile with lube, uses powder just like any other gun. Like I said, must be magic self cleaning bullets

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Still Running Against the Wind

Well, at least we found your "UP" button!

Those terms are used as slang and our local "gun/reloading components/pusher" doesn't mind! In fact, when he sees us addicts coming in for a "fix" he kinda agrees! Dude!

Sorry if that seems rude, just a manner of speech!

Seriously, you collect Nylons?

p.s. Well, we will certainly agree on one thing, I clean EVERY gun I own. 2 reasons: #1; that's the way my dad taught me. #2; that's the way the Marine Corps taught me.

If it takes a bit to settle in the next time I shoot it, that is fine with me. I am going to shoot anyway, right? So, I shoot for a group after 5 shots. Okay, I'm good with that.

The whole thing about the cleaning of the bore when you are breaking in a barrel, I didn't say I agreed with that, I just did it to keep my warranty valid.

Do you clean your firearms (should have read: handguns!) like that when you break them in? If so, that is the first I have ever heard of anyone doing that. Not that its wrong or anything, just the first I've ever heard of doing it for a pistol.

And Ruger M II pistols, 10/22 rifles, High Standards, Marlin 39's, Mossbergs, Brownings, Ithaca and of course SW revolvers and guess what?. Everyone of them has been cleaned. But heck what do I know? Only been shooting them since I was a Boy Scout (Life) Think I still have some merit badges.

Never broke in a barrel except as I mentioned a Savage 223 Varmint which was one of the few brand new guns I bought. Kinda of a half arse break in as I think that's a bunch of bull also. No never broke in a handgun

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Still Running Against the Wind

I'm with you on cleaning, friend. Just can't get away from that. Old habits die hard.

That being said, my M25 -7 is a sight! 200 rounds of Unique under a 280gr LSWC! NASTY! But it was fun shooting those decorative pumpkins or gourds or whatever she called them before she donated them to the "target" bag!

I am loading some I.P.P. under some 200gr LSWC and 230gr LRN. Maybe it will bring the POA and POI together. With those heavier bullets it shoots about 4" high @ 25 yards with the rear sight all of the way down.

At any rate, clean is good.

Rule3's Apache looks better than mine...

I need to fix my front sight.