Thanks Erich, and you are right about every shooting being different too, many people don't think about who is being shot, which makes a big difference.

The combat experts whose experience comes from a competition range think that COM is the best place to aim because that's where their scoring rings are located. COM used to be taught because that gave the most room for error, not because there is anything special there to hit.

No it's not brass but iron, the Mihec is a copy of the RCBS/Ohaus 270SAA. I really accurate bullet. I have Mihec in 40, really nice molds.
As to the 2 to the body 1 to the head. Nice thought but reallity says you don't train that way for every scenario. First, it's almost impossible to guarantee a hit on a moving head while you are moving also. I know many that throw this concept out there, but few can actually execute it. Try this: a 4" baloon on a 12" string, outdoors, some wind is desireable. Not start @ 7yds & present & move, go for 2+1, let me know how many times you miss that head shot while on the move. A missed shot is a liabilty. Then there is the multiple attacker scenario. Train to deliver 2+1 & the 2nd guy is killing you while you are putting rounds into the first. the 2+1 has a very specific use, it's not good general training principle IMO & that of many other instructors.

These were bottom poured BUT from a 10# pot. I have ladled them too. That works good when the mould is a little cold. Like "pressure" casting.

Fred the point was keep shooting until the threat stops.

Paul, caliber has nothing to do with it. There are many places in the head where a bullet will not cause incapacitation. Head shots are risky business in a gunfight because the lethal target area is really small and is easily moved.

0ver the last 56+ years in which I have owned and fired guns of almost all varieties I have experienced a few, actually very, very few, failures to fire with factory centerfire ammo. A few failures with .22 rimfire, but not many centerfire rounds. Even some of the 1939 vintage 7.35 Italian military ammo I have that's now become too valuable as a collector item to fire still fired like new just a few years ago. On the other hand, I recently experienced quite a few misfires and an occasional hangfire with CCI small pistol primers that I had used to reload some .380 brass. I suppose CCI uses the same primers for it's loaded ammo, but I have never had a misfire with any CCI factory ammo. Go figure.

If recoil of factory .41 mag ammo is a tad too much for comfort maybe you should consider downshifting to a large frame .357 mag revolver for SD purposes. The .357 125 gr hollowpoint round has been at or near the top rank of SD ammo for many years, and even though it's incredibly loud it's recoil isn't as bad as a typical .41 mag revolver of the same size and weight. Of course if you also use the same revolver for hunting game larger and/or tougher than whitetail deer the .357 might not have enough moxie to do the job, but there's no law that says you can't own both. Not yet anyway, but don't count on it staying that way if Whambamyurmama gets another 4 years to appoint ultra-liberal Supreme Court Justices.

I'm not sure of that either in regard to jacketed HP handgun ammo, but I think I remember (emphasis on THINK) swaged lead HP bullets being available in some popular handgun cartridges even before 1964. S&W's .357 mag revolver went on the market in the late 1930s, and by 1956 when I became old enough (18) to buy one in FL I'm kinda sure but not positive that US ammo manufacturers were offering swaged lead HP bullets in at least a few of the popular revolver cartridges of that day and time, and the .357 mag cartridge was definitely popular with those folks who could afford the guns chambered for it.

Later on I owned several .357 revolvers one gun at a time, but the .357 round was never one of my favorites. Maybe that's because I don't hunt with handguns, it's loud enough to deafen a person for hours when fired in an enclosed space such as a bedroom or hallway, and I always had more than one loaded .45 acp pistol stashed in secured places around our house. That was just in case somebody who I didn't want in the house tried to come in either by stealth or by force. My house is much smaller now that I'm retired, but my .45's bullets aren't.

I get that, but I hear the 2+1 all the time & I would bet 95% of shooters can not execute it under combat conditions. So shoot until the threat is stops makes waaaay more sense.

A Model 57 was my first new handgun. I shot it about twice a week. Ammo was cheap back then. I tried a few boxes of the police loads, but hey were too wimpy, and leaded the barrel.

I normally used the Winchester 210 JHP. Stout load. I fired maybe 2500-3000 rounds though it over the course of several years, and loved every trigger pull.

I have a nice 27-2, but it's too nice to carry. I bought my 58 in well used condition. It's perfect for me. I don't get mad when I scratch it.

I can handle the recoil, I just don't think I need a hog load for up close SD.

The .41 mag was my favorite duty gun and I usually carried a 3" 657 in a custom made, speed draw holster. My duty load was a 215 gr. SWC cast from wheel weights in a Lyman #410610 mold, over 14.0 grains of Bluedot.

Jelly,
I have to get this straight. Are you saying that as a police officer, constable or sheriff's deputy, that you carried handloads ON DUTY?

When was this? 1890 what? Surely it wasn't in this century seeing as it is TABOO to carry handloads as self defense loads! No to mention how litigious it would be for a municipality should you have to shoot someone!

YOU MUST BE JUST KIDDING, RIGHT?

I know a well-respected LEO member of this very forum who carries handloads on duty. He very reasonably might not care to discuss it in public, though.

Skip, I can't tell if your laughing or if your head is spinning.

Well, since I'm retired now I will...

For many years I carried Silvertips in my duty guns, just because I liked them. Then I started on a small little department that didn't have their own requalification range officer and depended on someone from other agencies to requalify us. This was a nightmare because they were always cancelling out on us at the last minute. Then one day the chief called and said that we were going to qualify the next day, that was the only day the guy he found could do it. Trouble was it didn't leave me enough time to load up some practice ammo. ( I shoot a lot.) So, I had to shoot up all my Silvertips, plus some heavier loads I had on hand, to qualify.

When I went to re-order some more I wondered why I couldn't just carry my practice loads, which were made to simulate the recoil of the Silvertips, because I liked them better anyway.

The departments policy manual had nothing about what kind of ammunition we carried and the only thing about which firearms we carried was that the chief had to approve it. The Chief said he didn't care as long as the county prosecutor said there was nothing wrong with it, and he (the prosecutor) said there were no laws against it that he knew of.

By the way, I retired in 2007 and never heard anything about the "taboo" until I realized there were internet gun forums, which was in 2005.

We have a local LEO that up until just a few months ago did the same thing. He carried a M629 that was engraved to the hilt and stocked with some 180gr bullets loaded to the maximum with 2400 or H110/W296, can't remember.

The funniest part of that whole story is that Mas goes to his range to teach classes and teaches against ordinary folks doing the same! hahahahaha

Oh, wait, my head is spinning! hahaha

Interestingly, I recall reading about a fellow who, after a failure of factory ammo at an inopportune moment, would only carry his own handloads for self-defense. He would carefully seat the primers with a hand-seating tool, making sure to feel the primer legs bottom out without crushing the primer pellet. He would test the ammo for fit and function, and then mark it so he knew it was his and had passed his tests. Then, he would shoot it up every year or two and make a fresh batch, so he knew the ammo wasn't old... Puts an interesting spin on things, doesn't it?? I have a small collection of factory mistakes at my loading bench, including a case with no flashhole between the primer pocket and the powder chamber...


As far as carrying cast, I can't due to dept. policy, but in the right calibers I wouldn't have any qualms doing so. Here's a Lyman 358156 hollow-pointed for me by Buchshot over at Cast Boolits:

This one is my "Winchester" HP design that I based off the curvature of some Winchester JHPs (in a different caliber, actually).

A cup point for high velocity HPs in the 357 Mag loadings (smaller HP prevents over-expansion/disintegration of the HP at high velocity).

Replica of the standard Lyman HP pin shape for comparison testing.

The reason I sent the mould to him for HPing. This is a combination of my thoughts and another CB member named BEN who is an excellent caster and experimenter. I came up with an idea, and Buckshot pointed me at a picture of what he had already done for BEN, and I changed the tip of the pin at the bottom of the cavity and this is what Buckshot sent me. This should open at very low velocities, like 600-700 fps. I imagine it would explode like a Glaser safety slug at high 357 Mag velocities. (This is actually bad, because it significantly impairs penetration.)

One of these days I'm going to get a gelatin test done on these four variations for comparison testing.



The interesting thing about the OP's question is that the dead-soft pure Lead RB and Minie ball garnered a good reputation for killing because soft lead tends to hold together while expanding, even without a HP. So, if you stick to low velocity, and a very soft alloy (like 95-5 lead-to-tin), a SWC or something with a mild HP will still expand, and if it's heavy enough, it will penetrate. I'd take the cup point above out of 95-5 in a 200gr bullet mould and bet it would expand, and penetrate and do a good job of putting down an attacker. Not dissimilar to the WWII British 380-200 revolver load, but with dead-soft bullet with small HP cavity...

Experts say you should practice with carry load. How long that box going to last?

Boys, boys, boys . . . Are we gonna have to send you to your rooms for a time out?

All I can say is that FL law states the use of a firearm is deadly force--not use of a firearm loaded with (name your ammo).

Practicing w/ an equiv carry load. You gain nothing by shooting expensive JHP for practice. Just load/shoot equiv cheap FMJ or lead loads. All you are trying to mimic is recoil & POI. You should already know your chosen SD ammo functions. So yes, 50rds of high end factory should last anyone a min of 2yrs.
Choosing factory vs handloads is a personal decision. For me, I see no advantage, none, not one, in choosing a handload over factory ammo but cost, UNLESS it's for an obscure caliber or something that makes my carrry guns choice a better tool for the job. Like downloaded 44mags for when my backpack gun comes into the city.

Having read all the responses to this OP, I will not add fuel to the fire of opinion. I will however say that I have used cast lead SWC bullets for 30 years in revolvers. And... I've used them in .45 ACP loads for 1911 type pistols. I like them. In my experience, they work very well both in accuracy and on target effectiveness. Hard cast bullets penetrate like crazy. I've not had any that expanded except when they hit dirt/rock. I've used the Speer swaged lead bullets. At low velocity, they are very accurate. When pushed to hard, they have leaded my barrels.

Currently a Beretta 92FS sits on our nightstand. Loaded with JHP ammo it is well suited to the task of HD/SD. When I can find and buy some more Speer 200 gr. Gold Dot JHP .44 Special ammo, then my S&W 21-4 will be placed on my nightstand and the Beretta will go by her in the den in her knitting bag. Lead SWC bullets would be fine. But I figure the JHP's stand a better chance of being effective if it should become necessary to use a firearm in SD/HD.

__________________
<><

In all of my defense handguns, I alternate hollow points with flat points or SWC's depending upon caliber. In 5.56, I alternate M855's with Sierra 65 SBT's.

If one don't get' em, the other will.

Just because I'm paranoid does not mean they are not out to get me.

S/F.

Judging the way my cast bullets drop deer (which are man sized animals), I think that I prefer cast bullets. However, people wear clothing, unlike animals, and the fabric inhibits penetration, so I believe the most effective anti-personnel bullet is a polymer tipped hollow point.
That said....I think if you are looking for personal defense....it would be prudent to use COMMERCIAL LOADS.......to avoid any legal issues.
I carry loads from CorBon like the DPX (All Copper) or the new Hornady Personal Defense loads. The CorBon are probably the most accurate loads I have shot, and I practice with loads that I work up to replicate the CorBon.
Terry

Terry,
Which legal issues would those be?

The ones that anti-gunners threaten to take away our rights without any law being passed or the opinion of some guy that claims they are an expert on the subject that gets paid by ammo manufacturers?

Just wondering and would like some clarification, and, um, proof.

Skip,

You are truly a man after my own heart - oh, wait you were a gyrene too.

Re: using commercial ammo for defense - I have chrono'd Buffalo Bore out of a lot of guns and it is generally hotter than I like to reload. It always meets or exceeds its' advertised velocities, even out of 1-7/8" J Frames. I have been reloading since 1976 and am a mechanical engineer, so I know a little about testing stuff.

Only in the various People's Republics is a prosecutor going to try to indict an honest citizen for capping a dirt bag. Most prosecutors are going to breathe a silent "Thank You" for getting rid of a creep that they couldn't put away.

If a prosecutor is concerned about using hand loads, my response would be that I could buy Buffalo Bore and have a lot hotter ammo. Also, I could have used a .45 or a .357 or a 12 gauge instead of a 9mm or a .38 . I have never had a problem with my defense hand loads. I do 100% weighing and QC inspection on every round. I have had a few (Federal .45 Hydra Shock) that were duds. God help someone with a primer only round at the beginning of a double tap.

Skip, please PM or e-mail me - couple of things I want to discuss off the grid.

S/F,

RAS

In regards to "deadly force," Florida Statute 776.06 (776 covers justifiable use of force) states:

Deadly force.—(1) The term “deadly force” means force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm and includes, but is not limited to:
(a) The firing of a firearm in the direction of the person to be arrested, even though no intent exists to kill or inflict great bodily harm; and
(b) The firing of a firearm at a vehicle in which the person to be arrested is riding.

Note that no where in there does it state "firearms loaded with factory loads only" (or otherwise in regards to any type of ammo). The use of the firearm is deadly force, not the ammo.

I think if a firearm is used to defend ones life then deadly force is justified or you will have much more to worry about than handloads. I do not see how any load can kill deader than another.

I was advised in my CCW class to NEVER ever carry handloaded ammunition. If you end up using it in a self defense situation, that will needlessly give you exposure for some poop-heel lawyer to convince a gullible jury that you concocted super deadly double secret probation ammo designed to cause needless suffering and injury or death to his poor, misunderstood client (who had a difficult childhood). If you use factory made ammo, the manufacturer is liable for that.

So the theory goes, anyway. FWIW, YMMV, ETC.

I think American culture is obsessed with techincal fixes to behavioral issues. In this case, the technical fix is a 'magic' bullet (Golden Saber, Hydro-shok, Nuclear-warhead tip, etc, etc) that will make a 90 degree around cover, knock one's opponent on their derriere, then phone for the police. The behavioral issue is learning to shoot accurately.

Personally when I'm carrying a .357 with handloads utilizing the aforementioned 358156 bullets I feel I am as well armed...as my training.

Please site case law where this happened just one time, please.

Not your fault for thinking this way. The myth has spread far and wide to the point "We All Know" that it's true. It is being passed on for the most part by well-meaning but uninformed gunners. If they want to carry factory-only SD ammo, vaya con Dios.

The problem will come when some jackal actually uses it in a prosecutorial setting because they heard about it at their CCW class. Instructors should be held to a higher standard. Unfortunately, they are not.

If you buy a bullet and shoot someone with it, how exactly is the manufacturer liable for anything?

We've beat this to death several times on this forum, I guess everyone that knows about it is as lazy as me and hasn't posted any links.

Anyway, "the don't use reloads for self defense" was started with an article by Masaad Ayoob. Mas, who is a member here, has joined in on several of the discussions and made it clear that the reason he made that statement was that in case you had to defend yourself in court, handloaded ammunition didn't have factory records and samples that could be entered in your behalf. It had nothing to do with any malfeasance from the "barristers".

If your instructor really told you that any ammo maker is going to take the heat off of you because you shot someone with "their" ammo, please tell him I said he's an idiot. They are only responsible for injuries or damage caused by defects in their product.

"Anyway, "the don't use reloads for self defense" was started with an article by Masaad Ayoob. Mas, who is a member here, has joined in on several of the discussions and made it clear that the reason he made that statement was that in case you had to defend yourself in court, handloaded ammunition didn't have factory records and samples that could be entered in your behalf. It had nothing to do with any malfeasance from the "barristers".


I wonder when Masaad said that?
The notion may go back further than his teachings.
I have a copy of "Handgun Digest" from 1991 written by Dean Grennell. He mentions the same thing in his hand loading section. Right after he cautions reloaders not to go commercial, unless they have a chat with their insurance company!

rat

Just passing along some information, and not endorsing anything. Some of you guys are wound a little tight.

I know it isn't intentional on YOUR part but, if I was to pass on something that was of questionable integrity, or totally inaccurate, or fabricated, to scare the snot out of you so you didn't exercise your God given rights, would you just call me a "little tight" or a liar?

I don't pass things on that have no foundation in truth, um, period............

Who makes the HP mold? I would like to get one.

MIHA;s 360 mold in 158grn

I didn't mean he was the first or only one to ever say it, he wrote an article that appeared in a magazine and then on the internet that sort of went "viral" among the gun forums. He wrote that he worked on a case where the guy went to prison for using handloads, which is where the debate comes in. I have read others saying not to use them because of the attorney bashing, which nobody has ever been able to cite when, where or who, but this was the first time anybody has ever attempted to provide "proof".

I only have a couple things from Dean Grennel and he dosn't mention that in them, does he give an explanation of why he thinks you shouldn't use them for self defense? During our earlier horse beatings the only instances we could find of a shooters choice of ammunition causing any problems in court both involved factory ammo.

By the way, Masaad Ayoob has been around quite awhile, although I believe the case he worked on happened in 1989 or thereabouts and he was involved in the third trial from what I can tell, so his article might have come after Dean Grennels book.

You all know that I carry handloads pretty often, but I just thought of another possible arrow in the quiver of the no-handloads-for-carry school. Not my area of law, though, so I'm going to run it past some civil lawyers before saying anything about it here.

"I only have a couple things from Dean Grennel and he dosn't mention that in them, does he give an explanation of why he thinks you shouldn't use them for self defense? During our earlier horse beatings the only instances we could find of a shooters choice of ammunition causing any problems in court both involved factory ammo."


He just says that a civil trial lawyer can compare the defendant to Jack the Ripper for using evil handloads!
I suspect that the plaintiff has to say something if they have gone to court, and that could include introducing comments made by the defendant on an online forum about the effectiveness of various types of guns and ammo for self defense. Something about a preoccupation with shooting someone. Maybe the defendant could turn the argument around by testifying that he used handloads because the commercial stuff seemed to be too evil.

rat

We all just need to work harder in our states to be like Texas! Good shoot, no civil trial. Plain and simple.

Skip
Got that right!!!!

Some thoughts on the dead horse:

I was a coroner for 13 years and involved in dozens, if not a hundred or more deaths by gunshot (more self-inflicted than homicides), and never once do I recall the ammunition being used being tracked down as to whether it was reloaded or not, by our office or a police agency. We noted the headstamp on the cases, which chambers were loaded (on revolvers), identified calibers, and very infrequently (usually when I was in a conversation with our forensic pathologist [who is a gun guy] over which bullet weight it might be for said caliber, etc.) bullet weight or design.

In terms of an investigatory tool that would attract any attention, the value of knowing whether the ammo was reloaded or not is worthless, and therefore not noted. If the criminal investigation and prosecution is over, it'd have to be a quick civil atty to request the ammo be saved for possible use in making the argument being discussed. Overall, I guess it's possible, but it's darn unlikely!

Right on, Brother!

Prior to the lightweight JHP super velocity wonder loads I carried LSWC ammo in my service weapons and LWC in my BU/Off Duty weapons.
Negative complaints.

Game.

Set.

Match.

Nothing wrong with a good lswc load in 38 special or 44 spec.,45colt. Been putting bad guys away for over 100years. Works today as anyday,modern as tomorrow.

It seems to me that a sharp defense attorney could take a cast bullet at moderate velocity and use it to your advantage...

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client wasn't using super high velocity hollow points that everyone knows will kill a man just for looking at them sideways... he was using a reduced velocity, solid lead bullet. Basically a target load... If he was a psycho killer, don't you think he would have used a high velocity hollow point?"

You know, actually use the public's wrong perceptions to your benefit.

__________________
Proud anachronism

I suppose it would be easier to prove the perp hadn't been picked up and deposited 3ft to the rear of where he was shot with said target load!


hahaha

Thanks rat, this is a good example of why not to take legal advice from a gun writer. A civil trial lawyer is going to make you out to be Jack the Ripper regardless of what ammo you use, that is his job. I don't believe JTR made his own weapon either.

I think this is the last horse beating, if so it should have links to some earlier ones.
reloads and the law