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  #1  
Old 12-29-2011, 10:51 PM
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Default Cast bullets for personal defense?

I know the hollowpoint is supposedly king for personal defense, but why not cast bullets too? I don't mean the old lead round nose jobs like the .38 Special's 158 grainer that the factory used to load, but how about some decent bullets like the #358156? The #358429? What about the #429421 in hollowpoint or cast in a .44 Special? What about the #452424 in .45 Colt? I would think all of these cast not too hard would be ideal for personal defense and would cost alot less than jacketed hollow points.
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:00 PM
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Go read Jim Cirillo's books. He advocated full WC and SWC for many such uses. I would certainly be comfortable with such.
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Old 12-30-2011, 12:05 AM
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I cast bullets. I have hollow point versions of a bunch of them. Guess what, if I cast it, I load it in my personal defense loads too.

In the 45ACP, here is what I use:


What do you think about that?

This is a solid clone of an RCBS 45-270SAA and throws a 280gr bullet. It is designed for the 45 Colt and though this picture is of a solid, there are hollow point pins available for this mould. I usually don't carry a 45 Colt for self defense, unless it is while I am hunting with a rifle. Here:

Those puppies loaded to 1000fps or more SURELY they would work for self defense. Even against bears!

Just sayin'
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:33 AM
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I have that same mold, I didn't order it with the pins as I prefer Solids. The 270-SAA is my favorite bullet. If I could only have one, it would be the 270-SAA. Loaded over 9 or 10 grains of Unique, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on anything 2 or 4 legged outside of African big game.


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Old 12-30-2011, 07:42 AM
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Default bullets

i have been carrying my cast lead semi-wadcutters in 38-357 and 44 mag, 44 special, 45 colt, 45 auto rim, and 41 mag for years.
also after working homicides for 20 years it is my opinion that hollow points don't work most of the time, a semi-wadcuttter works the same every time.
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:44 AM
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I'm thinking these in some downloaded .44 magnum or specials would ruin a BG's day...





I don't have any loaded right now, but they were great in the 29-5...
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:47 AM
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I agree completely with ronnie gore. Solids offer better and more reliable performance. From what I have seen on the street, the performance of the so-called modern hi-tech hollowpoints leaves much to be desired. I will add that this is mostly due to political considerations. Much of our modern ammo lacks velocity because the manufacturers are terrified of loading ammo that is actually capable of shooting through a human.

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Old 12-30-2011, 10:05 AM
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Heads up here. I would use nothing but a commercial self defense load. If you ever have to use your weapon, the prosecuting attorney will make self loaded rounds a huge issue.And there is huge chance you will wind up in some legal battle, criminal or civil. You all may think (including me) that we can produce the best rounds for our needs but remember, the shooting is only the first battle. The second round is fought in the courts. This was stressed at our CCW class. Just for your consideration. Thanks for the look.
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Old 12-30-2011, 10:28 AM
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I've discussed my use of my personal (cast bullet) handloads for defensive carry here many times, as well as my take as a lawyer on the legal issues that could accrue. Nutshell: I'm not concerned but I'm comfy in a courtroom; I gave my brother the same advice Mas gives and told him to carry factory loads.

All that aside, cast bullets are great for a lot of defensive purposes.

These bullets were a gift from our Mr. "Sacket"


And some from NKJ Nut's Tennessee Valley Bullets:
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Old 12-30-2011, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Sackett View Post
I cast bullets. I have hollow point versions of a bunch of them. Guess what, if I cast it, I load it in my personal defense loads too.

In the 45ACP, here is what I use:


What do you think about that?

This is a solid clone of an RCBS 45-270SAA and throws a 280gr bullet. It is designed for the 45 Colt and though this picture is of a solid, there are hollow point pins available for this mould. I usually don't carry a 45 Colt for self defense, unless it is while I am hunting with a rifle. Here:

Those puppies loaded to 1000fps or more SURELY they would work for self defense. Even against bears!

Just sayin'
Skip
Those 45's look just like Win silver tips!!!
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Old 12-30-2011, 11:44 AM
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RN designs rank dead last for effective administration of heavy metal supplements.
you want a cast flat or hollow point.
about the only time I'd use a RN is if my SD gun was a picky eater and wont feed anything else .. but then, I'd get a different gun.
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Old 12-30-2011, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
I've discussed my use of my personal (cast bullet) handloads for defensive carry here many times, as well as my take as a lawyer on the legal issues that could accrue. Nutshell: I'm not concerned but I'm comfy in a courtroom; I gave my brother the same advice Mas gives and told him to carry factory loads.

All that aside, cast bullets are great for a lot of defensive purposes.

These bullets were a gift from our Mr. "Sacket"


And some from NKJ Nut's Tennessee Valley Bullets:


Ewwww, they are so BIG!!!
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Old 12-30-2011, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete950 View Post
Skip
Those 45's look just like Win silver tips!!!
Thanks, Pete!

They shoot like a house afire! They even chamber and shoot to MOBG (minute of bad guy) @ 50 yards from my Thompson 1927-T1! Not only that, they look cooler than all get out at the range when you shoot it out of it too! Or maybe its me that looks cool shooting it! WHATEVER! haha
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Old 12-30-2011, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post

These bullets were a gift from our Mr. "Sacket"

I like those bullets too Erich! In fact, my daughter has a M637 with them in it right now, as we speak!
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Old 12-30-2011, 01:31 PM
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I would never load my own ammo for SD, except under a SHTF scenario or if I lived in a non HP state like NJ. If I did load my own, these would certainly do the job as well as any high tech JHP. FOr NJ, a soft lead FP w/ a large meplate would be a pretty good fight stopper, especially somethin like the 200grLFP from Lee.

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Old 12-30-2011, 02:53 PM
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Im rather torn on the issue of SD handloads versus factory.
back in the DC sniper thing, the Media did have a little with pointing out lethal combinations used to create the ammo used .... dont know if that ever made it into the court proceedings or not, but it is food for thought as it was given a good dishonest try.
then I look at what comes out of a factory box versus what comes off my press ... yeah the numbers differ a little ... mine are a little more potent, at least as reliable and all go into a smaller circle down range. which is enough to really torment me as I'd much rather carry this than factory.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David LaPell View Post
I know the hollowpoint is supposedly king for personal defense, but why not cast bullets too? I don't mean the old lead round nose jobs like the .38 Special's 158 grainer that the factory used to load...
You could ask Lee Harvey Oswald about the old 158gr LRN. Except he never regained consciousness.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:30 PM
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I'm glad I'm not the only one with frosty bullets. lol They look great to me. I have a Lyman 425374 four cavity mould I'm thinking of having hollow pointed. I think any bullet with a large meplat doesn't need it.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:41 PM
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With projectiles in the 40 caliber range and the overall scheme of things does it really matter if it's lead, flat, hollow, fmj?? a 45 is a big hole either way. So to me a LSWC would work just fine.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:59 PM
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Don't know how many self-defense shootings you guys get into on a regular basis , but 1 box of top shelf factory hollow points should last the average person a lifetime.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmitch View Post
Heads up here. I would use nothing but a commercial self defense load. If you ever have to use your weapon, the prosecuting attorney will make self loaded rounds a huge issue.And there is huge chance you will wind up in some legal battle, criminal or civil. You all may think (including me) that we can produce the best rounds for our needs but remember, the shooting is only the first battle. The second round is fought in the courts. This was stressed at our CCW class. Just for your consideration. Thanks for the look.
any hard data to back that up? I could understand if you were doing something off the wall like cyanide tipped handloads or something like that but a conventional bullet handloaded would most likely never even be noticed as a handload instead of a factory load. I carry handloads in my carry guns and never think twice about it.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
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Don't know how many self-defense shootings you guys get into on a regular basis , but 1 box of top shelf factory hollow points should last the average person a lifetime.
top shelf of floor sweepings matters little.
if for any reason they fail to feed or fail to go where intended any SD shoot one my be involved in will guarantee the box of factory will last a lifetime

at present I carry factory ... but I cannot seem to set aside the performance of my handloads being a good bit better.
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmitch View Post
Heads up here. I would use nothing but a commercial self defense load. If you ever have to use your weapon, the prosecuting attorney will make self loaded rounds a huge issue.And there is huge chance you will wind up in some legal battle, criminal or civil. You all may think (including me) that we can produce the best rounds for our needs but remember, the shooting is only the first battle. The second round is fought in the courts. This was stressed at our CCW class. Just for your consideration. Thanks for the look.
I agree with you 100%, but I don't trust factory ammo when my life is at stake. I've had rounds not go bang before. Dud primers I guess. BTW that's one of the reasons I like a revolver for SD, if a round doesn't ignite I can pull the trigger and have a fresh round under the hammer.

I guess I *could* buy some factory ammo, pull it down and change the primers out, but then it's a handload.

The small boutique ammo companies only sell max loads for my SD caliber, .41 Magnum. For instance Buffalo Bore has a 265 gr. cast at 1350 fps, a Keith 230 gr. at 1450 fps, and a 170 gr. hollowpoint at 1650 fps. Too much steam for me.

If they made a 210 cast at 950, like the old police load, I'd buy it.
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:08 PM
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Hey Greg,

Don't know if you've got a .41 "Special" loading that you like for your purposes, but I found that 7.5 gr 7625, Remington cases, CCI large standard primer, 215-gr TVB LSWC hardcasts, moderate roll crimp would throw bullets at just over 1k fps (like a laser, of course) from a the 4" barrel, with deviations less than 15 fps. Very pleasant round, and what I kept in the gun for "social purposes."
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Old 12-30-2011, 08:12 PM
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Thanks Erich. How is the muzzle flash with that load?

Right now I have some 210 XTP's loaded with AA9. Accurate load, and low flash. The load I'm using is a 2-3 grs. down from max (depending on the book you look at).
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Old 12-30-2011, 10:38 PM
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The group buy mold form NOE that me and acl864 went in together on went into the mail today. You can bet this bullet will be in the chamber of my 357's. It has two crimp grooves one for 38 and one for 357 loads.

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Old 12-31-2011, 12:16 AM
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I got into a little discussion with Massad Ayood once upon a time (2008) and clearly demonstrated the low GSR argument isn't valid, which was a primary point in the one case where a handload was even a factor. Here's the only remaining picture from that episode.



A super light load of Bullseye ( the perp claimed it was a light target load) shot at 3 feet left GSR on the white paper. The victim didn't have any GSR, even though she supposedly shot herself.

Note: it was a super light target load, not some monster super lethal load.

The whole thing is just like Don Quixote jousting with windmills! There never has been a case where the lethality of a handload was a factor in the case proceedings.

It's the same as the bogus "unique" lead composition identifying a given box of factory ammunition, i.e. bad science on both accounts.

BTW, I tend to prefer buckshot at home, but everything else is handloads.

Last edited by Paul5388; 12-31-2011 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 12:25 AM
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He has made millions off of spouting that case as THE definitive answer to this thread hijack.

The truth be known, a murderer got manslaughter for his crimes. Now, he hunts with a bow or smoke pole.

And we keep giving up freedoms with no rule of law, just scare tactics from the enemy! Stupid.
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:43 AM
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I know a lot of folks are very proud of their handloads, but in my 30 years of shooting experience I have witnessed multiple times more failures with handloads compared to factory loaded ammo.

Also, what does "GSR" mean, anywhose?
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
You could ask Lee Harvey Oswald about the old 158gr LRN. Except he never regained consciousness.
Oswald was not only unarmed, but also restrained by the police. He could not return fire, slash with a knife, etc. He died alright, but not for some time after being shot.

158 gr LRN can stop an opponent. Eventually.
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:51 AM
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Gun Shot Residue.

And, you need to change who you either hang with at the range or get a different system for those cartridges you load for yourself.

No, no one will but more care and love into making my defensive handloads than I will. Range fodder is a whole nuther issue. Apples and oranges, friend, apples and oranges.
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:52 AM
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Warren;
You need to watch more TV(LOL)...

GSR means "Gun Shot Residue"...

Dale53
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Sear View Post
Oswald was not only unarmed, but also restrained by the police. He could not return fire, slash with a knife, etc. He died alright, but not for some time after being shot.

158 gr LRN can stop an opponent. Eventually.
As will a .45 in many (documented) cases.
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziptar View Post
I have that same mold, I didn't order it with the pins as I prefer Solids. The 270-SAA is my favorite bullet. If I could only have one, it would be the 270-SAA. Loaded over 9 or 10 grains of Unique, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on anything 2 or 4 legged outside of African big game.

Hey Zip: What brand of mold is that ?
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:16 AM
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Lightbulb Not zip but.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick B View Post
Hey Zip: What brand of mold is that ?
Since he said we both have the same mould, while I am not him , I can tell you the manufacturer.

It is Miha Privec. He has a website: mp-molds.com.

These are purchased through a group buy on the Castboolits forum. There are a lot of different ones available too.
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Old 12-31-2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Sackett View Post
Since he said we both have the same mould, while I am not him , I can tell you the manufacturer.

It is Miha Privec. He has a website: mp-molds.com.

These are purchased through a group buy on the Castboolits forum. There are a lot of different ones available too.
Skip is correct.

It was a group buy mold over on the cast boolits forum from Miha of MP molds.

The group buy is over but, someone may restart another run of them eventually.

Just for comparisons sake, here they are with the Lee 452-255-RF.


Last edited by Ziptar; 12-31-2011 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
You could ask Lee Harvey Oswald about the old 158gr LRN. Except he never regained consciousness.
Or you could ask the widows of the many cops killed in the 60s shooting bad guys 4&5 times w/ the old 158grLRN, then being killed by theBG before they eithe died themeselves or made to to the ER. A LRN would be my second to last choice, FMJ being my last choice.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Sackett View Post
Since he said we both have the same mould, while I am not him , I can tell you the manufacturer.

It is Miha Privec. He has a website: mp-molds.com.

These are purchased through a group buy on the Castboolits forum. There are a lot of different ones available too.
The original mold is a 2cav by RCBS. A great design, actually cast about 280gr as a solid from ww alloy. I have mine HP as well, makes 250gr-275gr LSWCHP, depending on the pin installed.
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
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Or you could ask the widows of the many cops killed in the 60s shooting bad guys 4&5 times w/ the old 158grLRN, then being killed by theBG before they eithe died themeselves or made to to the ER. A LRN would be my second to last choice, FMJ being my last choice.
LRN or FMJ wouldn't be my first or second choice, either, but they've each killed many people and I wouldn't want to be shot with one.

As to your 60s cops example, I doubt very many of those bad guys had "4&5" solid mass hits. We can also find examples of 45 JHPs not killing quickly.

All I'm saying is that I don't buy the internet legend of the .38 LRN not being a deadly round any more than I do the same thoughts about the 9mm.

And for the record, I usually carry hollow points.
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:06 PM
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Amen, gwalchmai. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. I've worked on cases where super-duper hollow points failed to stop people when they didn't hit in the right place, and I've worked on many DRT cases where FMJ bullets hit the X. There's no magic bullet. One thing hollow points can do is minimize penetration by applying the brakes - which is a great thing with a 9x19 or a .45 on a human assailant - and may be a terrible thing with a .380. Pick your poison and take your chances according to your assessment of your situation, but when folks start blanket-dismissing others' choices for the others' own situations (particularly when they do so by merely echoing things that they've read and parroted without experience in the field), they demonstrate themselves to be uninformed.

Last edited by Erich; 12-31-2011 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
The original mold is a 2cav by RCBS. A great design, actually cast about 280gr as a solid from ww alloy. I have mine HP as well, makes 250gr-275gr LSWCHP, depending on the pin installed.
Mine is a two cavity, I think Miha is making them in 4 cavity now. One thing though, I doubt your original is brass.

Ours, Zip's and mine, are. They are a work of art. If you use enough tin to get those super sharp corners to fill out, the bullets are a real beautiful thing. But the mould, man, like I said, works of art.



Shot placement is only accomplished by practice. Not merely target practice but scenario practice. Moving, shooting, cover, support, standing, sitting, kneeling and so on.

The only reason you would ever shoot someone once is because of poor training. 2 to the thorasic, one to the head, assess. Pretty simple and for me, that counts to 3.
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Old 12-31-2011, 10:45 PM
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Default Lawyers and bullets...

I actually had to stop and think of what I have in the primary defensive and carry guns; it's all factory. As to what a lawyer might do, well, there are some things a lab rat just won't do! I had to sue my own insurance company several years ago. A guy ran a stop sign and t-boned me right in front of a police officer. Open and shut? Not even close. Try almost 7 years of litigation, during which the doctor and detective my insurance company hired lied about me, and were exposed in court.

As far as bullets go, I have frangeble HP's in one gun, and JHP +P's in two others. The first is a 44spl. Any lawyer, especially in a civil suit, where all that is required is the preponderance of the evidence to find against you, could have a field day with the above. "Sir, why were you carrying high velocity hollow point ammunition in your gun, surely not for target practice?" etc etc. With the hope I will never have to, I could make the case that the LSWC's I had in my gun were indeed, target loads. It is interesting, because only recently I was thinking that my loading skills had come along to the point that I might start carrying roll your (my) owns. For me, it's all in the Lords hands. I prevailed in the litigation above, and when you considder that they lied about me, trailed me for months, put me on trial for being a Viet Nam Vet, riding a motorcycle, being a Christian, etc, etc, I'll just keep trusting Him, they're gonna' do what they do. Flapjack.
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:45 AM
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Super lethal rounds may not be that at all, especially if they are factory loads.
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Cleveland Williams, who came into the ring weighing 212 pounds, a fraction of that weight a .357 magnum slug still lodged in his body, courtesy of a Texas state trooper who, two years before, had taken umbrage at something the Cat had said and now sat in the audience to root for the man who carried the souvenir of his handiwork.
Surely you remember Cassius Clay vs Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams in 1966?

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Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result.
Come to think of it, they may have not even had jacketed .357 factory loads in 1964.

Last edited by Paul5388; 01-01-2012 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Amen, gwalchmai. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. I've worked on cases where super-duper hollow points failed to stop people when they didn't hit in the right place, and I've worked on many DRT cases where FMJ bullets hit the X. There's no magic bullet.
Erich, just where are these "X"s?
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ziptar View Post
Skip is correct.

It was a group buy mold over on the cast boolits forum from Miha of MP molds.

The group buy is over but, someone may restart another run of them eventually.

Just for comparisons sake, here they are with the Lee 452-255-RF.

I'd love one of those in 4 cav casting the RCBS .44 cal 250K . It's a great design but the 2 cav RCBS I have is slow casting .
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Skip Sackett View Post
I cast bullets. I have hollow point versions of a bunch of them. Guess what, if I cast it, I load it in my personal defense loads too.

In the 45ACP, here is what I use:


What do you think about that?

This is a solid clone of an RCBS 45-270SAA and throws a 280gr bullet. It is designed for the 45 Colt and though this picture is of a solid, there are hollow point pins available for this mould. I usually don't carry a 45 Colt for self defense, unless it is while I am hunting with a rifle. Here:

Those puppies loaded to 1000fps or more SURELY they would work for self defense. Even against bears!

Just sayin'
Did you bottom pour those or did you use a ladle ?
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:35 PM
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I think cast bullets are fine in many personal defense situations. I will sometimes carry a 629 Mountain revolver, and I load it with one of the “softer” cast 240 gr. SWC BB bullets that are on the market. I load them to about 1000 FPS.

A while back I came across an interesting old article about the .41 Magnum. The old .41 Magnum Police Load was a mid-range load with a 210 SWC, and it is reported to have had very good results in personal defense situations. If you research some of the one shot stop data, this load is in the 75% or better range; not too bad for a “low-tech” round. I think any .40 or bigger caliber, of at least 200 grains cast with a fairly wide meplat (most SWC designs), and greater than 950 fps will do an adequate personal defense job.

Regards

Last edited by John P.; 01-01-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Erich, just where are these "X"s?
Jellybean, in every handgun shooting I've worked on in which a bullet clipped the aorta, heart, brain, or spine (in descending order of frequency of hits in the more-than-200 handgun killings I've done some type of work on), the shootee immediately ceased aggressive action.

That might not always be the case and every shooting is different, but it happens so frequently that I tell my friends to study human anatomy and target the heart/aorta or brain (as opposed to the more nebulous "center of mass" or "thoracic triangle" or whatnot) in the event of need, and to practice in such a way as to be able to hit targets of the right size at defensive differences.

Here's a link to Gray's Anatomy online:

Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body

cheers, erich
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Old 01-01-2012, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug M. View Post
Go read Jim Cirillo's books. He advocated full WC and SWC for many such uses. I would certainly be comfortable with such.

So would I as long as it's a large caliber soft lead bullet with a flat nose.
Even if a .452" flat point lead slug doesn't expand, and I doubt it would at handgun velocity, it still cuts a 1/2" diameter hole in whatever it passes through including a bad guy's internal organs. I keep my .45acp bedside gun loaded with Speer hollowpoint ammo, but I wouldn't feel helpless before my enemy with a good lead semiwadcutter in the pipe.
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Old 01-01-2012, 02:23 PM
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FORT WORTH (AP) A Tarrant County sheriff’s deputy working off-duty as a security officer shot a bank robbery suspect following a chase and confrontation. Authorities say the deputy pursued the man, who left the Fort Worth Community Credit Union about 9:30 a.m. Saturday with an undetermined amount of money. The deputy confronted him in a parking lot. Investigators say the suspect slashed the deputy in the neck as the deputy simultaneously shot the man in the head. The 58-year-old Deputy Fredrick Bauer was treated and released in good condition from a hospital. The man suspected of robbing the bank was in critical condition at another hospital. Another robbery suspect escaped, and the deputy fired a weapon at that suspect’s car, breaking out windows.
It's kinda like the Giffords case where head shots aren't necessarily lethal if wonder 9s and other similar weenie guns are employed.
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