Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Reloading
o

Notices

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-09-2012, 09:03 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 35
Liked 84 Times in 16 Posts
Default .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?

I frequently see posts recommending this load for defense. It looked like a great idea to me back in the 70's and I loaded a bunch of 148gr Speer HBWC backwards over 3 gr of Bullseye. I was a bit surprised and disheartened to note at the range that most of them went through the target sideways at 5 yards from my Chief's special. Has anyone come up with a bullet/powder/gun combination that will stabilize these loads or do people keep recommending them because they look scary?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-09-2012, 09:19 PM
arfmel arfmel is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 253
Likes: 27
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Default

My experience was the same as yours. I never did get my handloads to not tumble. I was using them in a Victory Model. It has been a long time ago, and I don't have any record of what charge I used and what brand bullet. The powder was most likely "Unique", though, because that's what I used at that time. Sorry I'm not more help.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-09-2012, 10:28 PM
tomuchiron tomuchiron is offline
US Veteran
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lakeland Florida
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default that'll work.

I thought they were supposed to tumble. More damage.
I would think the broad side would disperse more energy faster, besides making a bigger hole. It Should be a lot more effective.
They used to say the 223 tumbled, for more damage, but I never had a key hole with one of them.
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-09-2012, 11:22 PM
Black_Talon's Avatar
Black_Talon Black_Talon is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: SoCal - SGV
Posts: 470
Likes: 280
Liked 130 Times in 49 Posts
Default

I also tried this experiment back in the '70's, with many different S&W's. Got nothing but tumbling from every gun, no matter what sort of different loads I tried.

And as far as the "aren't they supposed to tumble" philosophy, I say "first they have to hit the target", something which is by no means a sure thing, even at fairly short ranges with a backwards HBWC. 10" plus groups were the norm, even at 5 or so yards during my experiments.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-09-2012, 11:23 PM
m657's Avatar
m657 m657 is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sunny Orygun
Posts: 2,910
Likes: 392
Liked 307 Times in 195 Posts
Default

Not to high hack here, but there are a couple of issues regarding "keyholing" I would comment upon without claiming any particular degree of correctness in my hypothesis:

1) key holing at 5 yards in a defense snubbie may be advantageous in a 'belly gun'...

2) a few years ago I spent considerable time & effort trying to develop a satisfactory load for a Marlin 45-70. Despite meticulous research and application of proper recipes and assembly protocols, 50 yard accuracy was miserable with cast boolits regardless of a variety of powders, charges and 350-375-405-450 grain cast lead. On the other hand, it was sheer music the sound a 405 grain slug could generate smiting a 1/2" plywood backer and leave a perfectly outlined profile of the slug.

Never resolved that issue, but turning to factory jacketed ammo yield 2" groups at the same range. Buddies tried to convince that not enough velocity to stabilize was somehow responsible, but all of the loads were within published specs.

Not that this solves your question much.

In using 147g DEWC and 148 g WC in a variety of 38 loads & guns, I've never had any do what you describe, regardless of which end was mounted forward....but none of them were HBWC either. If we read up a little more on what Skeeter had to say in more depth, perhaps he discussed this issue.
__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas

Last edited by m657; 01-09-2012 at 11:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-10-2012, 12:03 AM
hawgleg's Avatar
hawgleg hawgleg is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: arkansas
Posts: 236
Likes: 4
Liked 15 Times in 11 Posts
Default

I think most people just go back to the drawingboard and try something else.

Last edited by hawgleg; 01-10-2012 at 12:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-10-2012, 12:55 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

I made some up back in the late 70s to hunt jackrabbits with. At 900fps, they stabilize fine, accurate to 25yds or so, devistating on vermin. I would think they would have been very shallow penetrators for a SD round.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-10-2012, 12:51 PM
ArchAngelCD's Avatar
ArchAngelCD ArchAngelCD is offline
Moderator
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northeast PA, USA
Posts: 8,877
Likes: 1,029
Liked 5,070 Times in 2,660 Posts
Default

I wouldn't do it although I do like DEWC bullets at a fairly quick velocity for SD. A 148gr DEWC over 4.0gr W231 will do a good job and you don't have to be too concerned about expansion considering the bullet is already at full caliber diameter.
__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-10-2012, 04:24 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 35
Liked 84 Times in 16 Posts
Default

Thanks for the replies. I'll be referring "load em backwards" fans to this thread.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-10-2012, 05:25 PM
pistola's Avatar
pistola pistola is offline
US Veteran
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 73
Likes: 252
Liked 13 Times in 6 Posts
Wink Recovered bullet,148 gr. HBWC


Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-10-2012, 07:21 PM
pete950's Avatar
pete950 pete950 is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,244
Likes: 1,649
Liked 424 Times in 196 Posts
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by pistola View Post

What was it shot into!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-10-2012, 08:33 PM
Tyrod Tyrod is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sunny Central Florida
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 334
Liked 993 Times in 378 Posts
Default

Quote:
They used to say the 223 tumbled
No, they actually didn't tumble in flight. On early AR-15 and M-16 the rifling twist rate was so slow that the bullet was only marginably stable. As a consequence, as soon as the bullet struck an obstacle (such as clothing), then the bullet stability would become disrupted and key holeing would likely occur. With a 1:14 twist the bullet could actually become unstable in flight in very cold climates.

The effect would be the same but the bullet would, at least, fly straight.
__________________
NRA Benefactor
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-10-2012, 09:20 PM
358156hp 358156hp is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 728
Likes: 97
Liked 224 Times in 149 Posts
Default

I haven't loaded wadcutters backwards for many years, but mine didn't tumble in either 38 Spl or 32 S&W long. I used Bullseye, and didn't try to make them go really fast because I was told that they would try to swap ends if you pushed them too fast.

Last edited by 358156hp; 01-10-2012 at 09:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-11-2012, 07:19 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 35
Liked 84 Times in 16 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pistola View Post

What powder charge were you using? What bullet? Did you use a gas check over the hollow base? Did they consistently stabilize? Very impressive results if consistent.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-11-2012, 07:51 PM
silentflyer silentflyer is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Roanoke, Va
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 1,697
Liked 1,284 Times in 640 Posts
Default

I recall shooting some wetphone books with them, didn't penatrate all that far, but the wet book always took a tumble and the rounds opened up to about the size of a quarter...never shot anything else with them, but in close at night....well I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-11-2012, 08:25 PM
pistola's Avatar
pistola pistola is offline
US Veteran
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 73
Likes: 252
Liked 13 Times in 6 Posts
Post Backwards HBWC

Hornady 148 gr. HBWC,no gas check.Powder was Unique,3.5 gr.
The recovered bullet was fired at 10 yards into a 55 gal. burn barrel penetrating the near side and almost going through the far side,
some bullets breaking the metal but not exiting.A S&W Model 640
.38 Spl. 1 7/8" bbl. was the revolver used.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-12-2012, 01:54 AM
roundgunner's Avatar
roundgunner roundgunner is offline
US Veteran
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Rural, CT
Posts: 1,721
Likes: 578
Liked 1,390 Times in 324 Posts
Default

I played with them quite a bit in the 70s. Uncle Sams 45s were all over the place but my only personal handgun was a Model 10.

I kept the data and will look it up but I know I used a light charge of Bullseye and Reddot. If you pushed them to fast they would turn inside out and the bottom would push thru the top and seperate.

I shot them into water but I’m pretty sure shooting into water is about as close to flesh as you can get for free, and I was active duty poor.

My model 10 was 4” and tumbling was not a issue for that but I kept them below +P speeds.
__________________
Shoot fast & live long
Warren
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-12-2012, 02:03 AM
LouisianaJoe's Avatar
LouisianaJoe LouisianaJoe is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2,465
Likes: 1,124
Liked 3,064 Times in 838 Posts
Default

Years ago I loaded some in a .357 magnum rather hot.

I shot a possum in the butt with a 6" Model 19 and it blew the bottom half of its abdomen off. The amazing thing was that it still bared its teeth at me for a minute before it died.

I fired one of them into a clay bank and it expanded to about the size of a quarter.

I called it my atrocity load.
__________________
Corripe Cervisiam
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-14-2012, 05:31 AM
GyMac GyMac is offline
US Veteran
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SW Washington
Posts: 1,107
Likes: 616
Liked 288 Times in 168 Posts
Default

I had some old Speer HBWC's laying around from 20 some years ago. Last year I loaded a few up backward with a moderate load of Win 231 and fired them into some wet catalogs. They flattened out like a nickel. I tried a few at 15 yards and they seemed pretty decent, no tumbling at all. I was just giving them a try, I rely on the FBI load for SD.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-14-2012, 02:16 PM
MMA10mm MMA10mm is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Illinois
Posts: 513
Likes: 46
Liked 60 Times in 31 Posts
Default

I did this back in the day as well. I found that loading them so about 1/4" of the bullet protruded from the case helped center them in the chamber throat and they flew better. I also tried loading them hotter and got leading which then screwed up the accuracy. I finally decided to load an upside-down gas-check under the upside-down HBWC and that allowed me to go up to a little hotter load successfully. Finally had a chance to try the "perfected" UDHBWC and found that it over-expanded, kind-of like the skirt-blow-off issue in reverse. As the bullet expanded at the higher velocity the thin part of the skirt (now the mouth of the upside-down bullet) would peel off and shatter and not penetrate, leaving a 100gr or so short WC shaped fragment to do the rest. Overall penetration was better than Glaser Safety Slugs, but a lot worse than a soft-cast HP, which is what I prefer now.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-14-2012, 08:46 PM
Beans Beans is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Southern Az Territory, Border County
Posts: 494
Likes: 16
Liked 50 Times in 21 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I made some up back in the late 70s to hunt jackrabbits with. At 900fps, they stabilize fine, accurate to 25yds or so, devistating on vermin. I would think they would have been very shallow penetrators for a SD round.
In the mid to late 70's I loaded mine to around 825-850 FPS and shot them in a 3 inch HB model 36. No tumbling, great expanison. They were carried in the my S&W HB model 36 as a BUG for my issued model 15, for Summer carry. Winter carry my BUG was a Satin Chrome Colt Combat commander in .45 ACP

No one cared if we used handloads on duty back then.
__________________
Semper FI
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #22  
Old 01-14-2012, 09:16 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 35
Liked 84 Times in 16 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pistola View Post
Hornady 148 gr. HBWC,no gas check.Powder was Unique,3.5 gr.
The recovered bullet was fired at 10 yards into a 55 gal. burn barrel penetrating the near side and almost going through the far side,
some bullets breaking the metal but not exiting.A S&W Model 640
.38 Spl. 1 7/8" bbl. was the revolver used.
The Hornadys might be more stable than the Speers....don't think the hollow point i as large so more mass up front when reversed. I'm estimating your velocity would have been down around 700 fps. I get 815 with a 158 gr and 4.7 gr Unique out of a 642.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-14-2012, 09:17 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 35
Liked 84 Times in 16 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beans View Post
In the mid to late 70's I loaded mine to around 825-850 FPS and shot them in a 3 inch HB model 36. No tumbling, great expanison. They were carried in the my S&W HB model 36 as a BUG for my issued model 15, for Summer carry. Winter carry my BUG was a Satin Chrome Colt Combat commander in .45 ACP

No one cared if we used handloads on duty back then.
Were you using the Speer HBWC or other?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-14-2012, 09:52 PM
Smithhound's Avatar
Smithhound Smithhound is offline
US Veteran
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SE Tennessee
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 0
Liked 308 Times in 108 Posts
Default

Back in the early '80's I tried this as well, at 25' they worked fine but I never tried them any further away as i figured they were defense loads. This is before I read and understood the legal ramifications of using non-factory loads for this.
I was carrying a 2" barrel M10-5 while poking around in the woods at my Dad's place and happened to have this load in it, I came around a clump of brush and met a skunk head on at about 15', I got off one shot (just before running) and hit him square in the brisket, that thing looked as if someone had inflated him with about 75psi of air, he just ballooned up, didn't blow up just looked like he inflated. It never moved a step, just 'poof', inflated and fell over. Other than the normal stink they carry around he didn't even spray. I thought (for about a second) of digging the bullet out but decided not to, kind of like working on a time bomb.
I've never messed with them since tho'.
RD
__________________
Got a Phd from Hard Knocks U
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-14-2012, 10:19 PM
Wrightturn Wrightturn is offline
Member
.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize? .38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default HBWC

I used the Speer HBWC in 60`s to duplicate factory mid range match. I met a cop with A Bodyguard loaded with reverse wadcutter so I decided to try it. Not much to recommend.

Years later one of my match guns was an M27. Loaded the the HBWC in 357 brass with 3.0 gr Bullseye. The indoor range where I did most of my shooting was 20 meters and groups were under 1 inch using all 6 chambers.

Got invited to junk yard shoot and took the M27 with my light target loads. On car doors they created a small dent and fell to the ground. Shot an old Pontiac in the hood. Bullet went through the hood, fire wall, and took the lock off the glove box. The next 40 rounds failed to penetrate any sheet metal. Never did figure that out.

Earl
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
223, 357 magnum, 642, bodyguard, bullseye, colt, commander, hornady, lock, m27, model 10, model 15, model 16, model 19, model 27, skeeter, victory, wadcutter

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
629 for HD - 44Mag loaded down or 44spc loaded up? 44Fundi Ammo 11 06-04-2015 09:56 AM
I think lack of ammo is causing firearms prices to stabilize walnutred The Lounge 9 01-31-2013 12:14 AM
I'm Going Backwards Dump1567 The Lounge 16 12-09-2012 02:55 PM
Am I doing this backwards? Mike McLellan S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 14 11-07-2012 01:43 AM
M-29 cyl. going backwards fm. recoil?? grayingghost S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 27 06-06-2012 10:39 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:07 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)