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  #1  
Old 01-04-2012, 01:17 PM
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Default Unique and 44 Mag 240 grain hard cast discrepancy**Update with some Chrono results**

Alliants data states 7 grs Unique which they list as max for 899 fps.

Lymans cast manual 4th edition lists a start of 10.0 to a max of 11.7.

Now I am used to variances in load data from different sources but this seems to be extreme??

I normally use 2400 but wanted to try a milder load. They are almost the same data for the 250 grain Keith with 2400.??

So, I be a bit confused here.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:30 PM
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Ive seen this more prominent in 45 acp where it seems fewer data sources are taking lead seriously.
in this case we have Alliant saying how low you can go and Lyman saying how far you can push it.
use both .. Alliants start and Lymans redline and Ill bet you'll settle in on something in the 8 grain area.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:30 PM
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The Alliant site is very good, but they always use Speer bullets for their data. This means that the load they list is for the Speer 240 gr SWAGED LEAD bullet, not hard cast lead. I find 10 gr Unique with a Lazer Cast 240 SWC to be a very pleasant load.

Tom.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:32 PM
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I've been using anywhere from 6 1/2 to 10 grs. of unique with a 240 gr hard cast bblswc in a 44 magnum case with no problems.This is a bullet produced by chey- cast and these rounds have been used in a 629 classic and a Colt Anaconda.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humphreys220 View Post
The Alliant site is very good, but they always use Speer bullets for their data. This means that the load they list is for the Speer 240 gr SWAGED LEAD bullet, not hard cast lead. I find 10 gr Unique with a Lazer Cast 240 SWC to be a very pleasant load.

Tom.
Alliants free manual specifically says Cast. As does the online site for the 240 grain cast.

I was going to go with 10grs as well.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:38 PM
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Using Unique, you aren't going to get hurt at either end of the data you have. 7gr or 11.7gr.

I was honestly surprised at the last batch of Keith bullets that I shot with 11.5gr. I shot them from the Marlin too and they groups like CRAZY! I had problems with that rifle and lead for a long, long, time. The M629 Classic liked them too. Although, they were NOT a mild load.

Hope this helps!

p.s. What did you decide to load the Keith's I sent you with?
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Sackett View Post
Using Unique, you aren't going to get hurt at either end of the data you have. 7gr or 11.7gr.

I was honestly surprised at the last batch of Keith bullets that I shot with 11.5gr. I shot them from the Marlin too and they groups like CRAZY! I had problems with that rifle and lead for a long, long, time. The M629 Classic liked them too. Although, they were NOT a mild load.

Hope this helps!

p.s. What did you decide to load the Keith's I sent you with?

I also checked in the Speer manual and their data for CAST is within the Lyman range so I set up the powder measure for 10.5 grs.

Skip, to be honest I have not loaded any of those fine Boolits yet They are next up.Honest!

I have been shooting a lot of 40 SW, ringing out two guns. Time to get back to revolvers.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:17 PM
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No problemo, friend!

I just got an email confirmation that another shooter got some that I sent him. Seems he uses his 44mag levergun to hunt hogs in Oklahoma and has been pretty successful. I am wondering just how well the 434640HP version works on those critters.

I am super anxious to find out what you think of them too but, I have a little patience.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:33 PM
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10 grs. of Unique and a 240 gr. SWC Laser Cast is a good lite load. I got 1048 fps. out of a 7 1/2 in barrel. I have never checked it in a 4 or 6 1/2 in barrel. Larry
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Sackett View Post
No problemo, friend!

I just got an email confirmation that another shooter got some that I sent him. Seems he uses his 44mag levergun to hunt hogs in Oklahoma and has been pretty successful. I am wondering just how well the 434640HP version works on those critters.

I am super anxious to find out what you think of them too but, I have a little patience.
I have a 44 Mag and 357 Mag, Marlin Rifles, but you sent me 45 Colt and 357 Lead???

I am not factory trained in mold numeration
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Alliants data states 7 grs Unique which they list as max for 899 fps.

Lymans cast manual 4th edition lists a start of 10.0 to a max of 11.7.

Now I am used to variances in load data from different sources but this seems to be extreme??

I normally use 2400 but wanted to try a milder load. They are almost the same data for the 250 grain Keith with 2400.??

So, I be a bit confused here.
Sir, if you'd like to really confuse yourself, go back to Alliant's online guide and look at the page for .44 magnum with a cast 250-grain Keith bullet. The max listed for Unique there is 11.0 grains.

FWIW, my own experiments with .44 magnum, cast 250s, and Unique turned up accuracy "sweet spots" at 8.5 grains and 10.0 grains.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humphreys220 View Post
The Alliant site is very good, but they always use Speer bullets for their data. This means that the load they list is for the Speer 240 gr SWAGED LEAD bullet, not hard cast lead. I find 10 gr Unique with a Lazer Cast 240 SWC to be a very pleasant load.

Tom.
BINGO! Good call!

They set such a low max for that bullet because if you push a nearly-pure lead bullet over 850, you get leading. Simple.
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  #13  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:16 PM
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I load 300 gr cast with 10.0 gr Unique. It works fine. Lymans "Pistol & Handgun" manual shows 11.5 gr of Unique as being max for Cast bullets up to 275 gr. I've seen "official" data up to 11.5 gr for the 300 gr too, but I need to dig deeper for that particular manual.
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:36 PM
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I use 6 grains of Unique and a cast 240gr. SWC for low end target loads.
7.5 grains for a nice accurate mid-range load.
From there I move right up to 23 grains of W296 and a 240 XTP.
I have had good results with 11 grains of Universal and a 210
Sierra JHC. Sadly this bullet is no longer made and I am now
working up a similar load with the Hornady 200 XTP.
Unique and Universal (Clays) are practically interchangeable.
I am moving to the latter.
I am also trying to move both Special and Magnum loads to the lighter
bullets. With the aforementioned Unique loads I have found that
I can just change bullets and still get excellent results.

---
Nemo
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  #15  
Old 01-05-2012, 12:10 AM
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6.9 Grains of Unique is the "Factory Equivalant" for the ancient .44 Spl Round Nose Lead 246 Grain loading. It's very mild and accurate in both .44 Mag and Spl. cases.

7.5 Grains of Unique with a 240-250 Grain cast Keith SWC was Skeeter Skelton's go to load in his 4" Smith 1950's in .44 Special. I like it in a Magnum case as well.

I have a fixed sighted Model 58- .44 Magnum conversion and finding a load that would shoot to the sights was something of a challenge. I started at 8.6 grains and stepped down in .2 Grain increments. At 7.8 grains I found the right combination.



In this case I was using our fellow forum member Jessie Clark's Tennessee Valley Bullet Company's 243 Grain Cast Round Nose Flat Point.



This load has potential for a mid-range 'everyday' load.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:11 AM
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Rule3,

This is one time I will break my cardinal rule of reading every response post before making a comment.

Different compilers of reloading data have different criteria for determining what they will list as maximum date. Believe it or not, pressure often is not the limiting factor, particularly where Lead bullets are involved whether cast or swaged. It may be leading in their test series or simply an arbitrary "If they want more they can use jacketed bullets".

This is an excellent example of this. I rarely load .44 Magnum to anywhere near maximum performance loads simply because my arthritic and battered hands don't get along well with a lot of recoil. When I do it is with 2400, however Unique is much more often used, or something in the same burning rate range. What I can tell you is that 7.0 gr. Unique with any cast bullet does not even begin to approach maximum pressure levels. I routinely load 9.2 gr. with the 429421 and this isn't close to what is acceptable. Even in .44 Special with the same bullet I generally load 7.2 to 7.5 gr with the same bullet.

I don't think it would be a good idea to exceed the 11.0 gr. that has been mentioned, but in .44 Magnum it certainly is not an excessive load with a 240-250 gr. bullet.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMA10mm View Post
BINGO! Good call!

They set such a low max for that bullet because if you push a nearly-pure lead bullet over 850, you get leading. Simple.

Bingo what? You need to go back and read the data.

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

Pistols and Revolvers

44 Rem Magnum

  • 240 gr cast LSWC
Regardless both Lyman and Speer list data for hard cast as well as Speer lists also for their swagged bullet which is less.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:41 AM
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All data souces will vary, they all use diff components & most important, diff test platforms. You can't expect identical perf levels from a Universal receiver vs a revolver, 4" bbl vs 7 1/2" bbl, etc.
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:43 PM
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Just for a Update. Went to the range today.

Firearm 7.5" Ruger Super Red Hawk

Mixed Brass, Wolf primers, 240 gr hard cast LSWC

10.5 grs Unique

1210 fps avg
79 ES
24 SD

Easier to shoot and not bad out of the Ruger. 9.5 to 10 should be a pretty comfortable load and still be a "magnum"

Same everything but with 14.5 grs Blue Dot

1340 fps avg
57 ES
16 SD

Much hotter.

Did not Chrony the last batch of 200 gr LRN with 22 grs of 2400. They were a tad stout even out of the tank of a Ruger.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tops View Post
10 grs. of Unique and a 240 gr. SWC Laser Cast is a good lite load. I got 1048 fps. out of a 7 1/2 in barrel. I have never checked it in a 4 or 6 1/2 in barrel. Larry
Not Laser Cast but Regular ol cast 240 LRN the other day gave me 1070 fps out of a 4" 629-4 and 1160fps out of a 6 1/2" 629-4 Classic. Decent accuracy and a snappy recoil and no leading to speak of.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:13 AM
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Rule3,
Bingo THIS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by humphreys220 View Post
The Alliant site is very good, but they always use Speer bullets for their data. This means that the load they list is for the Speer 240 gr SWAGED LEAD bullet, not hard cast lead. I find 10 gr Unique with a Lazer Cast 240 SWC to be a very pleasant load.

Tom.
Tom identified the discrepency that you were asking about.

If you look at enough data long enough, these head-scratcher-questions start having answers that are apparent.

The Alliant website was cut-and-pasted from their older load data, generally. Somewhere in the cut-and-pasting, the editor or copier got sloppy (or didn't know the difference, because they're not a handloader/caster) and listed swaged bullet data as "cast" data.

If you go to that same Alliant webpage for the 240gr loads, and hit the back button, and go to the 250gr cast (Keith) loads, you'll see they list up to 11.0grs for the same powder. Now, that's a heavier bullet, with a heavier load - sounds dangerous don't it? Actually, it's not, and the 11.0grs load could be used with the soft swaged bullet safely (as far as pressure goes), but you'll lead the heck out of your barrel.

So, the technicians made those loads different, and I say it's because of what Tom noted. Unfortunately, someone not so smart put the data on the website and confused things. This is what happens when humans are involved - we're just not perfect, much as we try.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:58 AM
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This thread brings back memories of my one and only reloading misadventure. I had just purchased an unfired 5"629 Classic. Loaded up a moderate load of 10.5 Unique with a 240 grain hardcast SWC. Went to the range, lined up at 25 yards, squeezed off a shot. The round went dead center but the recoil seemed pretty stout, I finished off the cylinder thinking that I guess it had been awhile since I had shot any .44 mags. Went to eject the empties and they wouldn't budge, ended up pounding them out one at a time with my cleaning rod. Needless to say I didn't fire any more that afternoon. I went home and started pulling bullets and found that instead of 10.5 grains I had set my scale and loaded 15 Grains! I guess you can say that my 629 has been proof tested. The gun held up but the recoil sure was on the heavy side.......................
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMA10mm View Post
Rule3,
Bingo THIS:



Tom identified the discrepency that you were asking about.

If you look at enough data long enough, these head-scratcher-questions start having answers that are apparent.

The Alliant website was cut-and-pasted from their older load data, generally. Somewhere in the cut-and-pasting, the editor or copier got sloppy (or didn't know the difference, because they're not a handloader/caster) and listed swaged bullet data as "cast" data.

If you go to that same Alliant webpage for the 240gr loads, and hit the back button, and go to the 250gr cast (Keith) loads, you'll see they list up to 11.0grs for the same powder. Now, that's a heavier bullet, with a heavier load - sounds dangerous don't it? Actually, it's not, and the 11.0grs load could be used with the soft swaged bullet safely (as far as pressure goes), but you'll lead the heck out of your barrel.

So, the technicians made those loads different, and I say it's because of what Tom noted. Unfortunately, someone not so smart put the data on the website and confused things. This is what happens when humans are involved - we're just not perfect, much as we try.

So you are saying it is a typo or web site error. ?

I have the actual Alliant color "Manual" 2009 (not the on- line pdf version which might very well be the same) I see on page 68 the 240 and 250 gr Keith which you mention with the 240 still saying cast(7grs) as well as the 250 cast with 11 grains.

Their sister/brother company Speer (under ATK) manual #14 lists the 240 gr Part # 4660 with the same data.

So yes it is the swagged bullet and they need to correct their web site and manual to read as such.

However it still says cast which is why I went with Lyman Cast manual and Speer manual with the heavier 250 bullet data.

Edit: I sent them a e mail
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:47 PM
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BINGO!

Reply from Alliant!

That is correct. The 240 gr bullet is a Speer swaged. For the swaged bullet, the starting load should be approx 6.5 grs. For the 250 gr cast bullet, the starting load should be approx 9 grs. Thanks for your note and have a nice weekend.

Ben Amonette
Technical Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company



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Old 01-14-2012, 12:56 PM
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There you go!
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