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  #101  
Old 01-03-2014, 03:01 PM
daverich4 daverich4 is offline
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Originally Posted by silentflyer View Post
Ford vs. Chevy, blondes or redheads, .41 vs .44, ..this discussion could go on forever. Wider selection of lead for the .44, the 41 shoots flatter, other than that whatever you hit with either one won't know the difference.
Enough people have said in this discussion that the .41 shoots flatter and that the .44 doesn't really take over until you use heavier bullets that I dug out my Speer #14 to take a look. Using the short range tables in the back to compare maximum loads of the .41 210gr. GDHP with the .44 210gr. GDHP at 100 yards the tables say the .44 drops 1.9" less, is traveling 165 fps faster and has 178 more FP/E. None of that is going to make a difference to any animal you're shooting but it still is different information than what most people are posting here.
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  #102  
Old 01-03-2014, 03:42 PM
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While it isn't realistic to say that the .41 Magnum shoots flatter than the .44 Magnum, I'm just grateful to enjoy owning classic, traditional Smith & Wesson revolvers chambered for both.
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  #103  
Old 01-03-2014, 10:57 PM
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Default Think of how many....

Think how many 'good' rifle calibers never caught on.
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  #104  
Old 01-04-2014, 08:03 AM
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Having trained a lot of people to shoot over the past 40+ years, I've seen revolver wise that the .357 Magnum is the most powerful handgun most not so dedicated shooters can handle and feel comfortable with. Once that recoil line is crossed it becomes too unpleasant for them.

95% of LEOs are in that same category.

Bob
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  #105  
Old 01-04-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by daverich4 View Post
Enough people have said in this discussion that the .41 shoots flatter and that the .44 doesn't really take over until you use heavier bullets that I dug out my Speer #14 to take a look. Using the short range tables in the back to compare maximum loads of the .41 210gr. GDHP with the .44 210gr. GDHP at 100 yards the tables say the .44 drops 1.9" less, is traveling 165 fps faster and has 178 more FP/E. None of that is going to make a difference to any animal you're shooting but it still is different information than what most people are posting here.
The "shoots flatter" and "has less recoil" lines were made popular by magazine writers looking for something new to write about. They were comparing factory ammo in the calibers respective standard bullet weights. While it sounded convincing on paper, it means nothing in reality. The .44 will hold more powder and bullets of the same weight will be shorter, both of these add up to more cartridge space which will allow more powder. However, as has been mentioned, the difference in diameter is so small, it makes the other differences just as small too. It's about as small a difference as changing ballistic coefficients in the same cartridge.

The .41s drawback wasn't really timing. It's timing suited S&W perfectly, which was shortly after the .401 powermags introduction. S&W didn't intend for it to compete with the .44 mag., because they are essentially the same thing. The Herters load was gaining a following and that was money that S&W wanted, just like any other cartridge. But S&W doesn't like to use other peoples cartridges in their guns if they can help it. The Powermag was a good cartridge, ballistically about the same as a .40 S&W, and would have had some real potential if it was chambered in a good double action, medium framed revolver, such as a Colt. In fact, it would have been exactly what George Herter wanted to be, the perfect law enforcement and military cartridge. The idea had been around for a very long time, but none of the revolver makers ever made an honest attempt at it, until someone else did. So S&W wasted little time in coming up with their own version, and used their favorite salesmen to push the marketing, Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan. Unfortunately, their cartridge ended up in a large frame gun, which a lot of people couldn't handle and most cops didn't want to lug around all day. And since it was in a magnum sized gun, they made magnums for it to shoot, which they pushed as a "benefit" but was another reason most PDs rejected it.

Once the Powermag died, I don't think S&W cared if the .41 lived or not. I remember picking up a S&W catalog to see what new .41 mag models they had added and found they had dropped everything but one, a 6" 657. By that time the law enforcement market had turned to autos and the whole race for the best law enforcement and military cartridge started all over again.
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  #106  
Old 01-04-2014, 12:21 PM
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By the time the 41mag came along I had already committed to the 44mag. I had several guns, ammo, dies, components and lots of brass. So assuming the 41 is almost as good as the 44, why would I jump ship?
I also had several 44 Specials, that works out good having Specials and Magnums. Just like 38s and 357s. Got several of each of those too.
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  #107  
Old 01-04-2014, 12:31 PM
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To me, its simple, larger capacity+ larger diameter= higher velocities with less pressure (bullet weight remaining constant).....

(Modern .45 Colt wins)
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  #108  
Old 01-04-2014, 01:35 PM
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The .41 Magnum was designed for people like me who want an excuse to buy another (or several) gun(s).

Having said, and done that, I recently sold off my two M57s, and my M657-4 3 inch; keeping the M58 (forever).

It was time to thin things out and a .44 Magnum/.44 Special (N-Frame or Ruger) will do anything a .41 Magnum will.

Elmer was probably the first to say the .41 Magnum shot flatter, his explanation by way of shooting it at longish ranges and noting its impact versus the .44 Magnum. Not in any way technical or scientific.

Soon after, as is often the case, many gun-writers and shooters just simply repeated Elmer.

And...shovelwrench is on to something. A safely loaded .45 Colt (Long Colt to get someone's goat) utilizing a 250 grain bullet at 1000 to 1100 FPS will kill anything as well. Not considering a Ty Rex.
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  #109  
Old 01-04-2014, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post
The .41 Magnum was designed for people like me who want an excuse to buy another (or several) gun(s).

Having said, and done that, I recently sold off my two M57s, and my M657-4 3 inch; keeping the M58 (forever).

It was time to thin things out and a .44 Magnum/.44 Special (N-Frame or Ruger) will do anything a .41 Magnum will.

Elmer was probably the first to say the .41 Magnum shot flatter, his explanation by way of shooting it at longish ranges and noting its impact versus the .44 Magnum. Not in any way technical or scientific.

Soon after, as is often the case, many gun-writers and shooters just simply repeated Elmer.

And...shovelwrench is on to something. A safely loaded .45 Colt (Long Colt to get someone's goat) utilizing a 250 grain bullet at 1000 to 1100 FPS will kill anything as well. Not considering a Ty Rex.
I'm a victim of the same circumstance!!
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  #110  
Old 01-04-2014, 07:49 PM
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I'm a victim of the same circumstance!!
Same here! I just keep finding new guns on which to spend my money. The .41 magnum is another cash-sink.

Now I have both .44 and .41 magnum revolvers. I shoot them all, and reload for them all. I also have revolvers in .45 Colt, and those are my current favorite (though that could change tomorrow!).
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  #111  
Old 01-04-2014, 08:03 PM
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Same here! I just keep finding new guns on which to spend my money. The .41 magnum is another cash-sink.

Now I have both .44 and .41 magnum revolvers. I shoot them all, and reload for them all. I also have revolvers in .45 Colt, and those are my current favorite (though that could change tomorrow!).
Curses on you for bragging! LOL!

I have a 4" m29-2 and a 6.5" 629-6 Classic. THOUGHT I would be happy with that... Recently acquired a 460V... But STILL my desire to put a 4" m57 in my safe persists!
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  #112  
Old 01-05-2014, 02:53 AM
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Default 41vs44

I've had a 44 Mag, in one brand or another, since high school & always turned my nose up at the 41 Mag. Within the last year I've added a 657 & a 357 and now they have a special place on my reloading table too. I can live happily with both.
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  #113  
Old 01-06-2014, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by semperfi71 View Post
Soon after, as is often the case, many gun-writers and shooters just simply repeated Elmer.
I haven't wasted much time reading gun writers fluff lately, but I do recall most of them seemed to have little to no understanding of ammunition or ballistics. Repeating what Elmer said was very common, but it usually didn't fit what they were trying to prove, especially when it concerned the "tactical" experts. Elmer was a hunter and what he was looking for was sometimes the exact opposite of what made a good self defense round.

They would trash perfectly good products and ideas while praising worthless ones, which might have been more of a marketing tactic than ignorance.

But it was sort or humorous to read some of their little disputes over what was better based on their imaginary "facts". I picked up a magazine to read one day while the ex wife was going through several tests at the hospital. I came across an article that proved why the 9mm was superior to the .45 acp. due to the fact that small and fast was better than big and slow. The very next article proved that the .45 acp was better than the .30 carbine due to the fact that big and slow was better than small and fast. The best part was, they were both written by the same author.

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  #114  
Old 01-06-2014, 09:25 PM
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To me own self, there is really precious little that gun-writers can write that is "new" or different. So through time they must re-hash or invent.

Some of them escaped a certain amount of those "requirements" because they wrote stories connected to use of firearms and not about firearms minutiae itself.

Such as Skeeter Skelton and Jack O'Connor. They wrote more about what the guns would do than what was the latest, most efficient cow-killer.
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  #115  
Old 01-07-2014, 03:43 PM
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I have a few books about firearms and related material and it seems that most, but not all, of the older writers provided a good deal of information on the subjects they were writing about, to the point that it was obvious they knew what they were talking about.

It seems that too many of the later authors are nothing but pitch-men. What they write isn't as much fact as it is folly, trying to make you believe everything they tell you is true. It also seems their first hand experiences were written by someone that never left their easy chair.

The old writers wrote of their experiences, while the new ones' only experiences are their writings.
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  #116  
Old 01-07-2014, 04:27 PM
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All this talk makes me want to go shooting. I've got a few hundred 44 and 41's loaded up and I'm going to the farm tomorrow for some fishing and coyote hunting...I think plinking just made the schedule too.
I was on my farm yesterday doe hunting. None came by before legal quitting time but 2 coyotes did. I am using a WBY MKV in 300 WBY mag. I've loaded up some 150 grain Herter's Supersonic Wasp waist bullets I had for years, my Dad bought a bunch of stuff at a yard sale and gave me the plunder. They must be fast I can't see them scooting down range.

The coyotes were acting the fool playing around, perhaps one was in heat. I kept waiting for the little Quail eaters to line up side by side so I could get 2 with one shot. I had to settle for one.

And for the naysayers, the Kansas grain fed Does are large and mean. A 300 WBY Mag is the least you should take afield.

Nah, but it sounded good. My wife bought me the Mark V for Fathers days and I am putting it to work with light loads. The other Mark V is zeroed in for 180 grain elk loads.

I've already bagged 3 Does with my old Pre 64 Win in 270. I have 2 tags left to fill.
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  #117  
Old 01-07-2014, 04:31 PM
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I like the 41 Mag in one gun only. A Ruger 3 screw with a 4 5/8th inch BBL. I've had 2 but wasn't schmart enough to keep them. I keep my eyes open for a the "third time is the charm" keeper.
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  #118  
Old 01-07-2014, 11:05 PM
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Default RE: the .41 as inferior to the .44

I have read this entire thread with more than mild interest, and at times with more than mild amusement. Having become enamored with the Model 57 sometime in the mid-70s and being both a bullet caster and a handloader, I have had at least reasonable experience with the 57. And while I also own a couple of Smiths in the .44 and a pair of Redhawks as well, this post will be about the "smaller" magnum.

This is a Smith and Wesson forum, but I hasten to tell you that if you want pure performance out of the .41, get an FA. I cast the 411-275 SSK bullet, and when I was shooting IHMSA with my 654, I experienced a chronographed 1800 fps out of that bullet. The projectiles weighed right at 290 grains, and it took the 1-in 14 twist of the FA to make them as accurate as they should be, but that round just blew me away. I am sure the 10-1/2" silhouette barrel and very tight tolerances made the difference, but think about it: 1800 fps out of a projectile knocking on the door to 300 grains, and this from a handgun.

I have gotten 1535 and unbelievable accuracy out of my 6" Model 57 with a case full of IMR 4227 and hard cast from the now discontinued Lyman 410459, a 220-grain Keith projectile. And I have seen mid-1200s out of the same revolver with the 295-grain SSK bullet I already spoke about, with 18.5 grains of H-110. Not the best accuracy in the world, (~2" at 25 yards) but as has already been pointed out, useable in the field.

As for limited projectiles, get into casting them yourselves, and the door to .410" projectiles opens wide. I have moulds for anything from 160 grains to the 295, including a 190-grain full wadcutter that is as much fun as anything I have ever shot. I have 210, 220, 235, and 290, and am looking now at Accurate Molds to cut me one in 250-260 grains. That should be just about perfect, and about the limit of what the Smith twist will shoot with true accuracy. The 295 is like pushing a pencil out of the Smiths; the projectile is just too long for the twist.

I will close this by saying that I have nine 41s, and only four 44s. Ask me why...
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  #119  
Old 01-13-2014, 11:51 AM
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Doubless...Have only shot a limited amount of 290-305 grain bullets out of my Smiths but have had no problem with them not being accurate enough to hunt with. From a 657 6" a 305 LBT will put all the bullets in the smooth center of a paper plate at 50 yards... One reason I don't shoot heavies out of the Smiths very much is that the front sight would have to be replaced with a taller one... That and a 210-230 will do everything I need to get done from a Smith.

I also have a FA 654 6" and it is a wonderful gun... Do however wish that the lead in the cylinder throats were a little longer as it will not allow the use of real Keith bullets with the very thick front driving band.


Bob
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  #120  
Old 01-13-2014, 01:16 PM
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I though I said this way back when. Rereading the thread I don't see it.

All I can say is I consistently shot higher Q scores with my 57 loaded with 210 JHP Remington factory ammo than the "Mine is bigger than yours" crowd with their 29s loaded with 240 JHP Remington factory ammo. (We had to shoot full power ammo at one quarterly qualification a year.)
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Old 01-13-2014, 02:28 PM
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The .41s I carried were all revolvers and the ammo was STHP's at first, then lead handloads.

But I did qualify with my .41 mag Desert Eagle after I had a holster and mag pouch made for it, and I used full power handloads. The targets were stapled on old conveyor belting and there were paper plate sized holes shot through it at every shooting station. The muzzle blast was awesome, to everyone but the guy next to me, and on the fifth shot it ripped my target loose and blew it through the hole in the belting. I replaced the target and finished with a perfect score.
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  #122  
Old 03-21-2015, 01:42 AM
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I see the last post was over a year ago, but wanted to add another tidbit. My dad sold sporting goods on the side (including FFL) when he lived and worked in Yakutat Alaska in the early 70s. I would visit and we'd hunt and fish and target shoot. It was the era of Model 29s not being available, but I was persistent and willing to wait to acquire one. I told him what I REALLY wanted was a matched pair of 8 and-three-eights in nickel. It was not a really serious search for a while, then one one visit when I broached the subject again, he said "Here's what you want," as he whipped open the full color brochure of Harry Sannford's AutoMag. Well as a 22 year old I was sold and finally got it a year later (they were slow on delivery as is common knowledge). Well that thing was (still is) GREAT, so I was content. A few years late he and I were shopping in Anchorage and we saw that they had TWO model 58s in PayNSave, which was mostly a drug store, but sold a wide variety of items. So we each took one, and had lots of fun shooting together. I was aware that the ballistics were similar to the model 29, and when people would start up with the comparisons, I'd just change the subject to Automag.
I still love shooting the Model 58 and found when ammo of all sorts was scarce in early 2013, that it always seemed that .41 mag was on the shelf, when nothing else was available. I reminded my buddies that it was because the .44 was more popular. I reload so it didn't really matter, but I keep an eye out for private sales of .41 ammo because I can usually strike a pretty good bargain. I used to also reload .44 for a buddy who had a Ruger, but did not want to reload himself. He would bring over empty brass, I would reload with varying bullets and charges till he got what he liked. I still have and occasionally use the dies he bought, but I don't like doing it at the same time as .41 or .45 Colt because of the similar sizes of the cases and don't want to try jamming a larger one into a smaller die, LOL. The model 58 with one of my favorite loads makes plenty of noise (for scaring bears, not shooting them) has a big ball of fire, and tends to send the lead towards the small black circles on the paper.
Cheers for S&W fans everywhere!
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  #123  
Old 03-21-2015, 10:40 AM
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Keith, Jordan and Skeeter wanted a new police revolver. .40 cal with a 200 gr SWC at 900 fps. Picture a "pencil" barreled L frame six shot 4 inch that would weigh in about 35 oz or so. A slightly larger M10 or M15. There was no L frame at that time and apparently S&W did not want to tool up to make a new frame. So, they built a .41 Magnum on the N frame with a 4 inch fixed sight and the standard lengths with the adjustable sights. IIRC, the M58 cost about what the M10 did when it first came out.

The police ammo was about 850 fps with a 210 gr SWC in the M58. It leaded badly. The 210 gr SP was a full load and had way too much recoil for the cops. Also, the M58 weighs more than a M10 or M66. It was just not popular with the police.

I have owned numerous M57 in all the colors and lengths. All were excellent performers and I wish I had them back. If you are a handloader, the 6 inch N frame .41 Magnum is about the best balanced and practical S&W out there.

Back in the 70ties, the 41 Magnum M57 was known to hold up to full loads better than the M29. I never had problems using a 220 gr Keith and full loads of 296 or 2400. Mine never loosened up.

Concerning the Dirty Harry movie, I remember seeing an article in one of the gun mags that featured an interview with Milius. Two of the revolvers used were M57 frames with M29 barrels and cylinders. The cylinders were rechambered for the 5-in-one blanks. S&W was not running the M29 at the time the revolvers were requested. There are some promotional pictures with an 8 and 3/8 barrel also.

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  #124  
Old 03-21-2015, 02:41 PM
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Interesting viewpoints.
My $.02 ?; whatever you hit with either caliber will never know the difference.
I will comment that a 250 gr. cast .41 is a penetration monster on medium game (hogs).
I hunt with both- and .45 Colt...
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  #125  
Old 03-25-2015, 08:25 AM
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In reality...the .41 Magnum should not even exist. There was already the perfect police round on the market but for some reason no one would recognize it probably because of the name that was attached....the .401 Herter's PowerMag. It would have been the perfect round for the Colt Python and Trooper revolvers of the time and later the L-Frame and GP100...

With the popularity of the .40 S&W and 10mm I am surprised that none of the big handgun manufacturers have figured this out... Think of a Ruger Blackhawk with three cylinders...or a L-frame with one .401 cylinder and one for moon clipped .40/10mm....

That said I love the .41....so no great loss...

Bob
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  #126  
Old 03-26-2015, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by trauma1 View Post
So, i have been doing alot of research on the above 2 cartridges. From what I can find, up to 240gr bullets the 41 mag can do everything the 44mag can and sometimes a little better depending on the powder. The 44 mag has the advantage as far as heavier bullets go - 265gr and up. If what I am reading and finding is true, why isn't the 41 more popular? Seems to be superior to the 44mag in standard weights and lighter weights. Once you get above that the 44 shines but then you could go with the 45colt or 454casull and do the same and better. Seems like the 41mag just came around a little too late. definetly a better round though!
The 41 Remington Magnum is the ONLY magnum designed for the start to be a magnum. The 41 shoots just as flat as the 44 with less recoil and down range that buck or bore wont know which one took him out.
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Old 03-27-2015, 09:08 AM
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...There was already the perfect police round on the market but for some reason no one would recognize it probably because of the name that was attached....the .401 Herter's PowerMag.
I remember that round too, and every now and then someone here will mention it. I think over the years the Herter organization had so ostracized themselves, to one degree or another, from the rest of the firearms industry that there was zero chance of that round ever appearing in a revolver made by a major manufacturer. If it had, Jacques never would have let us hear the end of it! Of course the catalog did make for entertaining reading.

I thought it amusing that the people I knew were about evenly divided. Half thought Herter an amusing loon, and the other half were great admirers! There was not a lot of in-between. I remember seeing one of the Herter revolvers and wondering how something appearing so ordinary could be the subject of such extraordinary claims!

Those were good days.
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Old 03-27-2015, 09:21 AM
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Nobody yet mentioned the ear-splitting report of the .41 mag. Maybe its just me, but the .41 mag is the most deafening (with both plugs and muffs in/on ears) that I've ever heard. To me it is considerably more painful than the sound from a .44 mag.

IMHO; that's why the .41 mag never 'took off'.
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Old 03-27-2015, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by trauma1 View Post
hodgdon reloading manual.
Since the creation of this thread was predicated on data you read from Hodgdon's, it seems relevant to point out that they use a 10 1/8" barrel for the .41 Magnum velocities listed, and an 8 3/8" barrel for the .44 Magnum.
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  #130  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:00 AM
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Default .41 Mag target loads

Just got my new Model 57-6, 6" barrel. Loaded up some 215gr. SWC'S with 8gr. Unique. Never had so much fun. Accuracy is off the charts--almost makes up for any human error! Recoil seems less than my Vaquero .357. A great pleasure to shoot.
That load worked great--any other load suggestions? Mostly target shooting loads. Will deal with game loads later. Thanks!
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  #131  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:16 AM
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Default .41 Magnum vs. .44 Magnum "REVOLVALATORS"

Yes, a can of worms has been unleashed for sure with this thread......but a good conversation is going on here!

Having several S&W's and a Freedom Arms M97 chambered in the .41 Magnum I am obviously a fan. That said, I have many more S&W's in .44 Magnum and I reload, shoot and hunt with both of these very capable rounds.

Although both of these rounds are completely adequate for everything from target shooting to taking big game, I am partial to the .41 magnum.

Yes it was a hard sell being so closely matched to the .44, but who can deny that the .41 Magnum is just plain sexy!!!!

The only thing that would make it better would be the developement of a .41 "Special"!!!! And why not! We have the .38 Special and the .44 Special right!

Come on S&W.....give us another reason to go out and buy another "REVOLVALATOR"!!
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  #132  
Old 04-23-2017, 10:43 AM
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Default A simple question

When was the last time you saw a box of 41 magnum ammo sitting on the shelf in anybody's ammunition department?

I've been shooting handguns since 1972 (Ruger Single Six) and have found 2 pieces of 41 magnum brass in all my years of brass hoarding. I have seen 41 mag brass for sale once at $65 / per 100 pieces. The same advertisement listed 44 mag brass for $50 / per 100 pieces.
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  #133  
Old 04-23-2017, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead7544 View Post
Keith, Jordan and Skeeter wanted a new police revolver. .40 cal with a 200 gr SWC at 900 fps. Picture a "pencil" barreled L frame six shot 4 inch that would weigh in about 35 oz or so. A slightly larger M10 or M15. There was no L frame at that time and apparently S&W did not want to tool up to make a new frame. So, they built a .41 Magnum on the N frame with a 4 inch fixed sight and the standard lengths with the adjustable.
Hmmmm.... Wonder what those "boys" would have thought about a $299.99 SW40VE (what we paid 10+ years ago) with 14 in each of the 4 (included with a mail-in coupon!) magazines loaded with Doubletap's 200gr. Hardcast Solid WNFGC @ 1,050fps out of a 4" barrel and an estimated 490 ft./lbs. at the barrel (same as in a GLOCK G23 per Doubletap)?

P.S. And that's at a cost of just a hair over $1.00 per round, BTW!

P.P.S. Who needs a 10mm G40, anyway?

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  #134  
Old 04-23-2017, 09:48 PM
Qc Pistolero Qc Pistolero is offline
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The fact that this thread still raises interest after 5 years is proof that the initial point was a very good one.
To try to make a simple answer outta good question,I like(maybe should say love)both calibers verrrrrry much.
The only place I tend to disagree with is people talking about recoil. I've never found a big difference in that department between the 2(.41 with 225gr vs .44 with 255 gr both at aprox 1350fps).In my book,the difference amounts to like being bitten by a dog or by a bitch!
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:32 AM
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I want to clarify something . The Lyman 410459 bullet mold is NOT the Keith design for the 41 mag . Lyman introduced it , using his name but he had nothing to do with the design of it . He wrote Lyman telling them what he thought about the matter . He then went to H&G , sat down with them and designed HIS bullet for the 41 mag , H&G 258 . That design is still available today . Northern Valley Machine Co in East Grand Forks MN has all the design data for Keith's personally designed bullets , as well as many others . Their molds are top quality , I have 2 .
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:02 AM
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New to the .41 mag--what's the difference between "Kieth" bullets and other lead bullets?
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:03 AM
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Default Spell check

Sorry, meant "Keith" bullets.
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Old 04-25-2017, 10:42 AM
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pcblade , I will give you the basic differences , as I know them . First off , Elmer Keith wanted all the case capacity to hold as much powder as possible. So his bullets have a much shorter shank (part that goes in the case ) and a much longer nose . His designs has a flat bottom base . He did not use gas checks . He wanted a flat bottom grease groove to hold as much lubricant as possible . He designs have 3 equal size driving bands in diameter and thickness . The meplat , the nose size was usually about 68-69% in size compared to the diameter of the bullet itself .
Elmer Keith did not invent the swc as it had been around over 20 yrs before he designed his first bullet for the 44 spl . After some experimenting and a few changes it became the Ideal 429421 . As I mentioned above , Northern Valley Machine has all the drawings to cut original " Keith " molds using H&G's data, the company Elmer went to . When someone tells you that have a " Keith type " that is a misleading statement . What is a " keith type " ? It's either a " Keith " bullet or it's not . Any swc is not a " Keith " bullet . I cast/shoot the " Keith designed bullet " in 38/357 , 41 mag , 44 mag and 45 Colt . I get everything I'm wanting using his designs. I hope this helps .

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  #139  
Old 04-28-2017, 11:37 PM
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I'll vouch for what Cowboy says;very accurate description historically speaking of what happened as far as Mr keith intended his bullet to be.It saddens me to read about many selfsaying Keith bullets while so few actually are Keith's!A SWC bullet is not per definition a Keith bullet....far from it!
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  #140  
Old 05-09-2017, 07:56 AM
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...glad to see we are still "discussing" this subject...it will never end.

Started this thread over on the CastBoolit Forums. Has a lot of good links and threads...

.41 Magnum / 41 Special Load Data Center

Keith bullets...have to see if I can find the information again but before he died Keith collaborated with someone to redesign his bullets so they had a larger meplat. The molds are now available through NOE. The weight of the .410 bullets went from 220 to 230 grains. It was a very interesting story.

Some new developments:

.41 Special brass is now available through Starline.

.41 Special ammo is available through several custom loaders like Reed's Ammo. Great ammo especially for short cylinder guns like the Taurus Tracker and FA 97.

41 Special - Reed's Ammunition & Research, LLC


Defensive bullets and ammo using the all copper Barnes HP. Open rapidly and penetrate deep. Available from Barnes, CorBon, Buffalo Bore, Federal and others...

And now Henry has two .41 Carbines, one with a 20" and the other a 16.5" barrel with BigLoop leaver...

Bob

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Old 05-09-2017, 10:28 AM
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Supposedly before Elmer died he had some " wire rod " patterns made up . They had a shorter nose and wider meplat . There are several companies out there selling these later designs . I stick with the older / original designs as they work the best for me . I have found that Veral Smith's designs , " WFN and LFN " designs work well also . I have shot them from " mild to wild " with equal accuracy . His molds are " top rail " IMO .
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Old 05-09-2017, 12:23 PM
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My B'ar load for the 41 mag uses a 250 gr WFN Gas check bullet at approx 1050-1100 FPS. Does it need a gas check?.. I doubt it but it is a good shooting bullet. I also had one of the first H&G 258s made. invoice was dated August 1st 1964...and the postage stamp on the package was dated August 4th. I bought it at an auction in 2013 and it was still new unused after all those years. I think it was a true Keith bullet with square grease grooves etc. For some odd reason(money??) I sold it in 2016. I also have an old Lyman(Ideal) 429 421 mold that is or seems to be a true Keith mold. Old enough to be a smooth faced mold. There was some design changes by Lyman that Keith disagreed with I think. One was the square grease grooves as some had problems dropping good clean bullets..Or so I remember. Or dis-remember. I wish I had known what questions to ask all those years ago when I met him a few times. He was kind of a hoot to listen to.
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  #143  
Old 05-15-2017, 07:37 PM
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I have a mod 29 44 mag and love shooting 300 grain TFP through it. I am going to have to buy a 41 mag now . Don't encourage me.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:31 PM
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... Seems like the 41mag just came around a little too late. definetly a better round though!
No, not "a better round" at all. I think a very, very minor case might be made for saying the 57 is a "better gun" than a 29, but the .41 isn't one bit better than the .44. Just the revolver - that's all.

We've been talking about this for about fifty years now. They're both great cartridges - and revolvers.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:57 PM
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Nobody yet mentioned the ear-splitting report of the .41 mag. Maybe its just me, but the .41 mag is the most deafening (with both plugs and muffs in/on ears) that I've ever heard. To me it is considerably more painful than the sound from a .44 mag.

IMHO; that's why the .41 mag never 'took off'.
IME and ears the 32-20 and 327 fed both are louder than the 41/44.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:20 AM
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Actually I always thought the 357 was the loudest AND sharpest of them all.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:12 AM
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I realize this is a revived "zombie thread" but I'll still chime in.

When I was 11, my dad bought a Ruger BH, 4 5/8", .41 Magnum. I started shooting it the same day he did. We lived in SE Alaska, and he "loaded it for bear" as they say. I don't remember what the load was, but the bullet was a Speer 210 gr. SP. It kicked pretty good. When I was 12, I got the chance to shoot a Ruger SBH. I remember being kind of disappointed, I thought it would kick more than the .41 Mag.

I discovered that recoil has a lot to do with the gun, and not just the caliber.

Most shooters don't shoot at the kind of range where "flatter shooting" would make a difference.

And, in hindsight, my dad should have been carrying a 12 gauge slug gun!
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:50 PM
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Wink and the 41 SPL

In my experience the 41 mag has the 44 mag beat as far as penetration -ya best have a good backstop for the 41 mag.
I just got a Henry 41 Mag (and I am impressed) so I dragged out the old 58 to play with too.
Starline has released 41 SPl and I am even more impressed with it. 210 gr with 6 grs of Unique equals a sweet shooting round that really smacks the targets with the 58 and the Henry. And very pleasant and accurate to shoot.
I do like this 41 Spl
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:58 PM
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IME and ears the 32-20 and 327 fed both are louder than the 41/44.
Try military (and other rounds) out of the M-1 Carbine Ruger revolver - might just be sharper than louder but it is the Number One handgun cartridge (barring exotics) that will bring some sort of comment from your neighbors. (good, bad or just interested)
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  #150  
Old 05-19-2017, 07:15 PM
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I feel like a dedicated magnum owner. Not to one caliber. I feel I have to own and shoot all three the 357mg, 41mg & 44mg. I had one outing with the s&w m58 (sick) but I love it. The first n frame I ever shot. The 41 mag impressed me. I been a 44mag guy since the first dh movie.
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