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Old 02-21-2014, 03:42 PM
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Default How many times are safe?

I fired off about 80 rounds of 40 S&W's reloads today at the range out of the 80 two failed , one expelled the primer, the second fired but after examining the case I found this crack .
These particular cases were loaded three times. Not chancing it, threw them out
These were not overloads but starting recomendations
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:58 PM
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Default Just a possibility

Not saying that this is the cause, but maybe your gun has an oversized chamber and the process of resizing is too much work hardening causing failure. One thing that makes me say that is that the first sign of trouble with a straight pistol cartridge is often a split neck but it looks like this one went straight to case wall failure. Also, you have to have good brass to start. If it work hardens too fast it won't last long.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:13 PM
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You may have gotten some "bad" brass. Typically good cases are good for many (think dozens) of moderate loadings. If the brass composition or annealing is off cases may fail on the first firing.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:27 PM
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Treeman said pretty much what I was going to.

What is the history of the brass? You said loaded 3 times, but did you buy it new?? If it was only the 3-4th time it was loaded then something is wrong.

How were they cleaned?

What was your powder, charge bullet COL etc.???

I have 40SW that has been loaded many many time. never seen one split.
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:53 PM
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I'd also first suspect a bad batch of brass. Try a different brand of either virgin , or once fired by yourself brass. instead of loading a big batch , load a handfull several times in sucuesion. If problem persists , then devle into the other possabilities.
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:09 PM
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"Expelling the primer" makes me think either hot loads, or defective brass.

Larry
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:23 PM
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I have a bunch of 38 Super cases that you can not read the head stamp they have been loaded so many times. As long as the primer stays in and and hold a crimp I just keep reloading them.
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:58 PM
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45acp and 38 sp are low pressure rounds and I have cases I have been using for 40 years. I don't load at the top end and they seem to last a very long time.
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Old 02-21-2014, 10:42 PM
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I have 40S&W cases fired in a Glock that have been loaded 10+ times.
No splits or horribly loose primers yet.
All of my loads are in the middle area of loading data.
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Old 02-22-2014, 02:21 PM
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Some years ago several of us went together and bought 10,000 rounds of once fired mil brass, 45 acp. 90% of it was a TZZ head stamp. I began having that kind of vertical case splits with the 2nd reload. I am still using some of it, and to this day (close to 20 years later) I still use it and about every time I clean up brass to reload I find 1 or 2 with a split. I just pitch it in my junk brass bucket and keep on going. I probably still have 500-600 rounds of that brass.
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Old 02-22-2014, 02:31 PM
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The world is not a perfect thing

There is always going to be imperfect materials and equipment and things are going to happen........... that as one gentleman said in one of the post that I read....
"The nature of the beast".

With all the pressures and working of brass and gun, there will be a few that die young. Shed a few tears then.............

As the Gunny would say......"Suck it up" and get on with the show !!

I feel bad when I loose a case but that is why they make so many.........and if you have a bad cylinder, just market with some of the wife's finger nail polish and don't use it.

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Old 02-22-2014, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
Some years ago several of us went together and bought 10,000 rounds of once fired mil brass, 45 acp. 90% of it was a TZZ head stamp. I began having that kind of vertical case splits with the 2nd reload. I am still using some of it, and to this day (close to 20 years later) I still use it and about every time I clean up brass to reload I find 1 or 2 with a split. I just pitch it in my junk brass bucket and keep on going. I probably still have 500-600 rounds of that brass.
Ahhhh!!! Funny you bring this up. A friend who does not load gave me 1000 of those 45 ACP (TZZ is IMI). Once fired, Not knowing they were crimped I just tossed them in my pile of brass. It has taken me a looong time to cull them out put them in their own bucket and decrimp the damn things!

It is very good brass but that sure was a lesson learned!!

We have not heard from the OP but 40 SW is a different animal could be a number of things.
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Old 02-22-2014, 06:52 PM
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The old TZZ cases are not exactly like the newer TZZs and the IMIs. Some of the late 80s-early 90s TZZs were very inconsistently made. I had a lot of trouble sizing some and some just had to be pitched.

I'm baffled by "expelling the primer." Haven't seen that one.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:39 PM
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Mine is the older vintage and is jut fine. Israel knows how to make Military stuff, they have been at war since time began unfortunately. There is even TZZ MATCH brass.

But again this OT and the OP is taking 40 SW but we seem to have lost him.
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Treeman said pretty much what I was going to.

What is the history of the brass? You said loaded 3 times, but did you buy it new?? If it was only the 3-4th time it was loaded then something is wrong.

How were they cleaned?

What was your powder, charge bullet COL etc.???

I have 40SW that has been loaded many many time. never seen one split.
This was a first fired round out of a box of new Winchesters that I had loaded with American select at the starting load 180 gr copper clad Winchester bullets I think that this was one bad out of 50 every other one fired with no problems. I got to know the feel of when a primer seats after doing several thousand rounds of 4 different calibers and didn't feel anything unusual Any other brass I get is at the range Many members are happy to give them to me rather then throwing them in the bucket and I know they are first fired
They all had little or no bulged cases like the case in question
I run them all through the bulge buster and clean them in a tumble type cleaner
Thanks for all the information you guys provided
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:14 PM
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Default To answer your question

Brass in most pistol calibers can be reloaded dozens of times. Some calibers are harder on brass and magnum loads will reduce the life of the case.

Last edited by rwsmith; 02-24-2014 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:45 PM
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The History of the brass could also come from a different direction.

I am not saying this is the issue for this case, but we all have to remember that many cartridges are designed for the military and police. The case thicknesses, proportions of zinc and copper, method of fabrication, powder, powder charge, etc were specified for just one firing.

They don't reload on the battlefield, or in the cities fighting crime.

Stress strain curves from now unclassified Army manuals show design pressures that well exceed the elastic limit, almost to rupture, of the brass during that one firing. That's efficient design not defective.

Maybe the new 180 gr Winchesters rounds you bought, were from a run of brass mostly heading to the military or the police.
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Old 02-24-2014, 12:53 AM
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I handload around 4000 9mm a month, last summer I started throwing split cases that I found during brass prep or running through the press into a cup. I was curious about the frequency of cracking. Right now I have 10 cases in the cup after 8 months (or 32,000 rounds). I may be getting to the end of life on some of the brass since the frequency of splits has increased. I don't count the number of reloads on each piece. I figure that I come back from the range with about 30% new once fired brass (from other shooters) and probably lose that much every time (it bounces to places where brass can't be "harvested") so it's a constant rotation of stock.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:03 AM
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When I first started had loading a long time ago I would routinely keep track of how many times a batch of cartridges had been loaded but after a few years gave up. Now I just inspect them and toss any split or damaged cases. I have loaded some of my .45's (acp & Colt) and some .38 Specials so many times with very few splits. If I had to guess, I'd say at least 10 - 12 times and they are still working well. Note: I do not load to maximum levels as I use my re-loads solely for target shooting and plinking. I would suspect that the hotter your loads are the less case life you should expect.
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:09 AM
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The question being "how many times are safe", I think that the failure shown in the picture is not an unsafe condition.

Fatal to the brass, to be sure, but not unsafe.

Do you have to "Bulge Bust" every case each time you reload it? Might that contribute to a shorter case life.
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max View Post
45acp and 38 sp are low pressure rounds and I have cases I have been using for 40 years. I don't load at the top end and they seem to last a very long time.
I started reloading in 1973. Like max, I have brass that is that old that has been reloaded many, many times. I know of one box of Remington .45 Colt brass that was reloaded 20 plus times. Yes, out of that box of 50, several did split.

I also got a bunch of .45 ACP military, headstamped WCC 72, 73, and 74, down at Fort Eustis VA in the mid '70s. This was all once fired and I loaded this brass 10-15 times or more.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:50 AM
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Default Round fired off normal

Quote:
Originally Posted by blujax01 View Post
The question being "how many times are safe", I think that the failure shown in the picture is not an unsafe condition.

Fatal to the brass, to be sure, but not unsafe.

Do you have to "Bulge Bust" every case each time you reload it? Might that contribute to a shorter case life.
I just run brass through the buster to check them, a lot of them you can see and feel the bulge, most come out of early Gen Glocks, most go through easily . The round in question went off as normal I didn't suspect any problems until I examined the case. I fire mine out of my M&P
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:19 AM
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A point I've been wanting to bring up lately...

Most all of us pick up brass at the range that was fired by someone else and left laying. Most of us also buy brass from time to time from folks who seem to always have the brass advertised as "once fired". Fact is whether you pick up other folks leftovers at the range or whether you buy "once fired" from some other guy who did the same thing at his range chances are that some, if not most, of this brass is not "once fired". Unless you or the person you bought the brass from was standing there watching this piece of brass being loaded and fired from a box of new factory ammo there is no way of knowing whether the empty piece of brass has been fired once or twenty times. I have bought several thousand pieces of rifle and pistol brass over the last few years and also picked up several thousand at the gun club. Rarely do I sort through a bag of brass that I've purchased from someone as "once fired" and not find a few pieces that are split either at the neck or all the way down the case wall. Just saying... Your particular piece of brass that split could have been loaded dozens of times before it came into your hands.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:16 PM
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Using Brasso when you tumble cases can cause that situation too. Brasso contains ammonia, which hardens the brass' surface, and after a while it will simply crack down the middle like that.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:08 AM
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The brass I pick up at the range is first fired new out of the box I always ask and most people except other reloaders are happy to give it out.
Some ask me questions about reloading and are interested in doing it, now that ammo is getting easier to get people are just buying the new stuff even at the prices the LGS's are charging, one day at the range a member went in the store to buy more 9's and was charged 27.00 for a box of Geko ammo
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