As I sit here anxiously awaiting the arrival of my H&G #258 .41 Keith bullets, I was wondering what evryones favorite loads are in this grand cartridge. For a economic all around load I've found that 8.5gr of Unique and a 215gr SWC perform really well in my BH. I may even back that load down 8gr as I found my revolver shoots that just as well too.

When my Keith bullets get here I plan on working up a full power hunting load with 2400. So what do the rest of you .41 fanatics like to shoot?

I'll play:

.41 Magnum:

12.0 grains of Blue Dot, Remington cases, CCI large magnum primer, 215-gr TVB LSWC, firm roll crimp - nice load that shoots in the low/mid-1200 -fps-range from a 4" tube, shoots like a laser. After the "ZOMG! Sky is Falling!" warnings Alliant put out a couple years ago, I called and spoke to a fellow there. I told him of this load and he said, "That's acceptable." He also allowed that they'd be putting out new load data soon - I don't know that it's happened. So, whatever you do, on your own head be it.

9.2 grains of Unique, Remington cases, CCI large magnum primer, 215-gr LSWC hardcasts of any type, moderate roll crimp - my longtime all-the-time .41 Mag load. Gives mid-1100-fps-range velocities from a 4" gun, and is very accurate (Hey, it's a .41! )

7.5 gr 7625, Remington cases, CCI large standard primer, 215-gr TVB LSWC hardcasts, moderate roll crimp - new load I'm finding is very pleasant. Throws the bullets at just over 1k fps from a the 4" barrel, with deviations less than 15 fps. Another (yawn) laser from the .41. This would be the handload that I would use in the gun for "social work" - if I ever keep the gun around the house loaded for Gina to use, this is what's going in it.

6.5 grains Trail Boss, CCI cases, CCI large standard primer, any 215-gr LSWCs, moderate roll crimp - POWDER PUFF for the .41! Gina loved shooting this. I would note that it was one of the least accurate .41 loads I've ever rolled, but that just means that it shot like a .45 Glock so it's no problem. Velocities around 860 fps from the 4" gun, deviation around 15 fps.

i too love 41 mag.as of late between 7.0 & 10.5 gr.of unique lg.pistol primer for the 215gr swc
i have a number of loads for this caliber but the unique and been pleasing as of late

__________________
SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

Barrel length would be of interest there, rkrcpa.

7.5 grains of Unique and a 210 grain SWC is the load I usually use. Shoots great.

__________________
SWCA #2421

rkrcpa, is it normal for 2400 to post such large extreme spreads?

Looks like it was only one bad round.

7.0 of Unique and a cast swc works just fine for me.

Those are velocities from a 7 1/2" barrel. And yes, it was just one bad shot as far as the velocity variation goes.

I'm somewhat surprised by the velocities, I have notes from 1995 that show 1500fps and SD of 20 with slightly more 2400 and CCI magnum primers. In fact, my records show a 275gr bullet at 1260fps and SD of 12 with 16.5grs. of 2400 and magnum primers. It's hard to believe the primers would make that big a difference. Maybe I need to do a little side by side comparison and see what I find.

10.5 gr. 800X & a 210-215 gr. cast SWC.

I like the 210-215 cast loads flung downrange in the 950-1200fps recipe range. Don't care for Unique, prefer Titegroup/Clays/HP38 etc.

It's all good stuff really.

__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas

In my experience, they can make a big difference with Nr. 2400. Get a box of Federal 150s and compare them against Winchesters.

I use 19.0 in my .41s, which I have found tends to have just a tiny bit better uniformity than charges 1/2- or 1-gr less. Winchester brass and F150s. Bullets sized to .410". In every M57 I have used this load in, it will usually tear a ragged hole at 25-yards - IF you can keep your nerves under control when you see those first two or three flying into the same hole, or real close together. It is a shame that load is a little too mean for me to enjoy shooting very much, but I sure admire the results when I do my part.

For indoor target loads, I have used a lot of different powders including Unique, 231, Universal, 800X, and WSF. I have used more Unique than the others, but am not happy with any of them. Next on the list to try is AA5. I generally shoot 7-rounds over the chronograph. I am still looking for some combination that consistently shows less than 50 FPS extreme spread, with muzzle velocity around 900 FPS or a bit more, not prone to leading, and shoots accurately. The closest so far has been 7.0 grs 231, which gives just a bit over 900 FPS, normally comes in under the 50 FPS ES requirement, and is accurate, but leading is a bit of a problem, whereas the 2400 load leads comparatively little.

All you guys shooting Unique. 7-9 grains....how is that load as far as a woman shooting?

__________________
Winchester~Smith & Wesson~<3

The recoil feels the same as a 1911 to me.

I read your other post , and my favorite bullet too is the Lyman #410459. I have a friend who casts them for me. I get him wheelweights from friends who own or work in garages , and linotype from a former employer. He gives me back 1/4 the weight in hardcast , sized and lubed bullets. As I have posted many times before , all SWCs are not created equal. The #410459 bullet and other true "Keith-style' bullets have a lot of the mass in that big nose and a relatively short 'shank' , which leaves lots of room for more powder in the case. Exactly why Elmer designed it this way. This is where many people run into trouble. If you use data for this bullet , and substitute any other 210-215gr bullet , which has a longer shank , (more bullet in the case = less powder space) , you run a distinct possiblity of a compressed load and dangerously high pressure.

Good example , the Lyman cast bullet handbook listed a max of 16gr of Blue Dot (my standard load) with the 220gr #410459 , but a max of 14.6 with the 215gr #410610 , which has the longer shank (comparible with the 215gr bevel base SWC sold by many casters) and seats deeper in the case leaving less capacity.

I know many loaders simply look for the max listed charge for a given weight of bullet , without regards to the actual bullet design, or case capacity with bullet fully seated. I have heard this is why Alliant has put out a warning about Blue Dot in .41 mag.

But I like Blue Dot in all my magnum revolver loads. Been using it for 25yrs. Works great in shorter barrels too , better than H-110/W-296. More complete burn and less fireball. Big fireball is an impressive site , but it's powder burning outside the barrel.

I agree, many people (even bullet manufacturers) think any SWC is a "Keith" bullet.



Here is a (L-R) LBT 250gr WFNGC, 220gr H&G 258 Keith, standard 215gr. SWC and a 170gr FP. It is easy to see the differences in profile and shank length. If you were to use the 20gr max load of 2400 for the 410459 with the standard 215gr SWC I can see bad things happening.

Thanks for the great pic! Those two in the middle shows the difference perfectly. Some slow powders like H110/W296 work best with a slightly compressed charge. But that is more than a little. Substitute a slightly faster powder like B-D and things get hairy quick. I've been using 15-16gr with the Lyman 410459 for many years with no high pressure signs. Then one day I tried the RCBS 41-210 with 15grs B-D and got immediate high pressure signs,.

Great photo comparing the different bullets. Something that I don't understand is why commercial casters don't make true Keith bullets but opt for the SWCBB style instead. Keith perfected the SWC design years ago. They carry most of the weight outside the case leaving more room for powder yet still operating at modest pressure, have a meplet 67%-70% of the bullet diameter, a deep crimp groove, and three equal full diameter and full width driving bands, and a large flat bottom grease groove for lots of lube. His bullets truly are an all around bullet, so why have manufacturers settled for bullets of inferior design?

I've wondered that myself. I've heard that the bevel base and rounded lube groove drops easier from a mold, I can see that being a concern for high production. As far as the crimp groove placement and nose length, my Lyman 46th has a caution regarding the OAL for the 410459 exceeding SAAMI OAL of 1.59". The 215gr SWC OAL is within SAAMI guidelines. I assume there must be some revolvers out there that won't accept the longer bullet.

BTW, there was a recent article in "Handguns" magazine regarding "Keith" bullets and every bullet shown in the article was a SWCBB design. I'm sure Elmer is rolling over in his grave. It was enough to convince me to never buy that magazine.

My loads are in the range quoted. My youngest son was shooting them
in competition at 12. His sister is small with small hands but she, and
her college roommate made quite a dent in my .41 reload supply shooting
my M657 one afternoon. Both guns had Pachmayr "Gripper" grips installed. That helped some, I believe.

That long nose Keith-style bullet , with a suggested loaded OAL of 1.700" won't fit in some .41mag revolvers. It's real close in my S&Ws or Ruger Blackhawks , but supposedly too long for a Taurus.

6.2 grains of Win 231 under a 215 lead SWC
6.6 grains of Win 231 under a Hornady 210 XTP

Both pleasant to shoot with good terminal performance.

mkk41 that is true of the Taurus tracker series as they use shorter cylinders for those models, but of little consequence in S&W, Ruger, & full sized Taurus revolvers. Regardless of that however Elmers bullets have become the standard by which all others are judged.

I shoot a Missouri Bullets 210 grain SWCBB over 16.5 grains of AA #9( and a Winchester large pistol primer(marked for standard or mag loads). I just chronographed it this afternoon, 1328 fps average. I up the charge to 17 grains for a 210 grain Hornady XTP for the same speed as a hunting round.

__________________
Nothing to see here,move along

This has proved to be a powerful and extremely accurate load in a couple of M57's I'm acquainted with:

Remington case
Winchester LP primer
Lyman 410549 cast 3:2 wheelweights:linotype
21.7 grains H110

Bruce

Wha is the barrel length of your revolver?

AA # ???

Thanks for the post.

Cary/LL

__________________
Reason only visits those ...

5 1/2" Ruger Bisley Blackhawk

__________________
Nothing to see here,move along

Ooops....AA#9

__________________
Nothing to see here,move along

Yippee my Montana Bullets #258 .41Keith bullets arrived today. I'm going to work up to 19gr of 2400 and see how they do. I really wish that there was more data available for this bullet. It is amazing how little case capacity this bullet takes up compared to other bullets.

Just worked up some loadings using 8.7, 9.0, 9.4, and 9.7 grains of Unique behind Berry's 210 grain plated bullets. My Redhawk seemed to like 9.4 and 9.7 best, so I'm going go go with 9.7. They should shoot around 1100 - 1150 fps per Alliant; I'll be chronographing them on a camping/shooting/fishing outing we have planned in mid April. These are very mild, pleasant shooting rounds.

For full-power loads, I use 265 grain Cast Performance LWFNGC in front of 21.2 grains of 'Lil Gun. This combination chronographed at 1330 fps from my 6-1/2" Blackhawk. I'll measure the speed out of my Redhawk in April, too. These are neither mild nor pleasant shooting rounds.

My everyday load in the 41 maggie is 8 grs of Unique & a 230 gr Keith slug from an old Saeco #411 mould, very hard to find! My serious hunting load is the same bullet & 17 grs of 2400, not a maximum load but I've taken deer, elk, bear & hogs with it with complete penetration.
The square lube groove isn't as important as it used to be, back in the old days many of the lubes being used were much inferior to what we have today. Actually today you can use to much lube & sometimes end up with less accuracy. The first driving band is important, its the one that takes all the initial force when it travels through the forcing cone into the rifling, so its important that it be kept as Elmer (The Prophet) designed it.
I also use a 250 gr LBT WFN slug with 9.2 grs of Unique, again not a max load but runs over 1100 fps in my Bisley & Its taken out both shoulders on elk & exited.

Dick

Hi sixshot glad to see you posting here. I love reading about your handgunning exploits as well as looking at the great pics that accompany the fantastic narratives. Please keep sharing with us.

Try the Montana Bullet works LBT 220 gr. WFN gas checked bullet in front of 17.0 grs. of 2400 in a Starline case and a Rem. 2 1/2 primer.Velocity is right around 1150 FPS from my 657 7.5" gun.Pretty mild to shoot and is spooky accurate.

It will penetrate over 27.5 " of water in milk jugs.What's not to like ??

8.0 grains of Unique with any 200-230 grain cast or jacketed bullet gets 925-975 fps from a 4" barrel. It is also one hole accurate....

Besides the Taurus, the Freedom Arms 97 will not take Keith bullets crimped in the proper groove.

Another favorite combination for a mid-range load is 12-13 grains of SR4756. This gives 1250+- fps depending on the bullet used.

For full power loads H110 is the one for me. Just fill the case till the bullet just sits on top of the powder so it won't move and crimp heavily in place. Works with everything from the 170 Sierra JHC to the 300 grain SSK and LBT designs.

1980 vintage M57. Target is 6 shots offhand DA at 25 yards with a hardcast Keith SWC/8.0 Unique that weighed 211 grains from Linotype metal. The one outside the group was the 4th shot and was my fault not the guns.



1999 Mountain Gun. Target shot at 50' DA. Blank silhouette target. The one outside the group was the first round and the aiming point for the other 5. Berry's plated 210/8.0 Unique.



657 6". 6 rounds SA sitting at 50 yards. 300 grain LBT/19.0 H110. The first round went just over the plate with a center hold. Dropped down to a 6 0'clock hold for the next 5.



Three different 300 grain .41s....



657 6". 6 rounds DA offhand at 20 yards. 230 Leadhead Bullet Co. Keith/8.0 Unique...(target says 9.0 but it was 8)





Bob

My favorite combination, one I settled on over 20 years ago, is 17 gr/2400, std primer, 215 gr hard cast SWC, firm roll crimp, brass trimmed to same length. Substitute a 210 gr jacketed bullet, add .5 gr, the rest is the same.

These are tremendous loads in all three of my M57-2s. I tried slightly more powder, found I got more pressure than I liked in these guns.

2400 is an agreeable powder to get along with. It lights easier, by far, than ball powders, hence the standard primers. It has always been superb for accuracy.

As others above have noted, mid-range mild charges of Unique produce very accurate loads as well, but as I've gotten older I much prefer one load and learn it well (I count the jacketed and cast bullets as one load, as they print to the same POI at 50 yards). If I want a gun to shoot bullseyes and nothing else, pretty hard to beat a .45 match gun, or a Model 41 .22. These .41 Magnum guns are built for power, however, and that's how I load them.

I finally got to the range today to try out my 220gr Montana Bullet Works bullets. I had 5 rounds each with 18.5gr and 19.0gr of 2400. The 18.5gr load was pretty stout to say the least, the 19.0gr load was more of a WHOA MOMMA. Recoil with that load is all I ever care to endure to be sure. Both loads were very accurate at 10yd considering my meager skill, the 19.0gr charge was a bit tighter but not much cases ejected with ease and there was no signs of excessive pressure. I plan on sticking with the 18.5gr load however as it and my 8.5gr Unique share the same point of impact. The 19.0gr load was about an inch or so below point of aim.

I also experimented by shooting some 215gr SWC bullets with 8.5gr of Unique with out LLA being applied. I had more leading than I expected so I'm going to continue lubing my commercial cast bullets with the stuff. I also have some 230gr Keith bullets on the way from Dry Creek can't wait to give them a whirl next I'm not planning running those to full throtle however. I'm going to see how they like 8.0gr - 8.5gr of Unique.

I just bought a new SW M-58 4''. I am looking for a good accurate load in the 800-900 FPS range with a 200-210 lead and/or JSP bullet. I have used H-110 in hot loads w/ another 41 but prefer a slow heavy bullet for personal/home defense protection.

Anyone know a good starting load ?

I'm afraid H110 isn't a good choice for reduced loads. There are some great powders that will do a much better job, if you can find them. Try reading over the posts above, make some notes and see which powders above will get you where you want.

My personal carry load for the .41 magnum is 8.0 grs. of Unigue under a 210-220 gr. lead SWC bullet, or under a Lee 208 gr. WC. I've never chronographed these loads, but they "feel" right and shoot great.

Is that 8.0 gr Unique a starting load or is it a worked up to load? What gr weight did you start with? I know H-110 is only good for Hot loads not light ones. I like Unique, 2400 and Red Dot. Thanks for the information.

TG

Groo here
I was looking for a load to take a class with.
I found 6 gr Trailboss with a 215grSWC most places.
Tried same- 25 shots at 21ft [ inside ,raining] 5 from each gun , 5 different revolvers , in a group smaller than a 1/2 dollar.....
Must be the sweet spot!!!!!!!

I use a 250 grain Cast Performance hard cast in front of 7.2 grains of Unique. Nice and accurate mild shooter...great out of my 3" 657, and a pussycat from my 6½" 657-2 CH.

__________________
No good deed goes unpunished.

I started at 7.0 and worked up from there. I had loaded up to 10.0 grs. but the accuracy at 8 grs. was exceptional, the recoil was controllable and it still packs a good punch.

When I work up loads I research them as best as I can with the data and resources I have on hand, but it's hard to find anyone any more that seems concerned with accuracy.

Just acquired my 1st .41,, a 6" 57. Fixing to start loading for it as soon as brass and dies come in. Have a keg of 2400 so going that route with powder and WLP primers. Found some Sierra 170's that ought to be fun. Probably start out 16-17 gr and work up. Local bullet maker builds 215 SWC that I will give a try.

57 on top

For a fairly mild load I found 8.8gr/Power Pistol with Rim Rock's 240gr. LSWC-FB to be very accurate in my 657-5. I'm guessing it's around 1125fps. (Handloader #285 had the RR 230gr bullet & 8.0/P-P @ 1065fps from a 5-1/4" bbl.)

What's nice about the long barrel is that it feels like you're half way to the target already.

.

657-5 Hunter Classic 7-1/2" bbl.


.



.

I bought my first Model 57 in 1979 and started handloading and casting in 1980. Needless to say, I read everything I could find about the middle magnum. I settled on Ken Waters' pet load of 21 grains of IMR 4227 behind the Lyman 410459, lit with a CCI LP primer. That load would stack them all into one hole at 50' if I did my part, and I could substitute the Remington 210-grain JSP for the Lyman and get the same result.

There were a few partially burned kernels of powder left in the barrel, but that never bothered me. It appeared to me that the recoil from that round was significantly softer than most of the other loads I tried, and velocity was mid-1400s with the Lyman out of the 6-1/2" barrel, if memory serves.

Since my last post on this thread, 2 years and a month ago, I've gotten back into casting....mostly for .41s. Tried 15.0 grains of 2400 and it was accurate and pleasant to shoot with bullets from 200-250 grains. I was mainly just buring up powder I don't use all that often saving the Unique for the accuracy work. It is also the powder I use in a lot of different calibers including cast bullets in rifles.

But the more I shoot the more I am just putting 8.0 grains of Unique anything .41 and it always works well. Not the fastest loads in the world but is accurate to the extreme and can be shot al day long.

Last September I made a trip to Idaho to meet up with friend old and new. Ended up in Elmer's old stomping grounds and what a place to shoot. This was shooting 2-550 yards across a dry lake bed... The spotter could easily see the hits so one could adjust ones sights for the next try...



The targets...



200 yard target...with holes...




950 fps from a 4" barrel....apparently that is all that is needed...

Bob

Though not at the longer ranges you were shooting at, I have some experience from shooting IHMSA matches with similar Unique loads in my .41 and .44 Magnums. They did quite well. 1000 FPS with any .41-.44 cal. 220-250gr Keith bullet is nothing to take lightly. It was always fun to watch the reactions of others when they would see my "light loads" topple the rams. A good hit never failed. I did just as well with Unique as I did with 2400, all things considered.

I am not saying I would shoot at a game animal with such loads, especially at any distance, but as you say, it is surprising what they will do - and you can indeed shoot them "all day" without beating yourself senseless.