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  #1  
Old 05-01-2012, 07:19 PM
Big Kev Big Kev is offline
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I have just purchased a new set of three dies from Lee for 38/357 Cal and I am wondering do I need the forth die. I am shooting Center fire over 25 yards with a 686 and I am just starting to reload and I want to get it right.
I am relatively new to reloading as you most likely can tell. I am using a Turret press. I intend to use the 357 case and a SWC or HBWC pushed down flush with the case. I would like to know if I am on the right track as I am looking for as much consistency as possible. Is the selection of lead ok and do I need the forth die ?

If someone can advise me, I would be very thankful. Kevin
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  #2  
Old 05-02-2012, 12:04 AM
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Gamer Gamer is offline
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I haven't been loading that long and others here far more qualified to address your concerns. Hopefully, they will chime in but I'll offer up my opinion. I chose to buy the Lee 4 die sets, mainly because I wanted to do a seperate crimp with the factory crimp die just to simplify things being a newbie. However, the Lee die instructions seem to be very well done and I would think you'll be fine with the 3 die set if you follow them closely. If you have the Lee manual it also addresss set ups etc.
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  #3  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:47 AM
Steve C Steve C is offline
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In a Lee pistol die set with four dies the 4th die is the Factory Crimp die. The FC die is a maximum dimension die that has a post sizing ring that will iron out any outside diameter case dimensions of a loaded round that exceeds SAAMI maximum to the meet the SAAMI maximum standard. In the .38 spl and .357 mag it also provides a roll crimp so you can crimp in a separate step. It does not seat the bullet.

Die 3, the seating die will crimp the bullet if set to do so. You can use it to do the final seat and crimp thus skipping the FC die number 4. If everything goes right the round will be within spec and even if you do use the FC die there will be no post sizing.

If you have trouble in chambering your rounds due to bulging of the case during seating then the FC die can fix the problem.

Crimping as a separate step is considered preferable to seating and crimping in the same step in some situations and is considered by some a better method of producing accurate ammo.

IMO the FC die is quite useful for semi auto cartridges but not usually needed for revolver cartridges.
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  #4  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:08 AM
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David LaPell David LaPell is offline
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You can crimp your loads with the seater die but I found it easier to have the separate crimp die, also I found out that the expander die with that set doesn't do that great of a job on .38 brass, I bought a Hornady die for that. I was wondering why you are using a turret press as a beginner. A single stage lets you take your time, the faster you go the more likely you are to make mistakes.
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  #5  
Old 05-02-2012, 03:35 AM
MrApathy MrApathy is offline
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if its a lee turret he can go single stage with it.
turret press isnt much of a step up for beginner if he takes his time.

Quote:
I intend to use the 357 case and a SWC or HBWC pushed down flush with the case.
what powder and what gr bullet? where did you find the recipe to sit it flush with the case?
cant just wing it seating deep increases pressure,reducing powder decreases it but good to
have load books for references, more than one book. type of lead matters as well.

Last edited by MrApathy; 05-02-2012 at 03:39 AM.
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  #6  
Old 05-02-2012, 10:12 AM
Ziptar Ziptar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C View Post

[SNIP]

If you have trouble in chambering your rounds due to bulging of the case during seating then the FC die can fix the problem.

[SNIP]

IMO the FC die is quite useful for semi auto cartridges but not usually needed for revolver cartridges.
If the case is bulging during seating then something else isn't right. Either the expander isn't adjusted correctly or just not getting the job done or the full length sizer is too small and most likely out of specs all together.

I agtee with you on the FCD, semi auto guys love them and I can see why. When it comes to revolver rounds I don't think it solves any thing the wouldn't be happening as long as the first three dies befote it are setup and working correctly.

I'm not dissing it mind you I own one, I just don't use it.
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  #7  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:17 PM
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gwpercle gwpercle is offline
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Big Kev

Just to clarify whats been said about bullet seating and crimping. The #3 die is a seat/crimp ,usual instructions tell you how to adjust it to seat and crimp in one step. But if you wish to seat all bullets , then crimp them in a seperate step you can but you have to adjust the die , each time , to first seat the bullet without applying any crimp. Then readjust the die to apply a crimp without seating the bullet any deeper. The #4 die is the seperate crimp die used when you get tired of adjusting and readjusting #3 over and over.

I like to seat and crimp in seperate steps and for years just adjusted die #3 back and forth. Couldn't get a seperate crimp die back then, now you can... so get the #4.

Get yourself some exact load data for the bullet and powder you wish to use, seat the bullet to the depth shown in the manual. don't deep seat bullets unless the data shows it. Deep seating can cause pressures to skyrocket. This is not an area to experiment with...FOLLOW PUBLISHED LOAD DATA.

gary
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  #8  
Old 05-02-2012, 04:15 PM
Dale53 Dale53 is offline
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I have been reloading for sixty years (as well as casting my own bullets).

I have LONG been a fan of a separate crimp die. The issue is not quite as simple as some would suggest (not pointing fingers at any of us, of course). If you use a bullet with a long, tapered crimp groove (genuine Keith designs are good examples) you can use a three die set to good effect crimping as you seat the bullet. However, MANY bullet designs without that long tapered crimp group will push lead ahead of the bullet as you try to seat and crimp at the same time.

Back in the day, I was quite active in PPC shooting when revolvers ruled the roost. I had access to a Ransom Rest and also many fellow club members loaned me their revolvers to run on the Rest with a variety of loading techniques. We shot wadcutters on every stage except the speed loading stage (for that one we shot round nose standard bullets for obvious reasons).

I discovered the the four die set was VERY desirable as it allowed me to seat with the seating die, then crimp with the 4th die insuring that no lead was pushed ahead of the case mouth to cause leading, accuracy issues or feeding issues with auto pistols. I also discovered, to my satisfaction that I got better results with the wadcutters when a taper crimp was employed. I learned to use JUST enough taper crimp to retain the bullets from moving forward from recoil delivered the bullet to the revolver with minimal damage going from the case to cylinder throats to barrel forcing cone. This gave more consistent accuracy. However, in fairness, I admit that you can load excellent wadcutter ammunition with a light roll crimp. Just don't overdo the crimp whether roll or taper.

The taper crimp die is more forgiving if you are using mixed brass that has not been trimmed. Consistent roll crimping requires brass to be of the same length to get good, accuracy results (otherwise you will get inconsistent crimps).

Later, when loading for the Smith Model 52 auto pistol, I learned that this only used flush mounted wadcutters. As I said above, I cast most of my own bullets but ran tests with hollow base wadcutters of various brands as well as cast dbl ended wadcutters. I also tested various brands of .38 Special match ammo at the same time.

Ed Harris has written extensively on loading .38 Special ammo (he was an NRA Technician and also a developmental engineer with Ruger). It would pay you to read what he has to say regarding powder charges and .38 wadcutters.

Ed Harris: Casting and reloading the .38/.357 | Reloading, Ammunition | GrantCunningham.com

I have two Dillon 550B's set up to load (one for small primers and one for large primers) as well as a Lee Classic Cast Turret (four hole turret) for small batches. The Lee allows you to change calibers in seconds and if I have less than 200 rounds to load, the Lee will do it in an hour including set up time.

As a matter of fact, I recommend the Lee to any mechanically minded beginner that wants to load for handguns. He can load as a single stage press until he gets accustomed to the machine, then work up to 150-200 rounds per hour. It is a great press at a great price.

Later, when and if his needs expand, he can buy a Dillon while keeping the Lee for small runs, as I do.

FWIW
Dale53

Last edited by Dale53; 05-02-2012 at 04:26 PM.
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  #9  
Old 05-02-2012, 04:16 PM
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Most important: DO NOT PUSH LEAD BULLETS TOO FAST OUT OF A .357 MAGNUM (OR ANY ROUND, FOR THAT MATTER). If you are using lead, stay at the lower powder charges of you Min/Max!

G
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  #10  
Old 05-03-2012, 08:15 PM
Big Kev Big Kev is offline
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Thanks very much everyone for your help. I have ordered a copy of the Lee Manual and I will do some study before I start. Thanks again for all your knowledge.
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357 magnum, 686, crimp, hornady, model 52, nra, ppc, ruger

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