Revolver Reloading - Sticky Extraction?

[Hoogs]

G'Day all,

I'll start of by saying I am still relatively new to wheel guns.

I have been reloading for Bolt Action Rifles and Semi Auto Handguns for a little while now (still relatively inexperienced), and have been told that a good indication, with these firearms, of excessive pressure is "primer flattening".

In recent times, I have been told that primer flattening in revolvers is far less indicative of over pressure then in other firearms, and that a better indication is "sticky extraction"

My question is: What exactly constitutes sticky extraction? For example, a freshly resized and reloaded round fits my chamber well, but will fall straight out if I were to invert the gun with the cylinder open (obviously ). Once fired, and the case has expanded to better fit the chamber, I can invert the gun with cylinder open and the empty cases don't fall out. However it only takes very gentle pressure on the ejector rod to eject the spent cases.

I guess what I want to know is how much pressure on the ejector rod would constitute an over pressure load and a sticky extraction?


Thanks in advance for any advice

[HAWKEYE10]

I think with gentle pressure on the ejector rod you are OK. That is the reason they are there. If you are following a reloading manual that is a good thing to do. You might check your cylinders and make sure they are clean. If the revolver has had a lot of 38's fired in it then you start firing 357's the 357's might stick. The 38's will leave a ring of dirt at the end of the shell and the 357 shells being longer will when fired expand into that dirt and may cause the shell to stick. Don

[rsegars]

As suggested by Hawkeye, I not only keep the cylinders clean, I also make sure they are free of any oil. I have nothing to support this except my belief that when the cartridge expands to fill the cylinder I do not want it to move due to oil in the cylinders.I have had no problems with cartidge sticking.
The only time I have ever had a problem is one time I fired a primed cartridge that was not charged or loaded just to see what would happen. Since the cartridge did not expand the primer alone drove the cartridge back into the firing pin. It was a problem to free. Since then I want expansion without any movement of the cartridge to the rear of the cylinder.

[kenjen]

when you have to use the bench to push the ejecter rod because your hand hurts.

[Hoogs]

Thanks for your advice.... I am firing .460 S&W Magnum and after referring to several notable vaults of information(Lyman, Hornady, Speer, Barnes, etc...) I am trying to find the load that works for my gun.

With previous experience where flattened primers say "Back off", I am just trying to confirm that with revolvers, this is not necessarily the case... I understand the physics of the revolver discharge... That "upon ignition, the primer is blown outwards a little bit. Then the case is going to be slammed backwards into the recoil shield. When that happens, they are reseated and the force and speed in which they strike the recoil shield will flatten them" (Quote from colleague from previous forum post)

Unfortunately here in the land of Aus., we are left to experiment extensively as pretty much only 2 - 3 brands of powder are available (Winchester, ADI, and Alliant if you're lucky)...Which means a lot of what the manufacturers recommend become a "moot point"...

I'm just trying to work out the tell tales signs that my wheel gun is starting to say... "You're pushing the limits of our friendship"

[Hoogs]

p.s:

A session for me would never include in excess of 50 rounds...

After each session, great time an effort is spent on cleaning, neutralizing and lubricating my toy :-)

[dirty gary]

I tip my hat to anyone who fires 50 rds of 460. One cylinder was enough for me.

[MichiganScott]

FWIW, primer flattening is not necessarily indicative of high pressure in semiautos or bolt guns either. As I understand it, with properly headspaced ammo you are well past max by the time you get what we would consider "flat".

[Alk8944]

Hoogs,

I am sure everyone who answered this post meant well, but they are universally wrong. Don't know how it got off track to the .460!

Flattened primers are to a large degree more an indication of headspace than anything else. This is true of rifles as well as revolvers.

There really is no indicator of "Excess" pressure in revolvers. If you have gotten to the point that cases stick in a revolver you have exceeded permissable pressure by a factor of 3 or more in standard cartridges, and by 2 or more in magnums. All revolver cartridges should extract freely, even magnums, unless there is another issue such as the chambers are simply dirty, or there is a fouling ring from firing shorter cartdidges without properly cleaning the chambers. This happens mostly in .357 and .44 Magnums.

Think about it! Is there something magical about exceeding the nominal pressure limit of any cartridge by, say, 2000-5000 psi that would suddenly cause hard extraction? The obvious answer is no. Consider the .38 Special/.357 Magnum. The typical .357 Magnum load will extract freely. The .38 Spl. case is typically just as strong, identical except for length, within a particular manufacturers product line. If the .357 extracts freely at 35,000 psig, or 46,000 CUP by old standards, would you expect the .38 Spl. to begin sticking at 18,000 psig, or 25,000? Or would it be logical that the .38 Spl. wouldn't begin to stick until somewhere after the point where the .357 would also begin to stock, at something well in excess of the SAAMI MAP of 35,000 psig????????????

The same applies to other cartridges as well. Most factory ammunition is loaded quite close to the SAAMI MAP for the cartridge, based on the limitations, typically, of the firearm for which the cartridge was originally introduced. Any time you are seeing pressure signs on handloads which are more pronounced than with factory ammunition this is a good indication you have significantly exceeded the SAAMI MAP standard for that cartridge.

"Pressure signs" are, as a rule, a bunch of bunk. Some cartridges, even high-power calibers, will not show any "typical" pressure signs on the case until pressure is many thousands of PSI excessive. I have seen reports by well respected sources that they were aware of pressure tests with the .30-06 where the test round had exceeded, or was very close to 100,000 PSI, and both the primer appearance and extraction were perfectly normal! I hate to guess what pressure level would have been necessary before the primer flattened, or the case stuck.

Do you really want to depend on "hard extraction" as a sign that pressure limits have been exceeded in your 1915 .38 M&P??????????????? Or whatever standard caliber!

[Hoogs]

Thanks for your help

I think I threw the .460 into the thread (it's what I'm currently loading for)... What got me wondering about the signs of pressure was after loading up some 460 loads according exactly to the Hornady Reloading Manual:

Hornady Cases, Winchester Large Rifle Primers, Hornady 200gr FTX projectiles, Winchester W296/Hodgdon H110 powder, correct trim length and OAL...

I noticed that the primers were flattening out (VERY flat) a long way short of the recommended maximum load... In fact closer to the minimum recommended load.

I didn't know whether I should take this as a sign of excess pressure (I have heard winchester primers are very soft and prone to flattening)

Thanks again

[Alk8944]

Hoogs,

The .460 and .500 S&W cartridges are definitely a different proposition. They operate in the pressure range of high intensity rifle cartridges, something like 60,000psig. You probably will see primer flattening at these pressures, but extraction with straight bodied cartridge cases should still be relatively free.

You can reduce your loads by 5% weight and this will reduce velocity approximately the same amount, but pressure ca. 10%. You will be giving up less than 100 fps from theoretical maximum loads while reducing pressure a significant amount. This should relieve your extraction problems, and definitely lengthen the life of the revolver. If you stick with cast bullets the gun will last virtually forever, and there is no purpose you could put it to where you would ever miss the 100 fps.

If you then still have extraction problems this is the time to think about polishing the charge holes.

[OKFC05]

There really is no indicator of "Excess" pressure in revolvers.

As I tell beginning reloaders, the first reliable sure sign may be the topstrap hittiing the ceiling of the indoor range.
Reloading manuals are our friends!

[CWH44300]

Stick to the book, reading primers and measuring case heads died with my tong tools

[shovelwrench]

Whats your load and bullet weight and manufacture? I'm sure someone here is loading it in a .460 with H110 or 296.

On a side note, Federal and Winchester primers will flatten long before a CCI will...