Hi all,

I have been reloading pistol ammunition for a few years now. So, the time has come to move into rifle reloading. I am doing my homework and have a few questions about case prep to submit to the group...

1. My plan is to start with .223 Remington for my AR-15, then go to .30-06 for my Garand and my new hunting rifle, and finally to 8x57mm Mauser for my son's Yugo M48.

2. After looking at .223 dies in the catalogs, I am thinking that I need both a full size resizing die (esp for military brass) and a neck sizing die for commercial brass and to avoid overworking the brass in general. And what about the small base dies? All that I see seem to be full length dies. So, would a small base resizing die preclude the need for a standard full length die?

3. I am a big fan of crimping as a separate step in pistol ammo. But how about in rifles? Some references have reccommended the practice for semi-auto weapons like the AR-15... but what about the M1 Garand?

4. Bullet seating seems to be the "plain vanilla" die. Are there differences that I should look for?

5. Sizing lube: flat tray or spray? Kinds to avoid? (BTW, I am using a single stage press.)

6. How much is too much lube? And what is the best way to clean off lube?

7. Do you lube the entire length of the case for full length sizing? For neck sizing?

8. Why aren't there carbide rifle dies?

Please feel free to respond to whichever question(s) you like. I suspect that there are several others out there that have similar questions.

TIA
Dan

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Gun Control: POA=POI

[QUOTE from dazlin...

1. My plan is to start with .223 Remington for my AR-15, then go to .30-06 for my Garand and my new hunting rifle, and finally to 8x57mm Mauser for my son's Yugo M48.

2. After looking at .223 dies in the catalogs, I am thinking that I need both a full size resizing die (esp for military brass) and a neck sizing die for commercial brass and to avoid overworking the brass in general. And what about the small base dies? All that I see seem to be full length dies. So, would a small base resizing die preclude the need for a standard full length die?

GUY: for your AR-15, small base dies would be good, as well as all semi-auto rifles in general

3. I am a big fan of crimping as a separate step in pistol ammo. But how about in rifles? Some references have reccommended the practice for semi-auto weapons like the AR-15... but what about the M1 Garand?

GUY: separate crimping in rifles is also very desirable

4. Bullet seating seems to be the "plain vanilla" die. Are there differences that I should look for?

GUY: nothing special unless you want the more expensive match seating dies from Redding and RCBS with micrometer adjustments

5. Sizing lube: flat tray or spray? Kinds to avoid? (BTW, I am using a single stage press.)

GUY: RCBS pad works well, also I have been recently using Hornady One shot with success...spray well and wait at least one minute, I.e. follow instructions on the can.

6. How much is too much lube? And what is the best way to clean off lube?

GUY: I use cotton rag.

7. Do you lube the entire length of the case for full length sizing? For neck sizing?

GUY: full sizing, just roll them on the pad, for neck sizing, I dip the neck in mica powder so the inside and outside of neck get a powder layer. Don't lube the shoulder area.

8. Why aren't there carbide rifle dies?

GUY: I believe you would still need to lube. Redding may have one.

Re: Question #8
Carbide rifle dies would be crazy-expensive. You'll notice that the pistol dies have just a short ring of carbide right at the opening. This is plenty for full-length sizing of a straight or minimally-tapered case. The insert for a rifle case, most of which are more rapidly tapered, not to mention the neck & shoulder, would have to be much longer, requiring a great deal more carbide, and a great deal more fitting.

Larry

For a semi auto 223 (AR 15) you NEED to full size the brass every time and check for case length. Trim when needed. Neck sizing is only good for bolt action where you use the same brass in the SAME rifle.

There is debate on crimping but in a magazine feed gun I crimp with the LEE collet die (not to be confused with the LFCD) different entirely.

See your manuals on online websites like Hornady, RCBS etc.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Sir, taking your questions in order:

1. Sounds fine, though you might consider starting with the bolt guns rather than the semi-autos.

2. Yes, you need a full-length resizing dies, but not because of brass type. You need them for the semi-autos. You can also neck-size with them. Small-base dies are full-length resize dies that just size the brass smaller. In all likelihood you will not need small-base dies, even for the semi-autos.

3. If you choose to crimp, it's best done as a separate step. Bear in mind that not all rifle bullets are designed to be crimped. Generally, if the bullet has a cannelure, it can be crimped with no ill effects; if the bullet lacks a cannelure (such as many match bullets), it's best not to crimp. FWIW, I've loaded thousands of rounds for competition use in Garands and ARs and never crimped any of them. I've had no problems and fine accuracy.

4. Redding and Forster (and probably others as well) make micrometer seating dies. They're fairly expensive, but worth it IMHO for competition shooting. For most other purposes, they're probably an extravagance, but only you can decide that.

5. I personally dislike spray lubes, but some people swear by them. FWIW, I've used the RCBS lube and roll pad and Imperial sizing wax with equal success, and generally prefer the Imperial--there's less mess, and it doesn't require a pad. You just put it on with your fingers.

6. With any lube, too much will cause dents in the cases, usually in the shoulder; too little will cause cases to stick in the resizing die. You want a very light coating on the case body and a little inside the case mouth. I normally wipe the lube off with a cotton rag (old T-shirt, etc.) and then tumble the brass again.

7. See 6.

8. Carbide rifle dies do exist--Dillon makes them, and probably others as well. Trouble is, they're very expensive, and you still have to lube the cases. Not worth the money IMHO. One thing that is worth getting is a carbide neck expander ball. This reduces neck stretching as well as the need for lube inside the case mouth.

A few other things you might find useful to know:

Garands require powders and bullet weights within fairly narrow ranges. Generally, you'll want to stay with powders in the IMR 4895 to IMR 4064 range; faster powders won't get you the velocity you want, and slower powders can damage the op rod. Stick to bullet weights from 150 grains to 175 grains, and keep the velocities moderate. You want 2,700 to 2,800 fps at the muzzle for 150s and 2,500 to 2,600 for 168s and 175s.

AR's aren't nearly so fussy about powders. Bullet weights largely depend on the barrel's twist rate. 1:9 TR barrels typically will stabilize up to 69 grain bullets nicely; some will let you get away with 75s and 77s as well, though others won't. 1:12 barrels do not like heavy bullets--stick with 55s or lighter. 1:8 and faster twists are intended for heavy bullets such as 75s, 77s, 80s, etc.

For both semi-autos, full-length resize your brass every time, and also check its length, ideally with a case gauge or the like. I personally prefer to trim each time, too, but that's probably overkill for anything other than competition. Just don't let them get long. Also make sure every primer is seated below flush. High primers can cause slam-fires in semi-autos. I've seen it happen more than once.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

+1 on full-length resizing for any semi-auto. For the bolt action rifle, you should get both a neck sizing die and a full-length sizer.

-1 on "small base" sizing dies for all semi-autos. You only need to go with a small base die if you experience problems chambering rounds sized normally. IOW your chamber is unusually tight. Otherwise, you're just over-working your brass.

You need a case gauge for each caliber, both for the headspace dimension and for neck length. Wilsons are relatively inexpensive and work well unless you are trying to get the last degree of accuracy out of a rifle.

The X-Die from RCBS is a great sizing die because it stretches the brass much less than a conventional die. Trimming brass is a PITA.

Forster and Redding both make similar seating dies which replicate the rifle's chamber and have spring-loaded seating stems. Forster makes a "Bench Rest Seater" without a micrometer which costs a bit more than the Redding "Competition Seater". If you're only using one bullet, you don't need the micrometer. Otherwise, either the Forster or the Redding work equally well. However, if all you're doing is plinking or hunting, a seater from Hornady, RCBS, Redding, or Forster would be fine.

It helps to lubricate the inside of the case neck as well as the outside. Redding makes a neat "application media" which is little ceramic balls with graphite. Redding's Imperial Sizing Wax is great for the outside. Just clean off with a rag or lay a row down on an old towel and roll.

Crimping rifle rounds is the subject of some debate. I had never crimped any rifle cartridge when I started researching .223 for an AR-15. My conclusion after researching this is that crimping should be unnecessary. If neck tension doesn't hold the bullet in place, there are other problems that need to be addressed and crimping just masks them. Crimping a bullet without a cannelure will put a dent in your projectile. YMMV on crimping when there is a cannelure.

As far as the M-1, you can get an adjustable gas plug that will expand your ability to load a wider range of loads that would normally have the potential of damaging the op-rod and the gun in general. I use one and it even gives me the option of making my classic a single shot gun(one shot at a time using the en-bloc clip). Keeps my brass on the same property. Shoot, pull the bolt back, chamber a new round. Rinse and repeat.

Good luck on your new endeavor.

Hobie

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Laissez les bons temps roulez!

Loading for the AR-15 is very easy. I use cheap Lee full length sizing dies. I never had a need for small base dies or a crimp of any kind. I use Hornady One Shot spray lube exclusively with all rifle cartridges that I load. As long as you use enough and give it about a minute to dry you should never have any problems with it. Very rarely do I ever get dents in the shoulder.

You will also need to consider case trimming, which will probably be necessary even after the first firing. Again, I use the cheap Lee product and it works just fine, though it can be tedious when volume loading. If you're using military brass, you'll need to remove the crimp in the primer pocket. I simply chew it out with a countersink.

Dave Sinko

[QUOTE=dazlin;136506461]Hi all,

I have been reloading pistol ammunition for a few years now. So, the time has come to move into rifle reloading. I am doing my homework and have a few questions about case prep to submit to the group...

1. My plan is to start with .223 Remington for my AR-15, then go to .30-06 for my Garand and my new hunting rifle, and finally to 8x57mm Mauser for my son's Yugo M48. Loading for the Mauser will present no particular difficulties. For that matter neither will the AR-15 or M-1 Garand. Both will almost certainly have standard service chambers. Standard full-length dies from any major manufacturer will size the casings to allow them to be used easily in your rifles.

2. After looking at .223 dies in the catalogs, I am thinking that I need both a full size resizing die (esp for military brass) and a neck sizing die for commercial brass and to avoid overworking the brass in general. And what about the small base dies? All that I see seem to be full length dies. So, would a small base resizing die preclude the need for a standard full length die? Buy a die set. Don't fool around trying to buy a bit of this and a bit of that. RCBS and Redding are very fine die sets. Do not under any circumstances try to neck size brass for a semi-auto rifle. It will be fine for the Mauser. It is not at all a good idea for the AR-15 and even less a good idea for the M-1 Garand. Buy full-length die sets. Set them up according to the manufacturer's instructions. Forget internet websites, etc. Follow the instructions provided by the manufacturer. At the same time buy at least one up to date quality reloading book. Again, RCBS, Hornady, etc. are very good. Do not use small base dies for either the AR-15 or M-1 Garand. The M-1 Garand chamber is a typical service chamber. A SB die will only sized the brass more than is needed. For the AR-15, you will only need a SB die if the chamber is remarkably tight... like maybe a match chamber. For a typical service rifle type setup, standard dies will work very well.

3. I am a big fan of crimping as a separate step in pistol ammo. But how about in rifles? Some references have reccommended the practice for semi-auto weapons like the AR-15... but what about the M1 Garand? When it comes to crimping, use a taper crimp die. It will allow you to crimp the case properly without having to worry about if a bullet has a crimpling groove or not.

4. Bullet seating seems to be the "plain vanilla" die. Are there differences that I should look for? A standard seating die will do everything you need to do in seating the bullet. It simply is not that complicated. Once you settle on a load, you may even take a pair of pliers (horrors!!!) and "snug" the adjustment down so that

5. Sizing lube: flat tray or spray? Kinds to avoid? (BTW, I am using a single stage press.) I've used both methods of lubing cases. I much prefer the spray. RCBS spray case lube has worked well for me.

6. How much is too much lube? And what is the best way to clean off lube? A little bit of lube goes a long way. Using the spray I've found a good method is to lay the cases out in a row, spray them lightly, turn the a 1/2 turn and spray them lightly again. Once they are sized, etc., I put them in the tumbler and let it get the lube off.

7. Do you lube the entire length of the case for full length sizing? For neck sizing? For full-length sizing, lube the whole case. For neck sizing, you can put a little bit of lube on your finger tips and smear it onto the case.

8. Why aren't there carbide rifle dies? Carbide dies work well for straight sided cases as the carbide ring inside the case is relatively short. To produce a rifle die using carbide can be done, but it is much more expensive as rifle cases typically have bodies that taper slightly along with transitions of the shoulder and neck.

Please feel free to respond to whichever question(s) you like. I suspect that there are several others out there that have similar questions.

TIA
Dan

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<><

.223/5.56x45 and .308/7.62x51 are headspaced on the shoulder. Headspace is slightly different between SAAMI and NATO specifications, but not enough to matter. OAL should not exceed the maximum specification, since long cases can cause high pressure.

You need an headspace gauge to set the resizing die accurately - there's no better way to measure the effective length outside of a laboratory. The best gauges I've found are available from Dillon Precision for about $25.

Ammunition used in Garand type actions (M1, M14, M1A) should use NATO primers, such as CCI #41 (7.62x51) or CCI #34 (5.56x45). They are harder in order to resist slam-fire, and hotter for better ignition. The M1a and Mini-14 have a positive firing pin block, but why take chances?

I have had some problems with Dillon sizing/decapping dies. The decapping pin is large and ground square, and Remington brass has an ignition hole on the small size. This may cause a ridge to form inside the primer hole, which results in high primer seating. I have no problems with RCBS dies, which have a slightly smaller pin with a beveled tip.

Carbide dies in .223 and .308 are available from Dillon for about $130. They are recommended for high-volume reloading (e.g., LE armories) and are less likely to scratch the brass (cosmetic). For now, I probably won't shoot more than 100 rounds of .308/month, and steel dies seem to work fine. They're opening a 300 meter range 12 miles from me, so that might change. For pistol ammunition, I wouldn't consider anything other than carbide, since it costs only $10 more than steel.

All military and (so far) all commercial .223 and .308 ammunition I've used have crimped primers, so you can't decap and cap in the same operation. The fastest and most accurate way to remove the crimp is by swaging the pocket ($100 from Dillon).

Respectfully, Neuman had a little dyslexia with the CCI "military" primers. #34 for 7.62 Nato and #41 for 5.56.

For any rifle reloading, you should make sure that the bullet is seated deep enough so that it is not sitting in the lands (beginning of the rifling). You can do this with smoke, a magic marker or Hornady's COAL gauge. With an AR15 or an M1 Garrand, it is very unlikely that you can seat a bullet so that it hits the lands but still fits in the magazine. Especially the M1. However, unlikely is not impossible and having the bullet seated in the lands instead of jumping a bit (typically 0.01-0.03" for bolt rifles and 0.03-0.05" for semi-autos) can cause a spike in chamber pressure.

For most hand loaders, a Wilson case gauge probably is sufficient for checking the headspace dimension of your cartridges. Case length too.

If you are going for maximum accuracy and case life, then resizing just enough to get the case to fit in YOUR chamber may be worthwhile. With a bolt-action rifle, you don't really need a gauge for the headspace dimension - you just resize long, try to chamber the case and then bump the shoulder a touch more until you can chamber the case OK. The same can be done with an AR-15 or M1, but you really need to disassemble the bolt to do it right for either rifle.

If you want fancier, RCBS makes a neat gauge that handles both COAL and headspace dimension. I'm not convinced that the COAL part works perfectly with all bullets (ogives vary) but it's a nice package.

Hornady (formerly Stony Point) makes a COAL gauge which uses your actual bullet to get a measurement. They also make a "headspace" gauge. The later should be called a "bump gauge" like Sinclair calls their version. Finally, both Hornady and Sinclair make "bullet comparator" measurement tools which go off the bullet's ogive where it would hit the lands instead of COAL which is less consistent. I like the Sinclair bump gauge and bullet comparator because the inserts are steel instead of whatever softer metal (cast aluminum?) Hornady uses. YMMV

Sorry I got carried away - I like tools!

You may or may not need a small base die. It's better if you can get by without one because they size the body and base smaller than the standard die which will work the brass a little more and may reduce case life.

If you have a tight chamber you might need one if you have issues chambering or extracting. The chamber on my MP-15 is a little too tight so I needed one. It would chamber and extract the fired round fine, required a come-along to extract a live round. No issues after getting the small base die. I've read a few M&Ps have tight chambers, but most are OK.

Thanks everyone! Fantastic information!

Sounds like I won't need the small base dies unless my AR is tighter than I think it is.

Taper crimping sounds like the best option if any crimping is used. I'm not particularly thrilled with having two different crimping dies... but I like tools too.

I've never been impressed with case gauges for pistol ammo. The gauges I have may so no go, but the gun says good to go. So I usually just use the barrel to check case size. However, I'm willing to keep an open mind for rifle reloading. The Wilson case gauge also sounds like a good investment. I'll check it out.

Decapping is a step that I will have to do separately for crimped cases. I have a universal decapping tool for that and it works well with 30-06 military brass on the 1st reloading. So I also plan on using it for my .223/5.56 military brass. After that it is decap and size in one step.

I have looked at the Dillon decrimping tool and drooled over it. Maybe as more military surplus comes on the market it will be a good investment. Until then I'll try some less expensive alternatives.

My M1 was a big investment several years ago from the estate of a collector in the mid-west (1943 Springfield). I don't plan on doing anything to overstress it. Mid-range loads are my goal - good cycling, reasonable mv, 4895 and 150 gr bullets. My .30-06 Savage will meet all other requirements. Nor do I anticipate anything too hot for my son's M48.

I noticed that Lee makes a .233/5.56 3-die set with a full length resizer, bullet seater, and factory crimp die for a reasonable price. Anyone have experience with that? Though the RCBS X-dies do sound intriguing...

Again, thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge. It is one of the things that makes this forum such a great place.

Dan

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Gun Control: POA=POI

Yes, I have the Lee Dies in 223 and every other handgun and 30-06, 30 Carbine. They work just fine. I full size for the AR and neck size for Savage Bolt and use the Colet crimp die (lightly)

The Wilson case gauges are precision hunks of steel, Well worth the small cost. Excellent way to measure your brass.

The RCBS de crimping die kit is a easy and inexpensive way to deal with military crimped brass. I hate doing it so just bought a bunch of already decrimped LC brass.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Just received the Dillon "Blue Press" and they do offer the Redding carbide die for the 223/5.56mm. They say that it does require that the cases be lubed. I use the Imperial sizing wax and much prefer it over the typical case lube/pad. Wipes off easily with a shop rag. I do my reloading of the 2223/5.56mm in batches. Maybe one night will swage primer pockets on new brass. Next one will be uniform the primer pocket, the one after that will be uniforming the flash holes. Lastly will
size then prime, then reload. The first three operations need only be done once, but do clean all primer pockets prior to seating primers. I have a few Rubbermaid tubs that the brass goes in after each operation. I suggest that you buy Rubbermaid as the SWMBO will raise
heck if you snag her Tupperware. You do not want to go there. Frank