After weeks of developing the best load for my 625 .45acp, I began working on loads today for the my new R8.

I tested 3 loads this morning. Berry's 125 JFP over 3.5 gr CLays, 3.0 and 2.6 grains. 3 was good, 2.6 was a tad light so I opted to try 2.8 grains. Messed up and loaded 250 rounds and went to shot steel. Most shot well, but occasionaly there was a weak round. Each time I stopped and checked clear and it was always clear. We decided it was the powder sliding forward in the long case. About the 10th cylinder full I said it was getting scary, when I heard another pfff. My brain kicked in and I stopped before firing the next shot. Sure enough I had a bullet lodged midway down the tube. !!!!!!!!!!!!???????????!!!!!!

So, disaster avoided, and back to the drawing board for a new load. I have CLays, Universal and Titegroup on hand. a BUNCH of 125 gr Berry's, and CCI primers. Any ideas?

I want light but safe loads for Steel Challenge.

My 625 JM loved 3.9 grains of Clays under A 200 gr, LRN, however this is a new beast and nearly half the weight.

Glad you caught it. I know some powders are sensitive to light loads in relation to case position, I wonder If clays is one of them. What brass are you using, 38 special? Even then the listen min is still 2.5gr. Switch to short colt and the listed min goes down to 1.8gr but that's a 135gr bullet. These are for lead but lead and plated can generally be interchanged.

I'm using .38 special Brass, Berry's Plated 125 gr FP.

My test loads at 3.5 and 3 grains of Clays did not seem to produce this problem. 2.6 did, so I bumped to 2.8 and it actually got worse. 2 out of a cylinder of 8 would go off light, I could see most of them head down range, luckily I caught this one that didn't.

I'm loading with a DIllon SDB so maybe the metering of the Clay's is not close enough to go that low on volume.????

The other option is seating the bullet a tad deeper? I'll have to look back at my notes to see how deep I went today, although I do know I could go quite a bit deeper. My crimp is good and tight, I learned that with the light load .45acp I was doing.

"Kabooms" are for Glock guys and are caused by double charges. Try loading the light loads with titegroup as it is designed to be less sensitive to case position, I used it in 44mag cases.

Why agonize over .5 (1/2) gr of powder?

Why not just bump it up to 3.5 of Clays? The Max per Hodgdon for lead and their data is usually pretty anemic. For the FMJ XTP its 3.9 grs.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I'm not agonizing over it, just trying to make it as light as possible and still be consistent/accurate, and safe.

I'm not a professional shooter, however even I know if I shoot 39 strings of fire minimum 5 shots each and a lighter load can gain me (or reduce time) half a second per string (.01 second per shot) it will reduce time by a minimum of 19.5 seconds over the whole match. It adds up quick.

This is what makes the game fun to me, figuring out how to gleen all I can to improve.

Poor choice of a word But you will worry about it which will affect you shooting. Why chance a squib? Real underpowered loads are not usually real accurate.

A related story.

A guy at my range was doing almost the exact same thing. Shooting under min loads of 38 special with HP 38. He was practicing for a shoot. His gun was filthy, flithy dirty as HP 38 is real sooty at low levels. You could see the bullet barely make it to the target. I asked him why he was shooting such low power loads. He replies, "use less powder save money"

Couple minutes later he comes up and asks me if I have a dowel as he stuck a bullet Yes, I have one.

This guy makes more money than some third world nations

I would still kick it up a notch. I also have a R8 327and 627 PC

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Still Running Against the Wind

Glad to hear you caught it before anything bad happened.

I'm on the Titegroup bandwagon. I use that at first for .45acp, but now use it for all my handguns.

Titegroup is a fast powder that was designed to be efficient. A little goes a long way. It's also reliable regardless of case position...so with a small charge and laying on it's side....it'll go off reliably.

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USPSA TY-59035
GSSF

Any experience with Trail Boss and jacketed bullets?

I use TiteGroup as my go to powder in the 45ACP, 40, and 9mm. I use TrailBoss in most of my revolver loads as it fills up the case and burns clean and is not very position sensitive. I've even used TrailBoss in my 10mm loads for a light load that ejects the brass at one's feet. I'd try 3.5 to 4.0 grains of either for your application and forget about squib loads. Bob!

I just loaded up some 3.5 Titegroup and a few again with the Clays set at 3.3 grains.

I may pick up some Trail Boss at the range in a few minutes when I go test these loads, it may be the answer in the end all though more expensive.

I was using Titegroup a lot in my .45acp loads for the 625 JM. In the end the Clays seemed to burn cleaner )at least with the balck bullets)

So I was running 3.9 grains of Clays under a 200 gr LRN, I'm going to find a load that feels about the same so it won't be too confusing switching from the 625 to the R8 other than learning to count to 8. LOL

[You mentioned competition in an earlier post, what sort of competition? Trail Boss does not generate very high velocities with jacketed or plated bullets. I also think that working on managing recoil properly and preparing another shot the moment the last one has broke is going to save a lot more time than trying to skimp on a marginal amount of powder. There are guys with blinding fast split times shooting things much beefier than 38 Special.

Oh I agree, but a little less recoil can't hurt. LOL I have also discovered since a 4 level fusion neck surgery this past December, I am more recoil sensitive than I care to be. Too much of it gives me a headache now. (What a wimp right?)

I'm shooting mostly Steel Challenge, so high velocity is not needed. "Reduced" recoil is a nice bonus, however you are correct, proper management is a must. I'll never be a "Jerry Miculek", but this is all fun, even the reloading part. Heck I could probably save some money and time and just order reloaded HBWC's from Precision Delta like one of my buddies does, but then I wouldn't get to spend hours testing loads and reloading.

Did you chronograph your loads before firing? A chronograph is an essential tool for a reloader. Also when developoing a new load I load 10 rounds (5 for chrono & 5 for group size) before proceding to load a batch.
I have found that the plated bullets provide ca. 10 to 20% lower velocity than comparable weight lead bullets.
In 38 Special with lead or plated bullets I use Trail Boss powder which fills the case more completely (easy to visually inspect powder drop) and also avoids the possibility of a double charge.. Clays is OK in 45ACP but I would not use it in 38 Special.

Tsquared, no I have not chronographed the loads, I use a freind's chrono when I can.

I liked the 3.5 grains of Titegroup yesterday, very accurate , very mild recoil.

Curiosity got me though and I picked up some Trail Boss on the way home. I have loaded up some test rounds to try this morning.

Good thing I work all weekend or I'd be able to spend some MORE money. LOL

Hold your breath and don't cough or sneeze when loading Trail Boss, it will all float away!

It's good with milk though.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Clays is very easy to ignite. It is my go-to powder for creating plinkers with rifle cartridges. And you can visually spot a double-charge with Clays. Not so with TiteGroup.
Just thinking out loud, but would switching to a CCI350 primer help? They are considerably hotter than a regular primer and may fix your ignition problem.

Before I forget to thank you guys, thank you for the help.

Now that I have tried the Trail Boss I'm wondering what the heck took me so long???? I love this stuff.

I loaded up some test batches this morning. Still using the Berry's 125 grain JFP. I used 3 grains, 3.5 and 4.0...

All 3 loads were plenty accurate, with the 4.0 maybe having a slight edge. All three were very manageable on recoil with the 4.0 requiring a tad more grip. The 3.0 was a dream, and 3.5 was right where you would expect it...(in the middle)

No chrono so not sure of velocities. Hodgdon's data says 3.0 under a 125LRNFP with COL of 1.445 produces 753fps.

Not sure what their test bullets length is, however I set my 125JFP a little deeper to aid in reducing space COL 1.414. With my bullet set there, 70% of volume is right at 3.5 grains , and 3 grains is about 60%.

I need to run them on a Chronograph but I think I'm going to end up somewhere betwee 3 and 3.5 for what I want. What do you guys think?

The beauty of Trail Boss is you can't blow up your gun (or self) just don't compress it.

Read the first part of this PDF, This applies to any and all cartridges so you do not even need load data.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20B...oads%20R&P.pdf

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Still Running Against the Wind

Trail boss was developed for cowboy shooters, the typical 1 pound container only holds 9oz. I shot cowboy matches with it a few years ago and was using 4g in 44mag cases in 4 5/8" barrels for 650 fps on steel targets. It's all about recoil and shot recovery. Empty 4 guns in about 20sec. on target. Titegroup is a high energy density powder, you can feel the excess heat it generates in your barrel as you shoot it compared to most other powder, Trail boss is just the opposite, kinda like a corvette and a little school bus. Now that I shoot bullseye Titegroup is an "in" powder.

Yes, I read that . That is why I was talking about the volume at 70% I'm at 3.5 grains.

I decided to spit it and loaded some with 3.3 grains. I doubt I will notice a whole lot of difference, but it will make me feel more comfortable than using the 3 grains and having any lighter loads appear.

What weight bullet was that with ? Sounds like fun.

One reason I won't shoot bunnyfart loads in a revolver. If I can't tell 100% it's a squib, then it's going to end up a bad day. That bullet can't even be making 700fps.

Just some unsolicited recommendation. When you are done with the Berrys, perhaps go with some LSWC in 158 gr and use HP 38 or Bullseye. If you don't want to shoot lead than get some PD FMJ they are less the Berrys Plated and a lot better bullet. I used to shoot Berrys untill they jacked their prices to more than "real" FMJ projectiles. JMHO

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Still Running Against the Wind

I used 180g and 200g, the lightest the local caster had on the shelf when I stopped by for more. The guys using 38/357's were using 105g bullets with even less powder, they had issues with 231 and really light loads misfiring 3g and under. Fun to see how light you can load before the bullets start sticking in the barrel. Chrono'ed some bullets at about 350fps of so. Even at 650 you can almost see them in flight.

Nice thing about bunny fart loads is they're so weak they tend not to damage anything when they run into each other. 700fps is a hot load. They don't lead much either, you can shoot thousands of rounds with very little leading.

Really? At 700fps, the bullet is almost visible to the naked eye on a good day. That is below min PF for most gun games & my personal min. for a revolver in ANY caliber. Good luck!

That was a few years ago now. The joke was if the loads you just shot in the last stage had any powder in them or were they just primers, I never loaded as light as some. Got tired of standing around for hours waiting to shoot for a total of a couple mins. per match and moved on.