would you agree

[dryfarmer]

As far as reloading goes am I right in thinking that bullet weight is what is important not bullet type, same load for Wade cutter as a Full metal jacket round nose as long as they are the same weight.
I am new to shooting pistols but what is the purpose of a wade cutter bullet
was there a bullet designed just for punching holes in paper, had there been a issue with some bullets not penetrating the target completely, inquiring minds need to know these things.

[Rule3]

I don't understand your question?

Everything is important. Yes, the weight of a bullet is important but different bullets of the same weight with different profiles have different seating depths.

Wad Cutters and Semi wadcutters "punch" a cleaner hole in paper so when you are close to a ring on a bullseye target you can score it correctly. For general range shooting good old round nose is close enough for me.

[mtgianni]

Bearing surface has a lot to do with it. Not just a similar weight but how much of that weight is supported or bearing [friction causing and dragging ] in the barrel.

[stick_man]

As indicated by others, all aspects of a bullet are important and need to be considered when reloading. Small variations in bullet weight are usually no big deal, depending on caliber and load. The seating depth is something that must not be overlooked as a bullet seated too deeply will produce extreme pressure changes.

A good example of bullet weight differences comes from comparing two premium rifle bullets... the Nosler Partition and the Barnes TSX. For a given weight, the Barnes bullet will be longer than the Nosler. If you seat both to the same cartridge overall length, there will be higher pressures with the cartridge loaded with Barnes. They strongly recommend NOT using the same load data for both.

[dryfarmer]

So your saying that a 140 gr round nose recipe can't be automatically approved for a say 140 gr hollow point, I can see where different profile bullets would have different friction or drag in the barrel and exiting the shell casing. What made me ask was The Unique powder recipes don't list round nose bullet per say but they do list bullets of the same weight in wade cutter and hollow points, I was thinking if it was good for a 140 gr HP it would be good for a 140 gr RN. Is that thinking safe?

[Rule3]

Originally Posted by dryfarmer

So your saying that a 140 gr round nose recipe can't be automatically approved for a say 140 gr hollow point, I can see where different profile bullets would have different friction or drag in the barrel and exiting the shell casing. What made me ask was The Unique powder recipes don't list round nose bullet per say but they do list bullets of the same weight in wade cutter and hollow points, I was thinking if it was good for a 140 gr HP it would be good for a 140 gr RN. Is that thinking safe?

Yes, they can. Speer Manual groups their bullets (of same weight) together and the powder charge is the same BUT the big difference is the OAL or seating depth.

Now this is within the same brand and both are FMJ

[Coug76]

A lead bullet will have a different level of friction in the barrel than would a jacketed bullet. The soft lead offers less resistance than the harder copper, gilding metal, or brass jackets. Load data can vary notably.

Hastily spouted for your befuddlement

[k22fan]

Originally Posted by dryfarmer

[...] was there a bullet designed just for punching holes in paper, had there been a issue with some bullets not penetrating the target completely, [...]

You've gotten all good information so far. I'm wondering if you are familiar with full wadcutter bullets as opposed to the more commonly used simi-wadcutters. Wadcutters are usually seated flush with the case mouth and have no nose protruding out of the case. They were designed specifically for punching round holes is paper. Wadcutters are most often fired in revolvers. I'm not sure what kind of target you are asking about bullets not penetrating through. I don't think a bullet can be pushed through the friction in a bore and still exit without enough velocity to penetrate paper or cardboard targets. If you can figure out a way to do that, it has interesting potential for recovering our cast bullets to recast the lead. We'd just have to pluck our bullets out of the paper after they skid to a stop on their lube grooves.

[venomballistics]

nope ... your not right in treating them as completely equal.
looking at 44 magnum if we start with a good stiff load for a 200G hollow point and apply it to a 200 grain wad cutter we find the wad cutter either wont fit at all and if it does, we find our lives flashing before our eyes and our gun parts embedded in the surrounding environment.
if we look at say .. a 240G SWC versus a 240G JHP .. there is a remaining difference, however it will not be as extreme as the WC / HP scenario.
Randomly swapping slugs is bad juju.

[Steve C]

Bullet weight is the most important factor in selecting data and load. IF you follow normal reloading procedures in load development you can use data for the same bullet weight safely even with bullets of different types. That is using a start load (10% reduction from maximum) and incrementally work up with successively heavier loading while looking for any signs of excessive pressure but never exceeding the maximum load published.

[Skip Sackett]

I would agree if the concept wasn't wrong!

No, use the data for the type of bullet you are going to use. There are a lot of factors, none can be ignored nor assumed away.

First thing though, get a manual and read the front of it. When you get done, do that again and after that.............one or two more times. Do all of that before you make one cartridge.

[Skip Sackett]

Steve is 10% right. The MOST important thing about loading data is bullet seating depth, um, period. Weights come into play after that. All bullets are not created equal even if they are the same weight.
After seating depth, then comes bearing surface and then comes weight.

Hope that helps.

[dryfarmer]

isn't seating depth determined by OAL of the loaded shell,I didn't think it was anything I had control over

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by dryfarmer

isn't seating depth determined by OAL of the loaded shell,I didn't think it was anything I had control over

You do to a point. The bullet/OAL must fit the gun/chamber/magazine. I'll disagree a bit on OAL being THE most important thing, sort of. Bullet wt controls the powder charge & OAL can be manipulated. No OAL is going to make a heavy for caliber bullet safe w/ too heavy a charge.
AS noted, all bullets are not the same, they are NOT plug & play at anything but starting load levels. Just starting out, use components as closley as poosible to your data & don't deviate. After you learn how OAL, bullet wt & powder charge relate, then you can venture off on your oen using off the book components.

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted by dryfarmer

isn't seating depth determined by OAL of the loaded shell,I didn't think it was anything I had control over

The OAL listed in the load data is only valid for that exact bullet in the same case they used. Bullets without a cannelure can be seated where you find the best accuracy or to fit in the magazine. Lead bullets should be seated to the crimp groove and in that case you really have no control over the OAL because the seating depth is set by the bullet manufacturer.

Again, the OAL listed in load data and manuals is only valid for the exact bullet and case listed in the data.

[Titegroups]

Best thing you can do is follow the published data for the bullet you're using until you understand the concepts better. Pressure is due to multiple factors and is complex enough that only actual testing will result in good numbers.

[David LaPell]

Well, bullet weight is not always the key, for example in the .357 or .38-44 the #358156 hollowpoint which weighs about 150-152 grains has been known to be a better performer on game than say the 170 grain #358429. Each bullet has its purpose, for instance the 170 grain #358429 is good on game as well and better than the box of 100 170 grain .358 FMJ's I have. You need to know what bullet you want to do the task at hand, but you need to also know what each was designed for.

The Anatomy of a Bullet - Gun News at Guns.com

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD

Lead bullets should be seated to the crimp groove and in that case you really have no control over the OAL because the seating depth is set by the bullet manufacturer.

Arch is 100% right until you change bullet profiles. The same weight bullet can be longer or shorter than another, like the one that is in the data. If the bullet is LONGER, of the same weight, seating to the same OAL makes the bullet base sit more in the case which is seating depth.

This is THE reason to make sure that you measure your bullets for comparison.

Those of you that have to buy bullets, from one manufacturer to another, even if they are the same weight, can be just a tad different in OAL, then, when seated to the same COAL, your pressure can change drastically.

The amount of bullet in a STRAIGHT WALLED PISTOL CASE is the #1 factor, right after weight, in increasing pressure in your cartridge.


The old timers, Phil Sharpe & Elmer Keith understood this. That is the reason that they designed their bullets like they did, more outside the case than inside.........

FWIW

[358156hp]

Simply put, wadcutters take up more space in the case due to their being seated almost completely inside it. So a 140 gr wadcutter will have perhaps only 1/2 the free space in a 38 spl case, as opposed to a 140 gr semi-wadcutter. This free space is important because the more free space in the case, the lower your chamber pressure will be with the exact same powder charge. It is possible to dangerously overcharge a 38 spl case (for example) by choosing a top end load for a 140 gr semiwadcutter, but seating a full wadcutter in it's place. Your chamber pressures will skyrocket. Depending on the load you choose, you may not even be able to fully seat the wadcutter because it will seriously compress the powder charge. So all loads must be carefully matched to the bullet type.

To further confound things, you mentioned jacketed bullets in your original post, so I offer this. You can start your load development for cast bullets with jacketed bullet data, but you should not do vice-versa. Jacketed bullets are harder, and offer more resistance (drag) as they travel the length of the barrel. A cast 158 gr bullet in a 38 spl can be safely fired with a minimal powder charge of, say 2.7 grains of Bullseye. However, a jacketed bullet of the same weight could stick in the bore because of the increased resistance of the copper bullet jacket. So it is important the make certain you are using the appropriate data for your caliber, powder type, bullet style, bullet construction, and bullet weight.

I've been smacked around on boards before for telling people to buy 2-3 different CURRENT reloading manuals, and tear out the loading data pages, reading only the first 2/3 of the book. This is truly the most important part of the book, and contains all the critical technical information you need to know before reloading. It's really pretty good advice... perhaps "tear out the data" could be worded a little more diplomatically, but it does get the idea across. This is information you will never get by reading a data chart online. For some reason, people will spend hundreds of dollars on reloading equipment, but not buy books... curious...

[dryfarmer]

a rifle case likes to be 90% full or better, does the same hold true for pistol cases? A straight wall pistol case (357) loaded with a smooth sided bullet like a jacketed round nose, how deep should the bullet be seated, the books like Hornady don't list a OAL fore each load, just one at the start of the chapter, I see some of the powder sites do list a OAL for each load and bullet combination but only changes when the bullet weight changes and then not by much. Finding a load for the Berry plated round nose is like finding a needle in a hay stack, which is why I started this thread to see if I could make some subsitutions for bullets of the same weight and I see now that answer is yes and no. I would guess that I could subsitute any of the three Berry 158 gr bullets HP,FP,RN and be alright with the same OAL.
Thanks for the info it has been very helpful.

[hawgleg]

1-Type of bullet lead,plated or FMJ.
1a- Style of bullet RN,HP, FP, SWC...
2- Length and bearing surface of bullet as to how I set col.
3- Bullet weight

Lead needs the least powder, plated mid range, FMJ needs the most powder. When I load Berry's plated bullet I use mid to upper lead load data or low to mid FMJ load data. Since you have no crip groove with the Berry's set them side by side and see how close they are on length and ogive.

I would think the three Berry's you listed will be fairly close to one another and will be OK using the same powder charges. Tell us what you're trying to load, caliber, powder and bullet type are a help.

In revolver loads I very seldem use half the case with powder. It really depends on the type of powder and what I'm loading. If you find a load listed with a COL and use that bullet remember if if you seat it deeper the pressure will go up. If you are just a tad off it should be no big deal, but say the col is 1.45 and you seat the col to 1.40 you drop the powder charge .1 grain and you should be ok.