At the club the top shooter uses 148 hollow base WC in his 686 6" and snubbie with 2.7 of Bullseye. Nice mild load, very accurate.

I don't like how BE loads in my Lee Loadmaster, it can at times come up .1 or .2 short. Not a big deal in my 9mm as I"m not at min loadings and it works fine even at 3.7 (ideal is 4.0 in that with 124 montana gold JHP).

I have W231 and TG to work with. I hear TG doesn't play well with lead, but one guy uses 3.5 behind the 148 DEWC with good results.

I would like to use W231 but the lowest I've found in formulas is 3.5gr yet many shoot 3.0. I made up some loads in 3.0, 3.2 and 3.5. The 3.0 is the most accurate, but even it has a lot more recoil the the 2.7 of bullseye.

Now my questions...new to loading 38 so my first would be on crimping. As light as possible is what I seem to be hearing, at least in this application. I'm using a lee factory crimp die and have it backed off from their rec starting point, can likely back it off a bit more based on comparing my crimp the 'borrowed' ammo (the be 2.7 loads)

How low can you go on powder in a revolver?

Any suggested loads for accuracy from the snubbie?

(As a point of reference tests at the indoor range last night had me doing 2.5" groups at 8 yards (25'), SA, unsupported, and ~5" DA at 16 yards (50') with the 3.0 of W231.)

I use W231 exclusively for all my .38 loads. For 148gr WC I use 2.9/3.0 gr and see no need to go any higher (I use Hornady WC). For 158gr LRN (Hornady) I use 3.5/3.6 gr W231. I crimp the WC very lightly, the brass will last longer and there's no need for anything more. On the 158gr I crimp a little tighter but nothing excessive. A friend and I reload and switch frequently, hence I have 2 separate (seating and crimping) dies for each load.

Data for Speer 148gr HBWC's. Any of this data will work in your snub and all should be accurate as the hollow base wad cutters are very accurate bullets. Seat the bullet flush and apply a light roll crimp or taper crimp.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resi...GveS4phAt6c_K4

Thanks, but I'm using mastercast DEWC - double ended wad cutters, not the hollow base, so they get placed about .12 above the case, where the crimp groove is.
I went with these are the're less 'delicate' so to speak and because they protrude they're a bit easier to get in with a speedloader.

I shoot bullseye outdoors, 50yds, I use both bullseye and titegroup as everyone does with lead. Anywhere from 2.5 to 3.5 g. are the common charges, you'll have to find what works best in your gun because what works in one doesn't always work in others, most use a light to medium crimp. Be aware the Lee FCD can swage your bullets down. There really is no min. load, once you get down too low you'll see a lot of unburnt powder and your bullets may tumble at longer ranges from lack of spin. If shooting longer ranges (50yds) the button nose WC have a better B.C. than plain DEWC. If shooting a gun with large throats the HBWC will help bit you'll need to keep the velocity down.

When I was reloading DEWC I found 3.2gr of W231 worked well for me but you can push these harder than HBWC. If you want something even easier with speedloaders try some 158 gr LRN as I mentioned earlier.

I've used both 2.8 gr Bullseye and 3.2 gr W231 + the HBWC, both work well. I've settled on 2.8 gr Bullseye for my favorite target load. I think it meters a little better than W231 in my Hornady LNL.

Titegroup burns HOT and melts the bullets. I got worse leading than with Bullseye or W231. I think I had the least leading problem with W231.

My go-to .38 special load is 4.0 grains of W231 (or HP38) and a 158gr SWC but I have also used DEWCs in the past with 3.2gr and they were very mild and very accurate. The W231/HP38 is some of the cleanest burning powder I have ever seen with lead projectiles in the .38 - my guns never show signs of leading. I usually crimp the SWCs just enough to show a slight curve.

I like 148 grain DEWC with 2.7 bullseye. mine have a crimp groove at about .100 in from each end.
I was told if there is a crimp groove to use it.
I use a light crimp, ugly side of the lead out.
bullseye has a narrow window, I don't think I would go lower than 2.7
I use a hornady single stage powder drop, I don't like the progressive style of powder drop for bullseye.
As far as accuracy, my groups are 2 1/2" at 20ft SA . similar to yours. but the same as any of my other 148 grain reloads.
148 DEWC 2.7 BE is my second favorite load after my 158 lswc load - snubby or not.

shoot often, take lots of notes.

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My favorite 148gr DEWC load is made with 3.2gr W231/HP-38. It's extremely accurate in all my 38/357 revolvers regardless of barrel length.

I also load a lot of 148gr WC ammo with 3.5gr W231 when shooting longer distances especially in my .357 Magnum revolvers.

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There is some good advice here. One caution when using hollow base wadcutters, is if you load them too hot, the skirt can separate from the bullet upon firing. Keep them loaded light

Shot two rounds of PPC yesterday with 3.0 W231/ 148 DEWC and while I was shooting a bit right of center the groupings weren't too bad (for newbie revolver shooter). Scores of 452 and 472. Did a practice match with my 9 and shot s 488 (below my avg just a bit) so I think I did darned good with a snubbie and no trigger time (compared to my 2000 rounds XDm9 5.25 comp!).

Friend encouraged me to shoot on last match and I was out of ammo, he gave me 60 rounds of the 2.7 BE / 148 HBWC and I shot a 310...my worst showing ever, and by a lot too.

Talked with the guy that runs the snubbie 'sub' class and he's shooting something light (forget what he told me it was) but he's chono'd it at 450 FPS!

Excellent info. Does anybody have any clarifications for use only in the snubs?

I never bothered to make loads specially for a snub. If they work well in a long barreled revolver, they will work well in a snub. You will just get less velocity.

Yea and no.
Longer barrels allow more time for the powder to burn and have more time to 'twist' the bullet and being in the barrel longer recoil can affect flight times. I know with my 9 lower charges mean slower bullets and they impact higher - because of the recoil happening while they're still in the barrel.

So faster powder and perhaps even hotter loads should work better in a snubby than say, a 8" or 6" barreled revolver.

If your trying to drop/penetrate a target the all out velocity is a good thing, but if you after accuracy and paper targets then velocity may not be the goal (unless long ranges are needed).

Until the bullets stick in the barrel.

This is not a problem with lead bullets as they are easy to remove, but stuck jacketed bullets are a b---ch to get out.

I suggest you use published minimum charges until you are comfortable with your loads and only use greatly reduced loads for slow fire shooting.

I never do rapid fire shooting with any load that I have not chronographed at a safe margin above the speed where they begin to stick in the barrel,

The orginal 2.7 Bullseye load was used in slow fire bullsye competition. Goes like this:

Bang, see hole in target; Bang, see hole in target; and so on.
If a bullet gets stuck under these conditions you will know it before you send another one down the barrel.

Very light loads in modern timed shooting is like:

Buzz, bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang, Stop. Look, Oops only five holes, Oops, ringed barrel.

Twist rate has nothing to do with barrel length. The twist is mechanically imposed on the bullet as soon as it engages the rifling.

The stability of the bullet is determined by a combination of bullet's length, twist rate and velocity. The proper way to look at stability is "spin rate", in RPM's rather than "twist rate" in inches per turn.

Bullet RPM Calculator — Spin & Stability within AccurateShooter.com

A bullet leaving a barrel rifled at 1:18.75 at 700fps will be spinning at 26880 rpm.

At 1800fps it will be spinning at 69120 rpm. At either speed it is still rotating at 1 full rotation per every 18.75 inches of travel.

Yea, I know, it makes your head hurt...

So then every bullet (jacketed, lead etc) grabs the rifling the same, regardless of it being a 2" barrel or a 20" one?

It may be so...i'm just used to trying to get traction in a car/motorcycle and so many variables come into play (tire material, contact patch, surface, temperatures, moisture, torque, weight, etc) that my mind is having a hard time thinking that you'll get 'full twist' out of a 2" barrel vs a 6" one. You won't get the same velocity, and does the bullet need time to stabilize or conform to the barrel? Will powder burning outside the barrel destabilze the bullet?

Yes. The twist rate is a mechanical constant.

The rifling twist is engraved in the barrel and never changes. The bullet is engraved by the rifling as it enters the barrel and all the twist it will ever have is imparted as the bullet is fully engraved.

The only exception is some very soft lead bullets being pushed at high velocity will sometimes travel a very short distance (only a fraction of the bullet length) straight into the rifling at the beginning, but will be fully engraved and following the twist of the lands and grooves by the time the bullet is in the barrel. Don't even concern yourself with that if using light loads.


If the crown on the barrel is damaged or uneven then powder gasses acting unequally on the base of the exiting bullet can affect accuracy but will not affect twist.

Another issue that can come into play with rifling is an undersized bullet possibly due to an undersized throat swaging the bullet dia. to less than groove dia. and not fully engaging the rifling, not common in .357 but more of an issue in other calibers. It's not cut and dried in reality but for practical purposes it works.