New Thread--.44 S&W Russian Gallery Center Fire Cartridges with Conical Bullets---Can anyone advise me on actual Ball diameter and safe Black Powder loading amount for these Cartridges ----any help would be greatly appreciated
Thank you
Reichrev

I've seen them, but never loaded them. I know the conical bullet has a hollow base with a very large cavity, so I'm guessing, even at gallery pressures, the soft, pure lead bullet's skirt expands to grip the rifling. I seem to remember an old article in Handloader Magazine called "All About 44s" by Ed Yard that had load data for this...? Was just a few grains of Bullseye, IIRC. A very light load of any fast-burning, easy-to-ignite powder should work. Velocities were in the 550-675fps range, again, if memory serves... Interesting yet odd question. What are you loading these for and what are you shooting them out of?

Hello MMA10mm
Thank you for reply Re: S&W Russian Gallery Cartridges, great information, I had no idea Conical bullets were hollow based with cavity, thought they were completely round, I assume this would mean they are no longer manufactured
Would greatly have appreciated the Article in old Handloader Magazine "All about .44s" by Ed Yard, with some Load data ---sadly, not much hope of finding this now
As far as you recall you think this advised few grains of BP for 550--675 fsp, ( all things being equal ) this would, probably, also have a low pressure reading? great.
Incidentally, my reason for seeking this information is a bit too involved and boring to explain here
Many thanks
Reichrev

MMA10mm,

Do you have any idea of approx. what year Handloader you may have seen this Article in?? Reason I ask is I have quite a few Early Handloader Mag's & may be able to help Reichrev out if I can narrow down the era a bit!! If you'd care to take an educated guess I'll look & see what I have!! Thanks!!

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Masterpiece

Reichrev,

Well I guess you could say that I have some good news & some semi-disappointing news!!

To explain, I was able to find the Month & Year of the Handloader Article "All about 44's" by Ed Yard!! It's found on Page 30 of the 1970 May/June Issue of the Handloader Magazine!!

Now the semi-disappointing bad news, I looked through my Early Handloader Binders, & as luck would have it, My Binder with the 1970-71 Issues seems to be among the missing at the moment!! I found my Two Binders prior to that as well as the rest of them which continued up through the 70's & into the 80's when I cancelled my subscription!! Sorry!!

I will do a bit more looking around to see if I can locate it just in case it's simply misplaced, but I suspect I may have lent it out years ago & it was never returned!! Needless to say, I have no idea who I lent it to after all these years!!

Anyway, at least I was able to track down the Issue for you & if by some stroke of luck I locate the Missing Binder I'll contact you ASAP!! I wish I could have had better news, but at least I found the Article & maybe now one of the other Members may come forward to help!! Good Luck!!

*PS*
Now that I've found the Issue, maybe MMA10mm may still have his & pass the info along to you!!

Take Care,Masterpiece


*~Add'l Info~*

Reichrev, I just found out this is a Two-Part Article & was continued into the 1970 July/August Issue & is found on page 34!! By the way, I'm still searching for mine!!

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Masterpiece

Hello Masterpiece
RE: S&W Russian Gallery Cartridges, I do not know how to start thanking you for information received in your post this morning, almost unbelievable
Another Member, MMA10mm, had informed me of an Article he had seen in an old "Handloader Magazine " a long time ago, "All About .44s" by Ed Yard which would have been of great interest to me Loading Data -Dimensions etc. he had no idea of date
Today I received your post in which you have given me the Year, the Month and even the start page numbers of the Article in question, "All About .44s" by Ed Yard
Am still amazed how on earth you uncovered these details from a "Handloader magazine" printed some Forty Two years ago, without any guidelines, so greatfull you did though
You have now opened the door for me, I will now start my search for the two pertinant copies of these magazines
Many many thanks
Reichrev

Reichrev,

Thanks, but truthfully, it wasn't quite as hard as you might expect!! We do live in the computer age you know & that's exactly how I found them!!

I'm sorry I couldn't have helped you further at this time, but if I locate my missing Binder, or locate those Issues anywhere else, I'll be sure to contact you ASAP!!

Take Care & Good Luck!!

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Masterpiece

Hi Reichrev,
For safety, I think we should clarify a few things.

Conical bullets are rounded cone shapes, like the outline of an American civil war -era Minie Ball. Also, much like a Minie ball, they have a hollow base. They are typically very light bullets for light loads.

By your description, it sounds like you MAY be talking about a round ball load, which is often (but not always) called a "gallery load" in the U.S. And round balls are just that - solid lead spheres.

Lastly, I screwed up and missed you asking about BLACK POWDER, and gave you a load suggestion with smokeless powder.

My limited understanding of black powder is that light loads are discouraged. Not recommended.

Now that (hopefully) those points are cleared up, if what you are looking for is a black powder load with a round ball, here is how I would do that:

1. With sized, primed, and bell-mouthed case, I'd measure with micrometer how deep the powder cavity is of your particular cases.
2. I'd subtract .216" (half the width of a .433" round ball, which will be seated that deep in the case) from that.
3. Then, I'd get some veggie wads and measure how thick they are. Subtract that from the last number (because the veggie wad will be seated under the bullet).
4. Then, find by experimentation how much black powder you are using will fill up the remaining powder cavity.
5. Make sure the veggie wad is well-lubed, and I might even add a little extra lube between the veggie wad and the bottom of the ball.
6. Seat the round ball so you can crimp just over the equater of the ball to hold everything secure.

This should produce a pretty light load in a 44 Russian case, even with black powder.

Masterpiece, I've got the magazines but no where near as organized as you! I thought I'd be smart and bought the DVD set of all issues, but the laptop I downloaded it to died... I'll have to find time (maybe this weekend) to dig up the original magazines...

MMA10mm,

Boy, will Reichrev ever be happy to hear that if you can find them!!

I didn't even realize there was such a thing as a DVD Set of these!! That's interesting!! Sure would take up quite a bit less space than the Binders do that's for sure!!

Hope you can track them down for him!! I know you'll make his day!!

__________________
Masterpiece

Hello Masterpiece
Thank you, I do acknowledge we live in a computer age but unfortunately some people are computer illiterate---I am one of these people, my own failing I know
I would never have found all this great information had it not been for you, so I must still say, many thanks
Regards
Reichrev

Hello MMA10mm
Again I must thank you for great informative and advisory post received today
You have clarified so many points, Conical Bullet rounded cone shaped--"Gallery Load" solid lead sphere and added the brilliant 6 Point very easy to follow instructions on loading a .44 Russian Gallery Load, exactly what I have been looking for, fantastic
Regards
Reichrev

Send handloader an email or call them. Its a long shot but they may be able to get you a copy of the article.

Hello sbeatty1938
Thank you for post, I will certainly attempt to contact "Handloader Magazine" in further search for this article
Many thanks
Reichrev

Yes, I've always coveted the DVDs, because there is an index, so you can search articles by key-word. If you want to look up EVERY article ever published in Handloader on, for example, the 30-06, you can do so. Every article by Ken Waters, no problem.

My big problem with them was their expense. The set was around $400 when I got it, and I just could not justify that when I knew the materials cost around $20, and the folks who wrote over half the articles were dead, as well as the old publishers. I don't mind folks making money, and I don't expect it to always get spread around, but I'm also a consumer, so spending 400 of my hard-earned dollars so they could make $350, just wasn't going to happen. But, I went to their booth at the NRA convention one year, and they were running a special, so I jumped. Got 50% off, and that I could live with.

After my laptop experience, I've decided I'm going to download these DVDs to a flash drive. (Downloading all the DVDs to a single drive allows immediate access to all the articles, rather than searching the index on one disk, switching to another disk to look at one possible article, then finding out that's not the one, switching to another disk, etc., etc....) The download took a couple hours, so to avoid that frustration again, and to make the whole thing even smaller, more portable, and transferrable from computer to computer, I think I'm going with the flash drive.

And, yes, Wolfe Publishing still has some back issues, or failing that, they can print off a copy from the DVD set.

I would thank all members who have given me help and advice on .44 Russian Gallery Rounds
I contacted Wolfe Publishing Co. and ordered two out of date Handloader Magazines June and August 1970 Nos 25 & 26 both containing Articles by Ed Yard, "All About 44s" ----Yes?
Been advised by Wolfe Publishing that Handloader June 1970 No 25 is in post on its way to me, unfortunately August 1970 No 26 is out of Stock ---Will be really great help though, thank you all

Wolfe Publishing Co. great company, answer very quickly and apparently posting is inc in advertised Magazine price-----I live in UK --Briliant
Regards
Reichrev

I was hoping someone would have drug some more info out of you on this.
Are you trying to duplicate an old factory loading?
Are you loading for an old blackpowder era firearm?
The diameter would be about .430" or so, it may vary with different brands of weapons, especially old ones. .429" molds will work and you might try them unsized to see if they shoot more accurately.

With blackpowder you fill the case up to the base of the bullet, not compressed, but no free air space.

If you don't have to use blackpowder, you might try Bullseye instead, as another poster mentioned above. A roundball is good but any light bullet would proabably give better accuracy. Wadcutters are designed for low velocity loads and are worth a try if you can find some.

Hello Jellybean
Thank you for your reply to my posts on S&W Russian Gallery Cartridges--I am now trying to find the exact factory Blackpowder load and the method used to Load this Russian "Gallery" cartridge with Roundball
Photos I have seen, and I have been informed the ball is flush with case top and gap filled with certain grease-- and yes, weapon is Black powder era --very old 100 yrs plus
Think it will be a .429 .433 Lead Ball in a S&W .44 Russian Case? Incidentally I am hoping to achieve very low pressure. partly due to gun age and safety
Again thank you, for information and interest
Regards
Reichrev

Reichrev, I've never seen any photos of the cartridge so I can't be of much help there.
With the ball, or whatever they are using, sitting flush with the case mouth you will want to make sure it doesn't flare the case out so much that it won't fit the chamber. They would be better being too big instead of too small as you can always size them down easier than sizing them up.

Some random thoughts: Is the ball in the pictures sitting flush with the case mouth? Or is it deeper? As I said before there can't be an airspace between blackpowder and the projectile. To use a smaller charge you would either have to shorten the case or seat the bullet deeper. The "grease" sounds like they are using it to prevent an accidental discharge of the other cylinders, just like in a cap and ball revolver, this also helps lube the barrel. For cap and ball revolvers it is common to use lard or there is a product made for this called "spit wad", or something like that.

I'll check through my library to see if I can find anything else that might help you out.

Good luck, I just love experimental projects.

Reichrev, if you are still looking for this information...

The only factory .44 Russian gallery load I could find data on was 7 grains of black powder and used a round ball. There were other gallery loads in various calibers that used round balls or light conical bullets.

Bullet diameters were normal sizes for the cartridges used, but you must remember that the old folded head and balloon head cases weren's as thick in the web area as modern smokeless brass which might cause some problems with fouling and accuracy with the deep seating of bullets. Case capacity would also be larger, but this would not cause a problem as long as the bullets/balls were seated properly on the black powder charges.

Some fo these gallery loads had cannelures in the cases to hold the projectile in place while others relied soley on tension.

The cartridges that had the bullet flush with the case mouth were "target" loads and not "gallery" loads, which had the bullet/ball seated deeper inside the cases. None of them mentioned the use of grease to fill the case that I could find.

It appears as though Reichrev has moved on to greener pastures, so I'll finish this off for any mimes that may have been interested.

The above information came mostly from a couple books by Walter Winans. The following came from books by Arthur Corbin Gould and Abraham Lincoln Artman Himmelwright, which have chapters on "reloading".

The gallery loads did have lubricant which was added after the rounds were loaded. One of the gentlemen put a ring of lube on the case mouth and used a concave dowel to push it down onto the ball and then twist it to make sure it was evenly covered. The other melted the lube and used a small brush to apply it directly. Only a small amount of lube is used, which one of them described as covering only 25% of the exposed lead ball. They also gave their recipes for lead for anyone that may be interested.

All of the above books, and thousands more can be downloaded for free from a site called archive.org

One of the books by A. L. A. Himmelwright, "The Pistol and Revolver", gives data for these gallery loads using Bullseye and is well worth reading.

Hello Jellybean
I feel I owe you a great apology and an undiscribable amount of thanks

Sometime ago around 07/11/2012--12/04/2012--12/10/2012 you were helping and advising me on the subject of .44 Russian Gallery Loads, then I had the dreaded computer troubles and I lost touch with the S&W Forum for a time---I was convinced this information had been lost permanently
This week I was moaning about my lost information on Line, regarding Russian Galley Loads when I received a Message from Forum Member S&W ehad and he explained a method by which I could regain the Information I thought I had permanently lost
I took his advice and have recovered all my lost posts including two from you which I had not received, Posts numbered 20/21 and they are both packed with invaluable (to me ) information, absolutely brilliant
I am now after the book "Pistol and Revolver" am also going to the Libraries you mentioned
I hope you can make sense of all above and thank you again
Regards
Reichrev

.44 Smith & Wesson Russian Gallery, Conical:
115-grain hollow base (old Ideal/Lyman No.429104, last listed about 1938); my Ideal Handbook No.26 (1916) recommends 5 to 6 grains FFFg black powder. The same charge of 5 to 6 grains FFFg was also recommended for use with a 116-grain round ball (Ideal/Lyman No.429108, last listed about 1951). Bullet diameter stated to be 0.429-inches. The hollow base bullet was designed as an alternative to the round ball, being of similar weight and ballistic properties, but having a groove for lubrication.

Winchester catalogs from 1895 thru 1914 indicate 6 grains of FFFG to be the charge used in .44 S&W Russian Gallery Conical ammunition of their manufacture, with a bullet weight of 115-grains, while their round ball weighed 105 grains; both stated to be of pure lead.

Noted pistol authority A. L. A. Himmelwright, in the 1908 edition of his book "The Pistol and Revolver", recommended 7 grains of FFFg with a 110-grain bullet, stating that this loading would group 10 shots inside a 1-inch circle at 20 yards, and a 2-inch circle at 30 yards.

All the sources I consulted clearly stated that with black powder there must be no air-space between the base of the bullet and the powder charge.

Jim

And here's a drawing of Ideal No.429104 (from Lyman's "Handbook of Cast Bullets", c.1958):

Attached Images

429104_2.jpg (80.1 KB, 9 views)

Reichrev,

Charles Suydam in "U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns" shows two factory "Gallery" loads for the .44 Russian. The first, from U.M.C., is shown as being loaded with a 105 gr. round ball and 6 gr. black powder. The second, from WRACo, is shown as loaded with a 110 gr. round ball and 7 gr. black powder,

As a .429 Lead ball weighs 119 gr, and a .432 weighs 121 gr. I wonder where the weights came from.

Virtually all "gallery" loads from back in the day, at least for revolvers, were loaded with round ball. It is the simplest of things, simply charge the cases and load the ball being careful to push it down firmly onto the powder. DO NOT leave any airspace in any cartridge when loading with black powder, there is a very real probability of ringing the chamber if there is a gap between the charge and bullet.

I would use a pure lead ball of .430-432, makes little difference as long as it can be readily seated in the case. A couple of drops of Lee Liquid Alox on top of the ball and allowed to dry will keep leading down and help with fouling. Saeco Green lube, or even a dab of Crisco as used with cap & ball revolvers will work even better.

Don't try to over-think this, duplicating the old gallery loads is handloading at its' most basic level.

__________________
Gunsmithing since 1961

Hello TripleLock
Thank you for post received 15/04/2013 absolutely brilliant information, I do not have the facilities to source all this data myself, greatly appreciated
I have copied and stored all these facts and book titles, I will make good use of them
Thank you again
Reichrev

Hello Alk8944
Thank you for great post received today 15/04/2013
Vast amount of knowledge and information, now all copied and stored, brilliant, I will make much use of this
I intend to use .44 Russian Starline brass with .433 Lead Balls level with top of cartridge, with a suitable lube, as a start
Your comment of, not over thinking this project, as Lead ball reloading is the basic form has really boosted my confidence and given me a feeling of possibly, it is possible, with care. thank you
Again, many thanks for all your help
Reichrev