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Old 09-08-2009, 01:46 AM
snowman snowman is offline
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Moderator: I wasn't sure where to put this one; please advise if necessary.

Well, I don't know if definitive answers can be had for this particular inquiry, but it's worth a try. I always enjoy reading the expert viewpoints here, and appreciate all attempts to assist.

Here's the situation: I plan to do a load test for the first time with my 629 Classic DX this week. I believe these guns are tested for accuracy at the factory using a 240gr. bullet(correct me if I'm mistaken). I will be using a 210gr. bullet, on top of H110(min. to max. in 1/2gr. increments -all within H110's parameters of course). Consequently I'm expecting pretty high velocities. In my limited experience, the faster the bullet is driven, the lower it hits on the target.

I've designed my own targets in an attempt to facilitate a more precise hold. They are made of sections of posterboard given to me by my boss. A possible problem could arise as a result of the vertical dimension of these: only around 8-1/2". If the high-velocity loads hit too low, they could miss the posterboard, and make it impossible to locate the group in the midst of all the other holes in the target board. This wouldn't be good, since I have only 6 rounds loaded for each charge weight and can't afford to waste any.

Given all the above facts, I'll have to either raise the rear sight before firing, guessing how many increments I have to raise it, and/or replace the front sight with one that is approx. .025 lower than the patridge I have on there currently(all of you who own one of these will recall that the front sight can be changed out without tools, and that there are five different ones which come with the gun). The sight referred to has a gold bead on it, which I don't really like, but it might be useful.

In light of all this, I'm wondering if anyone knows how to figure the approximate difference in elevation which will occur per increment on the rear sight, and how much difference in elevation would likely occur by installing the lower front sight. The range will be approximately fifty yards, and the gun has the 8-3/8" barrel, which I believe makes for around a 10-1/2" sight radius. I'm guessing I need to raise the POI from 2-3 inches to avoid missing the bottom edge of the target.

I think that's all the information. Input, anyone?

Andy
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:52 AM
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I am no mathmetician or load test expert. I can't help with any calculations.
Would it be possible to attach a large blank sheet of paper to the back of your target poster board (or another, larger poster board?) That way you could tell if you were off your target and able to adjust. Perhaps there are other factors involved that make it impossible to use a larger backing?
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:22 AM
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Excellent suggestion, furyalecto. I don't know where to find large enough paper for the job, but I'll see if I can find something. I suppose I could piece a few 8-1/2 x 11s together.
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:48 AM
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Screw your rear sight all the way down,Then 2 1/2 full revolutions up.For a 6 o'clock hold.

Ken
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:08 AM
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Excellent suggestion, furyalecto. I don't know where to find large enough paper for the job, but I'll see if I can find something. I suppose I could piece a few 8-1/2 x 11s together.
Can't help with the calculations, I just use trial and lots of error.
When sighting in at the range, I first cover the range board (large cardboard) with a sheet of white Reynolds Freezer (Butcher Wrap) Paper which is 18" wide and as long as you want. This gives a clean "slate" and put what ever target you are using in the center. I use the sight in targets from this web site, which help measure your groupings.

MYTARGETS.COM Free Targets That Print In PDF Format
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:36 AM
M29since14 M29since14 is offline
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Andy, I believe the sight set that came with your gun has four plain black blades for 50-100-150-200 yards. I am not sure I read your question correctly, but to get to the point, if I were in your shoes, I would put the 50-yard blade (the tallest one) in the gun and shoot the group (3 rounds only, since you want to be conservative with your ammo) using the normal hold you have established for the gun and 240-grain ammo. I do not think you will see "a lot" of difference with the 210-grain shells at 50-yards. It is just a guess but I would expect maybe 2-3 inches.

If you cannot use a bigger sheet of paper behind the one you plan to use, for some reason ( ? ), you could always cover existing holes with tape or pasters.

As to the mathematics involved in making a calculation, I am sure it can be done, but it is way beyond the means of most of us here. It would certainly vary with the strength of your grip on the weapon, which of course is an individual thing. A WAG might end up being as good as the actual calculation.

"Take the field" and forget the mathematics on this one.
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:43 AM
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I'm not sure if this applies directly. The following link is to a page that examines velocity effect on POI with a black powder rifle. With a spread of 400 fps the POI moved about 40 thousandths at ranges out to 150 yards. That would seem to imply that you should not be in danger of shooting off the paper.

Muzzleloading Point of Impact Myth

I hope that helps,

Frank
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:11 AM
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If you have access to one there is a sight correction chart in Brownells catalog that will help with this. I don't have mine in front of me at the moment. As far as calculating this I have seen the formula - a long time ago so this is from memory and please someone correct me.
50 yds = 1800 inches, 1800 divided by the sight radius of 10.5" is 171.43. Point of impact change will be 171.43 times sight movement. So a movement of .025" x 171.43 equals 4.29" movement at 50 yards. (?) Somebody check me on that.
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:15 AM
Wayne Dobbs Wayne Dobbs is offline
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Here's how you figure sight correction or value per adjustment increment. The formula is:

Impact error X Sight Radius divided by Range

Make sure and keep your increments in the same terms and I imagine you'd use inches in your case.

As an example, let's say you have an impact error of three inches at 50 yards and your 629 has a 10 1/2 inch sight radius (and you need to measure this dimension carefully).

Therefore: (3 x 10.5)/1800 (50 yards converted to inches) = 0.0175" of sight correction needed to bring your impact point in line with your sights. This amount of correction can be applied to either sights, front or rear, to obtain the point of impact desired.

Hope this helps you.

Last edited by Wayne Dobbs; 09-08-2009 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Incorrect value listed on calculation
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:21 PM
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Wayne, should that be .0175"? If so we have two differnet ways of getting the same answer. But as I said I'm working off an old memory that ain't what it used to be!
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:40 PM
Wayne Dobbs Wayne Dobbs is offline
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Nimrod,

YES it should be and thanks for spotting my goofball error. Edit in progress.

Wayne
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:16 PM
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I knew I'd get some helpful information -thanks, fellas.

OCD1: Where might I find freezer wrap? I don't believe I've ever seen the stuff for sale anywhere.
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M29since14 View Post
Andy, I believe the sight set that came with your gun has four plain black blades for 50-100-150-200 yards. I am not sure I read your question correctly, but to get to the point, if I were in your shoes, I would put the 50-yard blade (the tallest one) in the gun and shoot the group (3 rounds only, since you want to be conservative with your ammo) using the normal hold you have established for the gun and 240-grain ammo. I do not think you will see "a lot" of difference with the 210-grain shells at 50-yards. It is just a guess but I would expect maybe 2-3 inches.

If you cannot use a bigger sheet of paper behind the one you plan to use, for some reason ( ? ), you could always cover existing holes with tape or pasters.

As to the mathematics involved in making a calculation, I am sure it can be done, but it is way beyond the means of most of us here. It would certainly vary with the strength of your grip on the weapon, which of course is an individual thing. A WAG might end up being as good as the actual calculation.

"Take the field" and forget the mathematics on this one.

Thanks, M29. I'm scratching my head about the front sight issue -my gun has 2 ramps: one plain blue and the other with red insert; and three patridge: one plain blue, one with white dot, and the one I mentioned with the gold bead. I measured the height on all with my calipers, and from what I can see, all are the same height except the one with the gold bead. These were given to me by one of our fine members here, and I was under the impression that they were the standard set which came with the DX models. My gun, by the way, was used when I bought it, and did not come with the extra sights.

Can you tell me what a "WAG" is?

Andy
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:45 PM
M29since14 M29since14 is offline
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Andy, with my memory, sometimes I "remember" things that weren't necessarily so. If that is the case with the sight blades, I apologize. I could easily be wrong about that. I thought those guns came with the four patridge blades I described, a red damp, and a Call or McGivern Gold bead. It's been years since I saw one. I may be thinking of another model. A WAG is the proverbial wild-axx guess, which we dare not be too direct in saying on the boss' family-friendly forum.

I went back and read your original post, after looking at the other answers you received. I hope my comments didn't cause more confusion than they helped. Basically, to repeat, I don't believe you are going to see a lot of difference in your 50 yard zero with the 210 gr. vs 240 gr. loads and that long barrelled gun. Let us know how it works out.
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:04 PM
canoe on the yukon canoe on the yukon is offline
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In my opinion,you're overthinking this.You'll be using small batches of ammo for load development and that will be your main mission the first trip to the range.During the load testing,I'd recommend you sight in for 25 yards.(with the front sight of your preference).With a larger batch of ammo that you've settled on,fine tune the sights to hit where you want at 50 yards or whatever your choice is.Presumably,this will take place on your second trip to the range.
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canoe on the yukon View Post
In my opinion,you're overthinking this.You'll be using small batches of ammo for load development and that will be your main mission the first trip to the range.During the load testing,I'd recommend you sight in for 25 yards.(with the front sight of your preference).With a larger batch of ammo that you've settled on,fine tune the sights to hit where you want at 50 yards or whatever your choice is.Presumably,this will take place on your second trip to the range.
Thanks for the response, canoe. I'm sure that this would be the way to approach things for those who can load and get to the range more often than I can. In my typical circumstances it could by a year or probably more before I can load some more and get this gun back to the range. Probably 90% of my range time is devoted to becoming a more capable defensive shooter, and even that is insufficient defensive practice time. But other responsibilities effectively rule out more shooting.

Consequently I'd like to get this right the first time, if possible. If it doesn't work, I'll go from there.

Also, I actually enjoy thinking through things like this with other folks. Deliberation and forethought are almost a form of entertainment to me -good exercise for the intellect, too(who knows, might be preventive medicine for dementia later on!).

Thanks again for your input.
Andy
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:05 AM
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I knew I'd get some helpful information -thanks, fellas.

OCD1: Where might I find freezer wrap? I don't believe I've ever seen the stuff for sale anywhere.
Should be in any large grocery store or maybe even Super Wal Mart In the same section as wax paper. aluminum foil, plastic wrap etc.
It is wax coated white paper. We actually use it for it's intended purpose. If we buy a large cut of meat, we divide it up to freeze it. No freezer burn. OMG, I sound like Heloise
Staple a sheet up on your target board and you can clearly see your shots to make adjustments.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:32 AM
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Use large paper background. Two sources are Picnic table paper covering. Comes 36" wide and on a roll you cut off however much you want. Usually available at Party stores or WalMart. Other source is the local newspaper, where they normally have "roll ends". A roll of plain newsprint that has not enough left on it to do a print job. Our local paper gives them away for nothing when they have them. My one roll has lasted me through numerous tests and shotgun patterning and still have plenty left.
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:52 PM
Wayne Dobbs Wayne Dobbs is offline
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WAG = Wild A** Guess; closely related to the SWAG, which is a Scientific Wild A** Guess
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:29 PM
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Well, at least one fellow posted this, and was my first impression also. Start at 25 yds with a 2" square or round bull, perhaps stickers you buy in WalMart office-products wall. Lots of folks use these, one of 'em that uses 2" stickers is John Taffin, IIRC. You don't need any more of a target than the 2" bull.
Your game shooting would likely not exceed 60 yds or so with iron sights. Especially until you get some experience. So a 25 yds "zero" is quite acceptable and I think the change at 50 yds would not exceed about one inch. I think most .44 Maggie loads probably have a 4" trajectory at 100 yds and most of that is in the second 50 yds.
The post about using 8 1/2" x 11" printer paper is good. Many of us use that and also, we use it to print out targets that we find on the web.
Here's one you can try:
http://accurateshooter.net/targets/6mmbrvert.pdf
Just figure that you'll want a lot of shells, particularly if you like to shoot. Using five or six per load is okay if you're checking velocity on a chronograph, but you are limiting yourself.
Good luck, have fun. Stay safe.
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:48 PM
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Hi, sonny; thanks for responding. You may want to review my previous post, in which I explain why I'm not doing the preliminary 25yd. test.

I'm guessing by "game shooting" that you're referring to hunting? Or perhaps some sort of competition? I should probably have mentioned that I'm neither a hunter nor a competitive shooter. My partial disability effectively rules those activities out. I just like to relax at the range every so often and see if I can become a little more proficient each time.

I'm not quite sure how to understand your last statement re: the amount of ammunition I have. I didn't want to load more until I tested each load for accuracy(velocity also). If I'm able to isolate the most accurate load, then I'll load those and use them from here on out.

Thanks for the information on trajectory. I don't expect that to be much of a factor at all with these loads at 50yd. What I'm dealing with is not knowing what Wayne called the "impact error" from the outset. I'm going to have to guess somewhat for sure; but all you fellows have provided some insight into what to expect, along with good suggestions for backing paper.

Thanks again to all who took the time to help.
Andy
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:16 AM
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Snowman, found this while looking for something in Lymans manual. It may be the same as what Mr Dobbs posted.

See if this attachment thing works.

Last edited by Rule3; 10-02-2013 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:43 PM
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Just use your GPS. Mine tells me spot on how fast I am going and notice the difference on your speedomiter. If your speedo says your doing 67 to do the 65 limit drive 67! Or wasnt that the question?
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
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I knew I'd get some helpful information -thanks, fellas.

OCD1: Where might I find freezer wrap? I don't believe I've ever seen the stuff for sale anywhere.
Someone probably answered this already, but have you looked at your local grocery store? Same area where they have the canning jars!
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Old 09-28-2012, 10:32 PM
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If you can't find freezer wrap or if it's too costly, look into the rolls of brown painters paper used to mask off large areas. Find it at a big box store in different width rolls for a couple bucks ea.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:18 PM
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One of the things about the .44 round is that bullets that are close to the same size have a very common POI 210 /240 gr. Also you need maybe more ammo for testing-not six rounds each ??? Another thing that comes to my small mind is bigger paper far out (50 yds) ok but what about some rounds at 10 yrds to just see where its going. Anyway thats how we were taught to sight in-get it right up close then move it back a little at a time- charts might help but the proof is in the pudding just my 2 cents
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:31 AM
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Gentlemen:

I solved this issue 3 years ago. feralmerril apparently was looking for my day or two-old thread in the Lounge containing the word "mathematicians" and somehow thought that this old one was what he was looking for. That's OK, merril, no harm done(also, mileage is the issue rather than speed).

Andy
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