I'm looking for a clean-burning powder for my 158-grain lead semi-wadcutter target loads. I'm not concerned with residue left in the barrel; I care more about not having the sticky black coating that powders like Bullseye and others leave on your gun and hands.

Right now, my powder of choice is Clays. Yes, I know it's a shotgun powder but it works great in my .38 Special and .45ACP target loads. As it is in 12-gauge trap/skeet/sporting loads, it is very clean-burning in a handgun but it doesn't give me the accuracy in the .357 that it does in the other two cartridges. TiteGroup delivers better accuracy in the .357 but is almost as dirty as Bullseye and Unique. I tried Universal Clays but found that you have to load it heavy to get it to burn - I had unburned powder all over the bench, my hands and my gun when I tried it with 148-grain wadcutters in my .38s and with that kind of an inconsistent burn, the accuracy left a lot to be desired. I'm considering trying W231 but don't know how clean it is.

What I would like to know is what powder(s) those of you who are familiar with Clays in a handgun can recommend that might be as clean or close to it.

Ed

I have not tried Clays in .357 cases. A load of 3.0 grains under a 158 gr cast LRN in a .38 Special case worked very well though.

I like it also for .45 ACP loads with 200 grain cast SWCs.

Were you intending to use .357 or .38 cases for your loads?

I've never used Clays so can't make comparisons but I have to say as
much as I like 231 it isn't particularly clean burning in light loads. In
standard pressure 38 sp loads the cleanest burning powders for me
have been Winchester's discontinued 452AA and it's replacement
Super Target.

I'm using .357 brass.

Ed

Years ago I used Accurate No. 2 in 148gr wadcutter loads and it was pretty clean. Haven't used it in ten years or so because not a single shop in my area carries Accurate Arms powders anymore. Bullseye is my go to light load powder, soot and all.

Ed, your quest is going to come to a frustrating end, I am afraid, and remember, almost all handgun powders do dual duty as shotgun powders.....its a pressure thing......

The culprit for your "dirt" is much more likely the lead or the lube than it is any powder you will ever use. If you want to check me on that, switch to plated bullets with any of the powders you mentioned. You will notice "clean" right away.

All powders work better at the top of their pressure ranges as far as leaving unburnt powder behind. That is why you find a powder that gives you the velocity you want near or above midpoint of its load data for the bullet you choose.

But, searching for a clean powder that physics just can't let happen is a fallacy. When the combustion happens, some lead is going to get vaporized and be deposited on the gun, anywhere it can leak out to.

FWIW

Ed's Red homemade solvent:


M14 with several hundred rounds of 3.5gr of Bullseye under a 160gr LSWC:


Put a little on a rag:


And wipe it down:

I've not tried it but 6 grains of Unique will keep you at about 1000 fps and that much Unique should burn fairly clean.

So with a "clean" burning powder does that mean your going to clean your guns after shooting ? I've never understood this quest for a "clean burning" powder. I clean my guns after every session regardless of how clean or dirty.It is no different to clean a dirty gun or not as dirty.To give the attributes of Bullseye and lead loads a toss because it is "dirty" seems a bit self defeating.I spend no more time cleaning on a 'Bullseye and lead" load than Clays or any other powder with lead.I will always strive for accuracy as opposed to a "clean gun" when done shooting.

Please understand, I have no aversion to cleaning a gun after shooting. But there's "dirty" and "DIRTY" and I can see a huge difference in the filth on the gun and my hands when I use Clays in a load instead of Bullseye, Unique or TiteGroup. I'm actually pretty anal about cleaning guns - here's a shot of the cylinder face of my 4" no-dash 617, a 32 year-old gun that sees a lot of use (and we all know how filthy rimfire ammo can be).



And the 686 I shot yesterday.



I would just like to make shooting a little less messy. If need be, I'll just stick with Clays and play around with charge weights in search of better accuracy in the .357.

Thanks so much for all the good ideas!

Ed

^^this
you may as well give up on clean with any form of lead and work with the full array of powders available.
personally, I like dirty powders behind lead, it seems to help make a nice mess that the lead is less prone to sticking to.
also as mentioned, your next option is a switch to plated bullets where your clean powders can demonstrate their slow fowling ways.
I just accept the fowling unless its so bad that it stops the function of the gun before a set quantity of shots determined by the role of the load at hand.
20 rounds clean or 20 rounds filthy... its seeing the cleaning kit either way

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it just needs more voltage

Ed, that just aint natural...........

Seems to be a common request these days. Lots of folks want clean burning loads. Does it have to do with our increasingly "civilized" life? Living in apartments, no yardwork/fieldwork, no wood fires, indoor shooting ranges, meat in shrinkwrap? We used to get our hands dirty all the time just living.

Personally, I >like< getting my hands dirty. I played in the mud when I was a kid. I've worked on cars and gotten greasy from head to toe. I guess it makes me feel like I've accomplished something.

Shooting involves noise, recoil, smoke, dirt and maybe hitting something. I suppose if I just wanted to hit a target, I'd shoot airguns. But, they actually bore me. Black powder would be a step in the right direction, but I don't have the patience for that. (ok, one of my quirks)

To the OP: Have you considered shooting with nitrile gloves and a face mask? Seriously. And no, I'm not just being a smart-aleck.

A lot of the "soot" from the powders you are trying to avoid is the graphite coating applied so the powder flows better. The spherical (ball) powders and most of the Clays line seem to have the least, and the Alliant flake powders the most.

There may be some very slight lubrication benefit to the gun from the graphite residue but not enough to make up for the mess if it bothers you.

Krogen, I am retired from 38 years in the automobile dealership service industry, 11 as a master technician and 27 as a service or fixed operations manager. And I used to build racing engines on the side. All that was in the days before technicians became civilized and started wearing gloves, so my hands have been plenty dirty plenty of times. If an indoor range is well-ventilated, I don't mind the smoke and other dirt; outdoors, that is a moot point.

I just figure if some powders make you and you gun filthy and others do not, why use the dirty ones unless they offer some important advantage that the cleaner ones do not.

And some powders are clean in one type of gun but not in others. I've loaded PB in my trap loads for 20+ years and it's considered one of the cleanest and softest-shooting powders you can use. And it delivers great accuracy in the .45ACP but is positively filthy in that gun, so I went back to Clays. I don't use Clays in my trap loads because being fast-burning, its felt recoil is a sharper jab while PB's is a firm "push."

Whatever trips your trigger, I guess.

Ed

I agree with the fellows above that "clean burning" is the new "buzz phrase" around the web from new reloaders. I don't go shooting in a white tux. I don't eat after shooting without washing my hands. I do have a couple hand towels (or shop rags) when I shoot to wipe some of the soot off my hands and guns. I do wash my hands when I leave the range and often shower when I get home. When I'm shooting up in the hills, I always take water with me to rinse my hands and face before driving home. All my guns get cleaned after a range session. My lead bullets/loads do shoot with a bit more soot/lube, but that's the nature of the beast. If I'm concerned about GSR, I don't shoot!

I shoot a lot of Bullseye, Unique, Bluedot, and 2400. I also shoot some W231 and Universal plus my ball powder/surplus WC820. I'm more concerned with preformance than getting soot on my hands...

AveragED,

You can get plated bullet from this site and it beats getting the lead in your lungs plus you can see how dirty the powder is/is not. allot people are against copper coated lead rounds but they have many benefits and Berry's have a thick plating of copper. I bought a load of them fro my .41 mag, .390 carbine and other guns and they stand up to the high velocities of each round mentioned...like i said you do not need lead in your lungs. I have shot military competition an d have 5 combat deployments that lasted 13-15 months each and just inhaling super heated metal from road side bombs have ruined my throat lungs etc and its not easy to talk,,,check the bullets and like everyone says guns are supposed to get dirty...get a multi-pack of flitz and give you blue/plated or stainless steel gun a gold polishing after it is really clean...it will look new

38 / 357 plated pistol bullets

I have been in fire fights that lasted 5 days and we expended over 1 million rounds of 5.56, .308 and .50 cal small not including grenades, rockets , 90 mm recoil-es rifle rounds and our weapons would have to be pulled out of the fight after all extra barrels had been ruined from heat and over use...the M16 had to be either kept super lubed to continue of let to cool down and a cleaning done...and its a really filthy weapon with no lead rounds shot..its part of the shooters experience and if you have kids you can use that cleaning time to instruct them in how to do things correctly.

I'm not sure it's possible, either, but haven't shot target .38s in decades. That was the old 2.3 bullseye.
I never thought about it but venom may be onto something. My best shooting .38/.357 loads are 2400 behind either a hard cast or gas-checked SWC, just short of max.
Man, some of these replies are downright rude. If you've ever put 500 rounds through a gas-operated shotgun in one day at trap or sporting clays, you really appreciate a clean burning load. If you've ever put 500 rounds through a 12 gauge in one day, you really appreciate the recoil reduction of a gas system.
Lighten up!

I'm gonna have to agree with Ed here. I like Bullseye and do use it for
some loads but it does deposit more residue on my hands and guns
than most other powders. It's not just bullet lube. I can fire a few
five shot groups or chrono strings with other powders and then five
shots of Bullseye handloads and my gun and hands will be blackened
more by those five shots than the previous fifteen or twenty. Yeah
it's just part of the shooting experience but if I can find a satisfactory
load with a cleaner powder that's what I will use.

That's the fun part about shooting revolvers, your hands get dirty! There is no avoiding it...

There's dirty (231) and filthy (Bullseye) but I'll have to admit it appeared to me (when loading BE and 231) that BE shot somewhat better groups. For informal shooting I now use only 231. If I were shooting in a match I'd switch back to BE and live with the grit.

I used A/A #5, with a cold cap and a home-cast 158 grain Keith type bullet. My bullet profile had gas-check design, but I never used them.

I had revolvers like an early model SW 66 and a three inch 65.

I must admit that I never cared for the .357 and never kept mine very long. I mostly just punch paper and chased beer cans with them.

I had a four-inch nickel plated Python. I had to send it back to the factory twice to have it re-timed. Despite the conventional wisdom that the 125 grain Federal load was the most lethal round at the time, I went back to four and five inch 1911's with less 'crack.'

Even with 185 grain combat loads, I shot tighter groups. I shoot .44 Mag metallic silhouette loads all day. There's just something annoying about hot, light bullet .357 loads.

Yeah, I've got to agree with Tourist about the use of .357s. I don't hunt with a handgun anymore and seldom shoot mine, in fact, I no longer own a DA .357, just my 3-screw Blackhawk.

If I could find an ICORE or similar match locally, I would probably invest in a PC 686 or 627.

If you really want to tame the 357's bark ... get a rifle chambered in it.
I got my wife a Henry Big boy in 357, so as she'd have a good pleasant to shoot weapon in an effective caliber. I wasn't big on lever actions, but let me tell you that rifle is hard not to fall in love with.
Its very gentle on the shooter, yet rather hard on that what is on the receiving end.

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it just needs more voltage

Just as an FYI, I loaded 50 rounds of .357 ammo with 158-grain cast LSWCs over Clays powder and shot them this morning. No black, sticky goop anywhere.

Ed

Ed, make sure that you do not go over the suggested charge weight for Clays AND use Hodgdon's data. Personally, I will never use it again in any semi-auto cartridge, it is too spikey at the top end. Couple that with an unsupported chamber and you have a recipe for disaster.

Granted, you are speaking about handguns and good ones at that, still, make sure you stay in the data.

Clays is a wonderful powder for light loads. To say that it is cleaner than another because of a 50 round test though.........I ain't buying it. But, it is your story and stick to it friend!

The best thing about this whole thing is that you tested something out, loaded ammo and then went and shot it. If anything, you are a winner in that regard every time!

As I said in an earlier post, I have used Clays for years in all my target handgun loads but yearned for slightly better accuracy in my .357 load, otherwise I would never have been trying other powders. Since the only full-power loads I use are .44s in my 629s and then only for hunting, I don't bother with handloading them. For a couple of sighting rounds and - hopefully - a round or two while hunting each year, factory loads make more sense. But 5.0 grains of Clays under a cast 240-grain SWC makes for a mild-recoiling, very clean and accurate cartridge.

It doesn't take a lot of power to put a hole in paper and here's the real beauty of that target load - it shoots to the same 25-yard and very close to the same 50-yard point of impact as the Hornady 240-grain XTP factory load in my 5" 629-3 Classic DX and my son's 6.5" 629-4 Classic.

I always start mid-range and usually stay there unless accuracy suffers. I have plenty of room to increase the charge weight for Clays in the .357 and still stay within published guidelines. Hodgdon's lists the range for Clays with a 158-grain cast SWC as 3.2 to 4.6 and I was loading 4.0.

I put stock in that 50-round test because that many rounds with TiteGroup, Bullseye or Unique left my 686 feeling sticky and looking like it had a blued cylinder. Been there, done that and don't know why I should do it any more when I don't have to.

Ed

I guess if I were looking for a more comfortable load that burns fairly clean, I'd first decide what velocity I consider comfortable then find a powder that gives me that velocity in the upper mid range (about 75%) of the published data. Most powders I use burn cleaner in that zone than they do in the lower regions.

If'n you want to see what dirty powder really is, load up some of your 38/357s with some black powder, ffg. You might get 3 or 4 cylinders fired before the soot/carbon/gunk stops the action...

that would be something on the order of "insensitivity training"
after that, Im sure most seeking clean powders would be happy to brush asphalt out of a bore.

I rather like the greasy mess made by cast.
its soft and most any solvent, to include WD 40 can dissolve it.
Not so true of the thin hard dry layer left by jacketed over any powder.
one of these days, I'll bore a mold with a few thin shallow grooves, plate the bullets and dip lube them to see if there is a balance to be had.
but thats one of these days .. Im only mildly curious about it and perfectly happy water proofing the range with spent bullet lube

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it just needs more voltage

I shoot 12 & 14 gr. of 2400 with a 155 gr. Lyman hard cast 155 swc out of my 19-5 --2 1/2 inch. I can clean it with a brush a rag & a small amount of Hoppies in a very short while. The same load also shoots good in my Marlin carbine & holds ok out to 100 yards.

I like w231 with a good crimp

I load all my lead cast bullets in the 38 special cases because they get a better performance ballastic wise than using the longer 357mag case. I save the 357maq cases for JHP loads.

I do the same thing with the 44 special brass for leadcast and the 44mag cases for JHP loads in my 44mags.

I use the Unique gun powder in all my leadcast and 45acp loads. And 2400 in the jhp loads in the magnums. So far they been burning clean.

Try some WW296. Works for me.

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James

Anyone who complains of "dirty" smokeless powder should be sentenced to firing 5,000 rounds loaded with black powder! :-)

Seriously, even the "dirtiest" smokeless powders give nothing more than a bit of cosmetic blackening, and most of that will wipe off. As mentioned before, the closest thing to serious dirt comes from lube residue.

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Pisgah

I use Clays also and thought it to be fairly clean, I've only started using it recently. I prefer Win 231 for most loads and considered it clean. With lead bullets more residue seems to be present, but no doubt you are keeping the FPS below 1000 generally. I'm surprised you found Tightgroup dirtier than Clays. The new Unique is cleaner than it used to be but I still call it a mess maker. But out of them all, I prefer 231 as an all around powder with easy cleanup. I do dislike Bullseye and regret when I find some of my older loads needing to be shot up make with this one!

Red Dot at moderate loads as most any flake powder will do.

AverageEd,

I like H.Universal and/or AA #5 with 158g LSWC, I have found them to be just a bit "cleaner" than say 2400, 231 or Bullseye (which by the way make great target loads).

Something else to try.

AverageEd,
I have seen the mess from Bullseye and looked for something else as well.
I have most of the shotgun powders because that is what I reload the most for. I found a Green Dot target load that works well in the 357 case. I use the same powder in the 38 case but prefer the 357 to keep from getting the ring in the cylinder.
Cleaner for me and accuracy is fine for the target and plates on the weekend.
Have not used the Clays in the 38 or 357, but have a bunch on hand.

I just got back from the range with my 13-3. I was firing 158 gr swc with 7.0 gr of Unique, Very clean.... I used to use in the 5 figure before and I got alot of black but with the 7 it was good combustion and accurate.

Clean and Bullet Lube are mutually exclusive.

If you are going to shoot lubed lead you might as well use Unique and save some money.

Some lubes aren't as sooty and smokey as others, My lesson learned in casting is that bullets which have a room temp lube are sootier than a lube that require a heater.

I have a fair amount of skepticism when it comes to a discussion about which powder is dirtier than the other since, all of my guns get dirty when shooting LSWC's and I never did a scientific analysis to measure the levels of soot on my guns with various powders. I just can't see any noticable difference with lead bullets after several hundred rounds with whatever powder I'm using.

Be that as it may, let me submit this. I wonder if any condemnation of powders such as Bullseye for being "dirty" has something to so with its relative FAST burn rate as it reacts to the lube on lead bullets as opposed to marginally slower burning powders like clays or 231 or new and improved Unique? Could Bullseye's reputation for being "dirty" have more to do with that FAST burn characteristic (reacting with the bullet/lube) as opposed to any inherent residue of the powder itself?

IC

If cleanliness is what you're after, choose VihtaVouri powders. They make a wide range of burning rates, appropriate for target to magnum loads in your caliber, and they'll all shoot so clean, your gun will likely be cleaned up from previous shooting sessions when your done firing a hundred + rounds with VV powders... (mine were) Just be prepared for sticker shock. To me, it's not worth it.

In my guns, with either Lasercast or MBC 158 SWC's, I find trailboss is the cleanest for target loads in the 357 Magnum.

The rounds are really wimpy though!




Accurate though. 50 shots, 15 yrds offhand.

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SWCA 1646

I like 231. You may consider bullet and lube as part of the residue.
You could go ...Green! I'm sure someone will find a way. lol

I like the dirt on your gun! Even though it has that 4 letter word on it!

Guns were made to get dirty! And then cleaned and messed with! It's the American WAY!

First time to shoot the 686.
Rem UMC factory, 130 grain RN

Honesty, I didn't know any better. :0

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Professional Trainer

I have to confess to the search for my own cleaner burning powder for my plinking loads. Sure, the gun is going to get dirty and require cleaning but that had nothing to do with my search. I would get gritty unburned bits of powder, soot, or whatever and it would start to build up under the extractor. Before long it starts to get into the hole milled into the frame and can start to alter your trigger pull. If you ignore it long enough then next thing you know you have a six for sure that is frozen with six live still in it. The worst one so far is finding a light fun times .45 ACP plinker for 200gr SWC loads that doesn’t just dump yuck out from those big fat short cases under the extractor star. I still have a bunch of mild loaded Unique loads that I dread shooting as they just dump the grit into my 625 or my 1911. The only conclusion I’ve read is what’s been posted already about powder burns best towards the top of its load recipe and there is little you can do to change that other than try a heavier crimp or move to plated.

On a side note, I would sure love to know what they load the Win Clean .38’s with since the cases look like they just came out of the tumbler when I eject them. It’s like they are loaded with compressed air instead of powder.

Solo 1000 & VV N320 are two of the most popular "clean" powders with the IPSC crowd. As you realize by now, much of the soot you are seeing is from the bullet lube. You could try spraying your bullets with a micro graphite spray like Frankford Arsenals "mold release" before loading. It might help a little.