38/44 load

[phenson]

Please educate me. I've done a search on the forum and really can't find what I'm looking for, it may be because it doesn't exist.
I'm looking for a load using 2400 and an RCBS 35-200-FN, .358" diameter, 200 gr. cast bullet to duplicate the old 38/44 round. I know there is no modern data and there may not be any old data, but if anyone knows for sure I would appreciate the info.
Thanks

[lebomm]

To the best of my knowledge, the old .38-44 load used a 158 gr. bullet. However, I'd be willing to bet a small amount that you'll be pleased with your bullet over 10.5-11.0 gr 2400. I have a mould for the Lyman 358315, a 200 gr. RNw/GC for the .35 Remington, and loaded these over 12.0 gr 2400, getting flattened primers. I've since settled on the 170 gr. Keith type 358429/12.0 2400 for my Transitional HD. Please keep us posted.

Larry

[Paul5388]

If this is the bullet you're talking about

BULLET MOULD .35-200-FN
I think you'll find it a bit long for the application. It would work in a Handi rifle with a long chamber, or a .35 Rem, but it'll probably hang out of the end of the cylinder on a revolver.

[tops]

I use 12 grs. 2400, 158 gr. SWC, 6 in. barrel, 1194 fps. Larry

[Paul5388]

11.0 gr of 2400 with a CCI 550 is a max load with a 158 gr LSWC according to Speer #8.

[Alk8944]

phenson,

lebomm already said it, but I will repeat, the .38-44 was not loaded with a 200 grain bullet. It used either a 158 Lead Round-nose bullet, a 150 grain "Metal-cased" round-nose bullet, or a 150 grain metal cased "Metal-piercing" bullet that had a conical pointed bullet. The metal cased bullets had only a metal cap on the nose, with the shank or bearing surface of the bullet being bare lead.

The .38-44 muzzle velocity was advertised from 1115 to 1150 FPS. You can get in this velocity range with 6.4 gr/Unique, 7.1 gr/ 4756, 11.5 gr/2400. Without both a chronograph and original .38-44 ammunition to compare with you cannot truly duplicate the original load, but you can get in the range, depending on your barrel length. Please note that the .38-44 pressure levels ran in roughly the 25,000 to 32,000 PSI (crusher) or now referred to as CUP. These were intended specifically for the S&W .38-44 Heavy Duty and the "Outdoorsman", both N-Frame guns. These velocities are a result of personally chronographed date, not extrapolation of, or guess work based on published load data.

The 200 grain round nose bullet was loaded only in the .38 S&W Super Police, and the .38 Special Super Police. Sometimes the .38-44 has been, inaccurately, referred to as the "Super Police", but this is incorrect. Possibly this is what has you confused.

There was an article in "Handloader" sometime in the past year or so specifically about replicating the .38-44. I will let you know which issue when I find the article.

[phenson]

I guess what I'm looking for then, is a load using 2400 to create the 200 gr. Super Police load for .38 Spl. My question is what bullets do you all use, and can it be made with 2400?
Thanks

[Paul5388]

The closest I've seen is from the Lyman 45th Edition. Start at 8.0 gr 2400 with 195 gr 358430 @734 fps. Max at 9.5 gr 2400 with 195 gr 358430 @ 893 fps. They shot them out of a 6" M14.

[Alk8944]

Originally Posted by phenson

I guess what I'm looking for then, is a load using 2400 to create the 200 gr. Super Police load for .38 Spl. My question is what bullets do you all use, and can it be made with 2400?
Thanks

Still the wrong bullet! The closest mould for the correct bullet is Lyman 358430 which, I believe, is still available in the 195 gr. version. At one time there was also a 150 gr version, one band shorter. Cast very soft it will weigh about 198-199 gr.

To replicate the factory .38 Spl. "Super Police" velocity use 3.7-3.9 gr. Unique. 2400 will work, but not the most efficient.

Don't make the mistake of believing there is anything "Super" about the Super Police load. I have two boxes which I have chronographed at different times. The first, 1960s, was shot in a 1915+/- 5" M&P and gave an average velocity of 635 fps on one date and 621 fps on another. 5 round sample both times. The more recent lot which I just obtained is from sometime in the 1980s I believe. In a 6" 10-4 it gave an average velocity of 684 fps, again for a 5 round sample.

Sample size. While at least 20 rounds are needed for a reasonably close average velocity, 5 is sufficient for a good indication/approximation which is really all that is needed. Second, with something so difficult to come by you don't want to just shoot it up for curiosity!

Added:

Factory claimed velocity for the Super Police, from my early box of ammunition was 730 fps, and from the 1944 Gun Digest 745 fps. My experience in chronographing thousands of rounds of factory ammunition is that it is virtually universal that, when shot in real guns, that velocities run 50-100 fps slower, sometimes more, than their book figures indicate. So, what I have recorded for these two lots of ammunition is right in the ball park for what can be expected.

Here is some data from an older Alliant manual dated (C)1996. All are their listed maximum loads, and are for both standard and +P as noted. With this heavy bullet pressures get to +P level real fast! All were shot in a 5.6" test barrel, Federal 100 primers, case not specified.

200 gr LRN Standard: Bullseye, 3.0/760; Unique, 3.6/780; 2400, 7.0/870

200 gr LRN +P: Bullseye, 3.3/795; Unique, 3.7/800; 2400, 7.1/890

I generally rely on Alliant data and have found that generally I get ca. 100 fps lower velocity from a 6" revolver than what is indicated in the manual, just like my experience with factory loads. Note: These were carefully checked and with Unique and 2400 the difference from standard pressure to +P was just .1 gr. of powder for a mere 20 fps.

If you are interested, here is a link to the Lyman bullet mentioned: http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/b...php?entryID=14

[tops]

Originally Posted by Paul5388

11.0 gr of 2400 with a CCI 550 is a max load with a 158 gr LSWC according to Speer #8. 15.0 gr of 2400 is a .357 Mag load and will clock over 1400 fps out of a 6" barrel.

I am assuming you are mentioning the 15 gr. load because of my original post. A few minutes after I posted I realized what I had done and edited it to 12 grs. but I guess I wasn't fast enough. 15 grs. is my .357 load and it does 1429 fps. out of a 6 in. barrel. I use a Lyman book from the 60s and it list a max. charge of 12.5 grs. of 2400 for a .38 spec. at 1240 fps. 12 grs. is enough for me. Larry

[Paul5388]

I went back and edited that comment out. I just didn't want to run a chance of misinformation causing problems, but your edit took care of the situation.

I get 1420 fps with a 6" M28-2 with that 15.0 gr load in .357. That's pretty close agreement!

[Stophel]

Originally Posted by Alk8944

Don't make the mistake of beleiving there is anything "Super" about the Super Police load. I have two boxes which I have chronographed at different times. The first, 1960s, was shot in a 1915+/- 5" M&P and gave an average velocity of 635 fps on one date and 621 fps on another. 5 round sample both times. The more recent lot which I just obtained is from sometime in the 1980s I believe. In a 6" 10-4 it gave an average velocity of 684 fps, again for a 5 round sample.

Holy cow! It might not be as accurate, but I believe you could throw the bullets faster than that!

[Jim Watson]

As one witty gunzine writer of the day said, those made the appropriate challenge to a criminal fleeing in an automobile: "Halt, or I'll scratch up your paint!"

[VAdoublegunner]

Brian Pearce had an article in Handloader #243 (Oct 2006) on modern loads for the 38-44 S&W. I recommend it both for the historical background on the guns and loads as well as updated load data.

The heaviest bullet he lists is the 180gr Cast Performance WFNGC loaded over Lil'Gun for 1261 fps.

He also lists the Lyman 173 gr over 2400 for about the same velocity.

[lazy]

Originally Posted by VAdoublegunner

Brian Pearce had an article in Handloader #243 (Oct 2006) on modern loads for the 38-44 S&W. I recommend it both for the historical background on the guns and loads as well as updated load data.

The heaviest bullet he lists is the 180gr Cast Performance WFNGC loaded over Lil'Gun for 1261 fps.

He also lists the Lyman 173 gr over 2400 for about the same velocity.

So what is the 38/44 load? It sounds like a .38 case load that breaks 1000+ fps
Is it safe to use in a .38 gun? Or is this a .357 gun load only?

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by lazy

So what is the 38/44 load? It sounds like a .38 case load that breaks 1000+ fps
Is it safe to use in a .38 gun? Or is this a .357 gun load only?

Not EVERY 38spl firearm, that is the reason there are 357Mag firearms now. Some folks thought that it was for EVERY one. Ended up wearing a few extra metal parts before they were done.

It was originally designed for use in "N" frame Smith's. As NKJ_nut, a member here on the forum attests, the "N" frame Smith in 38 caliber is the strongest of all of the "N" frame revolvers because of metal left in the firearm. It could take the abuse, no problem. "K" frame, older 38Spl's, not so much.
The Outdoors Man and the 38/44 revolvers can take it just fine.

I would even go on to say that any "L" frame, M581, M586, M681, M686 could take it just fine.

In my opinion, even a "J" frame, if it is all steel and in good condition, would be a better choice to run them in rather than a "K" frame.

As with any load and firearm, work up your loads and stop when signs of overpressure appear. Each firearm is an individual. I had a M586 that had sticky extraction with THE LOAD while others ate it like candy.

FWIW

[Paul5388]

I think it was in 1930 that the .38-44 came out in response to demand for something a little more powerful for use against gangsters. It was a 158 gr bullet in the neighborhood of 1150 fps and 464 ft lbs of energy in the N frame.

[VAdoublegunner]

Originally Posted by lazy

So what is the 38/44 load? It sounds like a .38 case load that breaks 1000+ fps
Is it safe to use in a .38 gun? Or is this a .357 gun load only?

NOOOOOO!!!! as those who followed up before I saw this wisely responded.

This is strictly for classic revolvers chambered in 38-44 (mostly N-frame S&Ws and a few Colt's) or 357 magnum (there are a number of modern revolvers that were chambered in 38 Special and 357 Mag while in production simultaneously for various legal/sales reasons, e.g. the Ruger Security-Six, that may be safe to use but you would have to decide for you and your gun)

I recommend checking into a back issue of Handloader if you are interested in 38-44 loads.

His test data was developed using a S&W 38-44 Outdoorsman with a 6.5" barrel.

[ChuckS1]

Where's my Speer #8 and those pesky SR4756 loads...

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by ChuckS1

Where's my Speer #8 and those pesky SR4756 loads...

Exactly!

[Peter M. Eick]

You are not kidding. I chrono-ed some of those loads today and I was impressed!

See my 38/44 ammo thread I am about to start.

[bmcgilvray]

Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

Here's some 200 grain handload data tucked in this thread.

[Peter M. Eick]

Here is 200 grn data from yesterday.

We now need to switch to some commercial ammo. First off we are going to try some early 1960’s 200 grn Remington 38 special ammo.

6.5” 799+ 736- 63e 758m 17s
5.0” 756+ 712- 44e 738m 14s
4.0” 740+ 659- 81e 718m 23s

About what I was getting on my better loads in terms of es and sd so it seems reasonable. Interesting that we had exactly 20 fps change per inch of barrel with this stuff.

[press-1-for-english]

I realize this is an old posting but I am hoping someone out there answer my question. I have a 1937 Colt Official Police with a 6" barrel. Colt advertised these to be able to handle the 38-44 S&W round. With that being said, would it be safe to fire +P .38 Special ammo out of my Colt? It is mechanically sound. Thank you in advance for any information either positive or negative.

[Paul5388]

Since the +P is less pressure than a .38-44, I would think it should be OK to shoot +P out of it.

[press-1-for-english]

Thank you. That's what I was thinking, too.