I am looking into loading the 45-60 cartridge for a Vintage Winchester 1876 and had a few questions for those who know the cartridge. I read on the internet, so it must be true, that if I can't find .45-60 brass I can trim .45-70 brass from 2.105 to 1.89 and use it for .45-60. Will .45-70 dies work too? Is this internet info anywhere near correct?? I don't have any manuals handy, as I'm out of town at the moment, and need to know what sort of supplies I might need while I'm here in Tulsa, and, or, how much study should I do before I even begin. I do not want to risk any damage a $6,000 antique, but would like to learn how to craft loads for it. Any help from those who have experience with this round would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

.45-70 dies will not work, because the .45-60 case will be too short to reach the step in the crimping die.
You could probably size cases with it, and perhaps seat the 300 gr. bullets standard for the .45-60, but couldn't crimp the case into the bullet.
Crimping the case firmly into the bullet is critical for lever-action rifles. The bullet in each cartridge, while in the magazine tube, is under pressure from the heavy spring of the tube. Consequently, it must be firm in the case to keep it from being pushed into the case, especially during the recoil of firing.

You're in luck. The longtime standard bullet for the .45-60 is a 300 gr. lead flatpoint bullet. The mould for this bullet is still made by Lyman, the 457191, but most shooters use it in the .45-70 (where it is also a very good lighter bullet for deer and plinking).

Your 1876 Winchester's rifling is made to stabilize this 300 gr. bullet. It may not stabilize heavier bullets. I would not use 300 gr. jacketed bullets continually in that rifle; its softer barrel steel will wear quicker. But a few dozen rounds over the space of a few years wouldn't hurt.

Gad Custom Cartridges sells .45-60 ammo for $28 for 20 cartridges. Presumably, the cases are made from .45-70 brass.
It also sells bullets -- 340 gr. lead flatpoints, for $20 per 100.
Check them out at
Gad Custom Reloaded Cartridges and Shell Reloading Services

The best price in obsolete caliber dies are those made by C-H. I'm unsure if C-H makes .45-60 dies, but look for yourself at CH4D
C-H makes a TON of dies for obsolete calibers, so I'd expect it offers .45-60 dies.

Don't let some ignorant Slackjaw tell you that you can use .45-70 data in that old rifle, or increase its ballistics. The 1876 is a weak action, not nearly as strong as the 1886 Winchester.
The 1876 is simply an oversized 1873 Winchester, another model not noted for its strength.
It was plenty strong in its day with black powder, but can be damaged or blown with too much, or the wrong kind of, smokeless powder.

This said, Cartridges of the World 8th edition recommends IMR4198 -- 25 grs. -- under the Lyman 457191 bullet that typically runs 300 to 320 grains, depending on bullet alloy. This gives about 1,400 fps.

Handloader magazine No. 111 (p. 18) of Sept./Oct. 1984 contains a few load suggestions from Ken Waters.
He suggested trimming .45-70 cases to 1.89 inches.
Waters suggested using 300 gr. hollowpoints, but he doesn't say whether they should be lead or jacketed. I suspect jacketed.
With a 300 gr. bullet, Waters said that MAXIMUM loads would be:
2400 - 20 grs.
IMR-4227 -- 22 grs.
IMR-4198 -- 24 grs.
Because these are considered MAXIMUM loads, I'd reduce these loads by at least 10 percent.

If you use the 340 gr. bullets from Gad Custom Cartridge, then I'd reduce these loads by 15 percent.
Do NOT use a wad of tissue, felt wad or any kind of wad on the powder, to keep it close to the primer, regardless what you're told by the Slackjaws.
This practice can damage the chamber by leaving a ring in it.

If you plan to reload with black powder, use FFG or use Pyrodex RS grade. I would not use Hodgdon 777 as it's tricky stuff.

With black powder or Pyrodex, fill the case to within 1/4" of the case mouth. The seated bullet will compress the powder slightly, a condition at which it ignites and burns best.
Use pure lead, or very soft lead, bullets if you use black powder or Pyrodex. These bullets should be lubricated with a soft, moist lubricant designed for black powder: SPG, Lyman Black Powder Gold or a homebrew lubricant composed of:

1 part mutton tallow
1 part canning paraffin
1/2 part beeswax
All measurements are by weight, not volume.

This homebrew lubricant recipe, named after me some years ago as Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant, is based upon a factory bullet recipe from the 19th century. The ratios are the same, but the ingredients are more specific than the old recipe I found.
Mutton tallow is sold by Dixie Gun Works.
Use real beeswax. Toilet seals sold years ago were once made of beeswax, but have been petroleum-based for the past dozen years or so. Take the time to find real beeswax, the synthetic stuff makes an inferior bullet lubricant.

Petroleum-based lubricants, such as those used with smokeless powder, create a hard, tarry fouling when used with black powder or Pyrodex. You need a lubricant that is based on natural fats, oils or greases to avoid this.
Yes, canning paraffin is a petroleum product but apparently it lacks the hydrocarbons that cause the hard, tarry fouling.

When you order from Gad Custom Cartridge, ask if they use a black powder lubricant. This lubricant will also work fine with smokeless powder.

You have a nice, old rifle. Take care of it by treating it kindly. It's powerful enough for deer, but I wouldn't tackle larger game with it. Winchester introduced it to provide a rifle with ballistics a little better than the .44-40, but it's not nearly in the same league as the .45-70.

The above should get you started. Let us know how it works out.

Buffalo Arms has Jamison brass and three different die sets. I had the RCBS Legacy set, which is very reasonably priced. I used the smokeless info from the Lyman 49th Edition Handbook (brand new version) in my Uberti reproduction. I use IMR 4198 in most of my antique rifles. For the most part, good, usable loads can be made with IMR 4198 that are very easy on the gun.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=4427

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GMC-USN, Retired/1978 to 2001

There is a longe range black powder cartridge forum on the net. Worth visiting.

Also go to "cascity" on the net and go to their forums and there is a forum dedicated to the 1876 Winchester. Definitely worth the visit. "grizzly Adams" who moderates the 1876 forum knows just about everything you may need to know. If he does not he will direct to someone who does. Go to here: Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L - Index and then scroll down to the 1876 forum.

You may also wish to go to "buffalo arms" they sell a lot of the items needed to shoot the 1876 Winchester.

If you try to compress a black powder load with you soft cast lead bullet they can deform. Most of the experienced shooters use a "compression die". However you can purchase the stem and install it into a standard die body. Compressing the powder before seating the bullet allows one to put more powder in the case. However modern brass does allow as much powder as the older "balloon head" brass. In a .45-60 you may only get 56 grains or so even with compression. Some shooters compress their loads a LOT and report no problems. Others report too much compression affects accuracy. I think its a matter of experimentation and each rifle is a rule unto itself.

The commercial, or homemade wax/cardboard wads used in blackpowder cartridges are designed to protect the bases of the soft lead bullets from melting due to the hot gases. Also the most favorite bullet lube is SPG.

Federal 215 magnum large rifle primers used to be the preferred primer. The hotter the primer the better the ignition of black powder.

If a maximum load for a black powder cartridge is 60 grains. Begin your loads within a grain or so of that maximum. If you start your load 5 grains or so below and try to work it up, accuracy will be affected. I shoot a Uberti 1876 clone in .45-75. I worked up a sweet load as about 65 grains, when I took up to about 70 grains (maximum in reformed .348 Winchester case) my accuracy went south.

Good luck and happy birthday Leatherneck!

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

Thank you guys very much for getting me pointed in the right direction. This is exactly what I needed to know.

__________________
Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

If the only reason 45-70 dies cannot be used is the crimping die will not work, then you can shorten the crimping die. I have done this several time over the years with excellent results. I shorten the die by using the side of my grinding wheel and grind a new beverl with a Dremel tool. I then polish the new bevel to a mirror finish with the Dremel. And that die can still be used to crimp 45-70 with no problems. Dean

Since it's a real Antique I plan on starting low and keeping it low, just making loads for punching holes in paper, Cowboy loads but with non-corrosive powder.

+1 on cutting down the crimp die, I didn't think it would be that easy, I have three sets of .45-70 dies and I think I can sacrifice one crimp die for the cause.

__________________
Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

Resurrecting this thread in order to seek more comment on the use of IMR 4198 in the .45-60 for use in an 1883 vintage Winchester Model 1876.

I've had great luck with IMR 4198 in mild charges in a Model 1884 Springfield Trapdoor .45-70 rifle. I wouldn't expect problems to be encountered in the weak ol' action, but want to hear from others with experience.with original Winchesters in this chambering.

The internet is conflicted on the use of smokeless powder in the Model 1876. I've used smokeless in a Winchester Modek 1873 with perfect satisfaction for many years.

The use of smokeless powder in an original 1876 will most likely cause too much stress to the bolt linkage form the pressure impulse not the high pressure achieved!

I like Shockley's Yellow Gold, black powder substitute more that any Pyrodex, because of the sulfur. You still need to clean the same day!

I like Black Powder better than Shockley's, but shipping is a big problem with BP!

I use a bullet lube made 50/50 of Crisco and paraffine or use SPG lube. Too little lube cause crusty fouling and difficult cleaning! Too much lube causes excess lube to run out you muzzle with no ill effect, so error on the side of too much!

I don't load 45-60, but do load 45-70BP for an '86 and a friend loads 45-75 for an '76 and we both use an over the powder card with a 1/8" to 3/16" "cookie" of lube below the bullet!

To save wear and tear on your rifle, stay away from jacketed bullets and hard lead alloys like wheel weights or linotype! My 86 likes 30-1 alloy, my Sharps prefers pure lead, my 1885 in 38-55 prefers 20-1.

On single shots, I add more lube by smearing the outside front of the cartridge in a lube that stays firm in the weather you're shooting in. Straight Crisco on cool days and the 50/50 on hot days. (Too messy in a lever gun, but I did try!)

Ivan

Dies for crafting the 45-60 are available from Brownells.

If that were my gun I would be using Black Powder or more realistically a BP substitute. AA5744 isn't a bad choice either. I use it in the 45-70 for ammo shot in my original Trapdoor. It works well for me.

I would probably stay away from Trail Boss. The pressures it develops aren't as low as most think. Unfortunately the low velocity it produces doesn't relate into low pressures.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I don't expect I'll fire the rifle much more than a couple hundred times in my life. I did spring for Bertram brass .45-60 WCF and ordered out .45-60 dies from Huntington while I was at it.

I'm planning on whacking a whitetail this coming season with the old rifle, just to say I did it.

There is some FFg and FFFg around here. I've not fiddled with black powder substitutes. I've not investigated AA5574 or Shockley's Yellow Gold black powder substitute, but appreciate the suggestions which will give me something further to investigate.

I've heard good things about mild Trail Boss charges in the oldie 19th century rifles, but never have used it either.

I'm more traditional. Even yet, I still categorize powders in the DuPont, Hercules, and Hodgdon categories of my pea brain and tend to stay with current production of those same ol' propellants. Ok, that clinches it. I'm real traditional and old fashioned.

In my 76 have shot hundreds and hundreds of rounds using 5744 powder. It is a good powder for old rifles. My 45-60 likes the 300 grainers and what is was meant to shoot. I cast my bullets from 1-30 alloy from RotoMetals using a old lyman .459 mold and do not re-size them, just load as cast..For lube, I use a home made product wiping it on with my fingers as I don't care for hard lubes..If having a lubersizer, you can use BAC lube from Lars that does not require a heater, or Lars Blue that needs the heater.
I use cut down 45-70 cases but found it necessary to remove .002 from the rim as these rifles sometimes have shallow rim cut for the older cases.

lastly, if loading the above mentioned powder to original 45-60 black powder vel you will have a smooth shooting rifle that is quite powerful and totally safe to shoot if in good condition and will thump deere with ease at 100yds and more. A few kernals of this powder will be seen in the bore after shooting but it's no big deal and just pushes out with a patch when cleaning..This bugs some people but no real logic to why..I load and shoot for 20 antique winchesters without any issues using this great powder..I suggest you remove the action side plate and inspect the toggle link system for abuse, also the bolt for the same reason. 45-60 rifles used 60 grains of Black power so in reality they were powerful rifles. Let us remember, the Calvary loads of the 45-70 carbine trapdoors were 55 grains of black and many big game animals were taken with them to feed the army soldiers..

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GC45

Just a warning, TrailBoss does not produce ammo with pressures which are low like most shooters think. Like I said above, low velocity doesn't always translate into low pressures.

AA5744 on the other hand does produce fairly low pressures in large originally BP cartridges similar to what SR4759 used to produce. In the Lyman 4th Edition Cast Bullet Handbook for the 45-70 Trapdoor loads with a 292gr bullet it generated the lowest pressure of the 7 powders tested right next to SR4759.

BUT

A BP substitute is probably the best way to protect a classic 1876.
The Shockey Gold BP substitute is probably the best choice available today like said above.
Accurate Blackhorn BP substitute is also none corrosive and not a bad choice.
Alliant Black MZ used to be a choice too but according to their site it's been discontinued.
I don't think Hodgdon Pyrodex and Triple 7 are clean BP substitutes.
IMR White Hots are clean but unfortunately they only come in pellet form.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Here are the two caliber dimensions.




One only has to have a set of 45-60 dies to reform after cutting to length. Use a very good case lube and take your time so as not to get the case stuck in the die.

Trail Boss will work perfectly in that case, since it offers large volume displacement in the case resulting in more uniform ballistics shot to shot. I have shot just about all the 45 rifle calibers and found Trail Boss to be a great powder for the old and new leverguns. They can be loaded to match velicicites of BP and result in lower pressures. Black powder it s pain to clean and especially hard in Winchester leverguns. Soap and water is not the easiest thing to use when one cannot get at all the mechanism and will often get the wood wet every time come back from the range and clean. Many BP substitutes are hotter than the original 2F loads and will rust guns just as fast as the original, so I will not use them. You can obtain 1300fps from Trail Boss loads and that is plenty fast enough to shoot accurately out to 300 yards.

The Model 1876 is not a high power rifle, since they are copied and enlarged from the 1873 which only shot pistol calibers, but plenty strong enough to load Trail Boss for fun outings at the range.

Attached Images

	45-60 Dimensions.gif (8.7 KB, 51 views)
	45-70 Government64.gif (5.1 KB, 50 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Get a proper set of reloading dies ... it will make everything much easier.
RCBS , Redding and even Lee sell proper dies .

If you dont have a bench already set up ... Lee makes a Hand Press that allows you to load ammo anywhere ... I use them on all handgun sitting at my computer desk or kitchen table . The press is held with your hands not bolted to a bench .
If new to reloading , I would order a Lee Hand Press KIT... it comes with extra's that are needed , and a set of Lee Dies ... black powder and primers and you will be all set to begin reloading .
If you are already a reloader then please disreguard the above info ... you know all this .
I would stick with black powder and modern cleaning products ... a fine antique rifle shouldn't be pushed too hard ... they have earned some TLC ...
Good Luck
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

. . . or you can look for a used RCBS Rock Chucker press on ebay. The reason why I mention this is that reforming cases require a strong press and sometimes a strong back as well. You should not have too much trouble with converting the 45-70 case to 45-60, but sometimes the case will stick in the press after the case is reformed requiring substantial upward pressure to pull it out of the case. Of course, once resized they will load with ease.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Man!

I am all ears on all this stuff.

Sure am appreciating all the comment.

I'm a bit ahead of the .46-60 game, having laid in two boxes of Bertram .45-60 brass along with a box of .45-60 brass reformed from .45-70. I also picked up .45-60 dies from Huntington.

The Rockchucker? My little bride of 6 weeks saw to it that I had a Rockchucker beneath the Christmas Tree...

... Christmas of 1978. We'll be married 44 years this November.