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Old 12-09-2012, 09:34 PM
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Default Winchester primers...huge issues

hey guys. I have been reloading .45acp and .40s&w with winchester primers. I havent had a problem untill today. Out of 125 .45 rounds, I had 2 fail to fires. Out of 100 .40s&w I had 3. All 5 rounds had good dimples on the primers. I took them home and weighed them. All 5 weighed the amount they should so I know I didnt forget to charge them.
The .45s have power pistol in them and the .40s had bullseye.
Anyone have any issues with winchester primers?
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:40 PM
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Never had an issue. With good firing pin marks and no ignition, the primers could have been contaminated during the loading process, bad to begin with, or not seated deep enough to bottom out the anvil and compress the primer pellet.

Failure to bottom out the anvil is the most common reason followed by contamination. Although bad primers happen, it's not very common.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:15 PM
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dmax, 12/10/12

I've run about 70,000 Winchester primers through my machines in the last six years and have never had any problems (small pistol, large pistol, large rifle and shotgun). The only exception is when I get a high primer which would occur if I failed to fully seat the primer or if I had a really dirty primer pocket. Since I've started using Stainless Steel media in a rotary tumbler (after depriming the cases) all my primer pockets are clean and I haven't had a high primer in 5,000 rounds.

I case-gauge each and every round after reloading and also check for high primers (I like to hold up the round in front of a white wall where it's easy to spot a high primer). Each primer should be a few thousandths below the edges of the primer pocket.

One way to confirm a high primer is to fire the suspected round again. Usually the first hammer/striker hit will fully seat the primer and the second time it is hit it will fire.

Good luck and Merry Christmas- oldandslow
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:16 AM
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Did you try to fire those rounds a second time? Most fail-to-fires result from a improper seated primer. The first strike fully seats the primer and a second strike will usually fire the round.

Like above, I have loaded many Thousands of Winchester primers and not 1 has failed to fire. (same with CCI)
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmaxboy08 View Post
. Out of 100 .40s&w I had 3. All 5 rounds had good dimples on the primers. I took them home and weighed them. All 5 weighed the amount they should so I know I didnt forget to charge them.
Weighing the cartridges (powder or not) has nothing to do with a primer igniting. Plus weighing will not even tell if you have powder in them.

A squib (no powder) with the primer igniting will still make a pop or sound. As Arch stated did you re strike the failures??
I have never had a dud with a Win large or small primer.

How do you prime? On the press or by a hand tool?
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:44 AM
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Roger that...


Been having a string of primer problems with Winchester primers; Large pistol.

I'll never use them again.


.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:03 AM
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Federal have been my problem primers as of late. I've loaded and still load thousands upon thousands of Winchester primers and I can still count on one hand the amount of duds. Federal... I think I need a thrid hand to count how many failures I've had in the last two boxes.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:47 AM
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Haven't had any misfires in a long time with any brand. The only two ever were CCIs, but not from the same lot.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
Did you try to fire those rounds a second time? Most fail-to-fires result from a improper seated primer. The first strike fully seats the primer and a second strike will usually fire the round.

Like above, I have loaded many Thousands of Winchester primers and not 1 has failed to fire. (same with CCI)
This is good info
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:44 AM
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I haven't had any faliures to fire, but while priming 1000 45 acp cases recently, I did have a heck of a time getting them seated. I've never seen such tight primers in anything! I'm new to reloading the 45ACP. Is this common? I've never seen it with any revolver cartridges, or rifle cartridges.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:20 AM
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It might be your primer pockets are not true. I use a RCBS primer pocket cutter tool on my new brass to clean out/ recut my pockets and have no primer problems. This really only needs to be done one time to each piece of brass and you are good to go for the life of the brass.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:56 AM
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Can you check to see if the primers are high, pull the bullets, remove the powder, and then SLOWLY and CAREFULLY remove the primer and tell us if the primer ignited and also if the primer pocket is clean?
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:13 PM
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Question: A possible problem with contamination of the primers was mentioned. For those of you with vast experience reloading, what is the usual cause of this and how easy (or hard) is it to do?
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:19 PM
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I have not had any problems with pistol primers but about ten years back there was a problem with their w209 shotgun primers. Went with Cheddite and Federal for a year.........

Tried the wsmp in 38 loads and went back to the regular primer since there was no improvement in accuracy.

I always clean the primer pockets before priming so I can get maximum depths and very seldom have a misfire with the win,cci and federal primers.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:19 PM
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Primers are extemely reliable as a rule of thumb, not to say its impossible to have manufacturing defects. Ive never had an issue with any. Weighing loaded ammo with small charge weights and mixed headstamps is a poor way to check for powder charges, pull the bullets. Most of the time a primer in a empty case will be enough to force the bullet out and lodge it in the barrel so chances are the primers didnt fire.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:52 PM
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Why are so many people (whatever it is) so quick to blame equipment or parts for a failure. Not directed to anyone here but there are so many variables that are at play. A couple primers not igniting is not a HUGE issue when there is no data to suggest it is the primer itself. Winchesters are one of the easiest primers to seat, and are very reliable

Can there be a problem with them, perhaps, but if I was a betting Man I would say it's something else.

I changed some springs in my 625. It didn't go bang with Win Primers. Maybe Federal would work but I do not have any.. It was the light main spring, I did not blame it, it is what it is, I put the original back in.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:27 PM
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I too changed the mainspring in my 625 to a MR JERRY'S, man can that guy shoot a revolver.

I now use Federal primers only in that S&W JM625.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:33 PM
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I had a FTF with a win primer, 9mm/W231.
Tried twice. Nice dimple, no bang.
Tried two different guns even.
I've yet to dissassemble to determine a cause, if possible.

it's seated deeply enough so I'm assuming a defective primer or it got wet/contaminated. I had a couple do that when I was in a hurry to reload a batch of brass. I spray lube my cases as it makes them much easier to resize. I've since learned to be 110% sure they're dry as it doesn't take much wet lube to make a dud round. (lee lube cut with water and alcohol)
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:08 PM
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If in doubt, notify the manufacturer.

Many more things for the RELOADER TO SCREW UP,

than the manufacturer with the handling, storing, and

installation of the primers.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:37 PM
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I too changed the mainspring in my 625 to a MR JERRY'S, man can that guy shoot a revolver.

I now use Federal primers only in that S&W JM625.
AND, if I remember right, it says that on the package!

I bought a M625JM and it would NOT light off a CCI, Winchester or Wolf consistently. I took a spent primer, pulled the anvil, backed out the strain screw and put the cup side out, between the screw and spring and tightened it all back up. No problems now, none.


The problem here is as AA has stated, those primers were not seated like they should have been to start with. The first hit seated them but, they have to have the anvil captured and resting on the primer pocket or they will not go off. Pull them and remove all powder and such from them. Then, put them in your gun, point them in a safe direction and hit them again.

A primer going off is not safe to point at anything you do not want to injure so, remember, it can cause bodily injury so be safe.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregintenn View Post
I haven't had any faliures to fire, but while priming 1000 45 acp cases recently, I did have a heck of a time getting them seated. I've never seen such tight primers in anything! I'm new to reloading the 45ACP. Is this common? I've never seen it with any revolver cartridges, or rifle cartridges.

What sort of priming tool are you using?

I use the Lee Auto Prime and I've found if you don't lube the contact points on the tool a little some cases can be a real pain to prime. I used it for years until I got a batch of 45 Colt cases and discovered this.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:18 PM
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I have a ongoing e mail with Wolff springs. They supply SW with the reduced mainspring for the PC revolvers. The JM is really a Pro series not a PC but regardless, I put the Type 2 reduced mainspring in it and it barely made a dimple in the primer, I knew as soon as I installed it and dry fired it that it was too light and would not work.

My PC 327, 357 went back to SW twice for light strikes, crane, firing pin and new mainspring.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:25 PM
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Rule3,

I swapped out the JM625 mainspring with one from Jerry's company.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
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What sort of priming tool are you using?

I use the Lee Auto Prime and I've found if you don't lube the contact points on the tool a little some cases can be a real pain to prime. I used it for years until I got a batch of 45 Colt cases and discovered this.
Thanks. I use the Lee hand primer. I'll try lubing the pivot points. I've used it dry to date, and this is the first time I've had this trouble. Primed some rifle cases after the 45 brass with no trouble.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:54 PM
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From Brownell's on the JM spring kit page:
Quote:
SPECS: Spring steel. Fits K, L and N frame revolvers. For best results, ammo should use Federal primers.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:56 PM
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Weighing the cartridges (powder or not) has nothing to do with a primer igniting. Plus weighing will not even tell if you have powder in them.

A squib (no powder) with the primer igniting will still make a pop or sound. As Arch stated did you re strike the failures??
I have never had a dud with a Win large or small primer.

How do you prime? On the press or by a hand tool?
how will weighing the cartridges not tell you if they have powder in them? Im not trying to smart or anything(im new to this and still learning) but if I take a good know round powder and all and weigh it, wouldnt it weigh less if it didnt have 7.0g of powder in it?
I did not try and fire the round again. To be honest I was nervous about doing it because I have never ran into this issue before. I prime by a lee hand tool. After every time I inspect the primer and they are flush with the brass case.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:27 PM
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Between the bullets and the cases there will be tremendous variance in weight. You wouldn't think it but give it a try.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Why are so many people (whatever it is) so quick to blame equipment or parts for a failure. Not directed to anyone here but there are so many variables that are at play. A couple primers not igniting is not a HUGE issue when there is no data to suggest it is the primer itself. Winchesters are one of the easiest primers to seat, and are very reliable
Can there be a problem with them, perhaps, but if I was a betting Man I would say it's something else.

I changed some springs in my 625. It didn't go bang with Win Primers. Maybe Federal would work but I do not have any.. It was the light main spring, I did not blame it, it is what it is, I put the original back in.
When I reload, I load 100 rounds in one setting. When its .45acp I use 230 RN hornady bullet, winchester primer, 7.0g of power pistol, seated to a depth of 1.230. I seat each primer the same way with a lee hand primer. When I charge the case, i do one at a time and place them in a tray. When im done, i look over each round to make sure powder is in them and they look equal.
These failures I had were in a 100 count batch. Could I have made a mistake? Yes. Im not perfect. I pulled the bullet out. There was 7.0 grains of power pistol in it. I removed the primer, and it did not show any signs of being ignited. Did I not seat it enough? Possible. I have reloaded alittle of 1000 rounds of .45acp and .40s combined. Still very new. It just seemed wierd that I had more than 1 misfire with 2 different size primers that just had to be of the same brand.
None of my guns are altered and have factory parts in them.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:43 PM
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how will weighing the cartridges not tell you if they have powder in them? Im not trying to smart or anything(im new to this and still learning) but if I take a good know round powder and all and weigh it, wouldnt it weigh less if it didnt have 7.0g of powder in it?
I did not try and fire the round again. To be honest I was nervous about doing it because I have never ran into this issue before. I prime by a lee hand tool. After every time I inspect the primer and they are flush with the brass case.
Because there is enough variance in the other components that with handgun loads, usually less than 10gr of powder, it is virtually impossible to tell. THE ONLY WAY where they could be close is if all of the brass was made on one die or mould on the same day from the same material and the bullets were the same and primers too. And, no, that is not how they are produced!
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:18 PM
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DMAX,
Was the question: Did you try to restrike, refire the dud rounds been answered??

Your reloading method is excellent, checking each round in the loading tray. The Lee hand proper works very well also. I speculate you just did not seat them firmly on a few of them. I have done the same thing. Try a few more, if they do not fire, re chamber and fire them again. If they go off then that's the problem. Simple.

What I was saying was this. Having powder of any amount in the case has Nothing to do with the primer igniting or not.

You can load a cartridge with NO powder. seat a bullet and primer and when the firing pin hits the primer it will go POP instead of BANG. There is enough force to move the bullet out into the barrel and you will have a squib stuck in the barrel. If you fire the next round and it has full powder, the bullet will jam into the stuck bullet and very bad things will happen.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
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DMAX,
Was the question: Did you try to restrike, refire the dud rounds been answered??

Your reloading method is excellent, checking each round in the loading tray. The Lee hand proper works very well also. I speculate you just did not seat them firmly on a few of them. I have done the same thing. Try a few more, if they do not fire, re chamber and fire them again. If they go off then that's the problem. Simple.

What I was saying was this. Having powder of any amount in the case has Nothing to do with the primer igniting or not.

You can load a cartridge with NO powder. seat a bullet and primer and when the firing pin hits the primer it will go POP instead of BANG. There is enough force to move the bullet out into the barrel and you will have a squib stuck in the barrel. If you fire the next round and it has full powder, the bullet will jam into the stuck bullet and very bad things will happen.
okay thank you very much for the help. I did not try to shoot the rounds a second time. I have never ever had this happen to me so I really did not know what to do. I will pay more attention to the primer seating from now on. I usually run the finger over it and if i feel alittle nub i try to reseat but now i will give it more detail.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:17 AM
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Sounds like you got plenty of advice here, especially for a new handloader. I suspect that the primers were not seated firmly enough. A handprimer is a good method, but sometimes it is easy to go a little light on one and not really notice it. I used a Lee for about 20 years before I started doing most of my loading on a progressive (Hornady Pro-Jector, then a pair of L-N-Ls).

I have always found Win primers to be among the most reliable, and have used many cases of them over the years in an attempt to prove it so.

I have a S&W 625-8 that somebody tried to IDPA-to-death, i.e. get the lightest and most unreliable trigger pull ever, which of course resulted in the lightest hammer strike you could actually have that would probably fail to dent tinfoil. And extended length firing pin, a real mainspring, and a correct tension screw fixed most of that, but it still misfired sometimes in DA (not SA) with Win primers. On a suggestion, I started cleaning the primer pockets for them and that helped (Federal primers also worked well). Lesson learned: primers sometimes "feel" well seated but crud in the primer pocket means they may not be so. A second strike would set them off. It's not necessary to do a primer pocket clean if you make sure to seat primers firmly, I doubt many of us actually do unless it is for that special "magic bullet" hunting load, but is something to consider if you are only loading 100 at a time or wish to make absolutely certainly they have the best chance of seating properly and firing when they should.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:10 AM
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Considering all the possibilities, factory error, while certainly possible, is less probable than operator error. The most likely operator error is improper seating, which I (and probably all of us) have done more than a few times on our way towards getting good at this hobby. Usually, a second strike will tell you if that is the problem. If that is not it, I would look at contamination. Are you lubing your cases? With what? Do you let them dry? Try a batch with no case lube at all, at least if making handgun loads. Do you clean your press? How, and with what? Oil, and especially penetrating oil or solvent will kill primers permanently. Clean the press with alcohol, then blow it with compressed air (you can buy cans at computer stores). You'll get there.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
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Considering all the possibilities, factory error, while certainly possible, is less probable than operator error. The most likely operator error is improper seating, which I (and probably all of us) have done more than a few times on our way towards getting good at this hobby. Usually, a second strike will tell you if that is the problem. If that is not it, I would look at contamination. Are you lubing your cases? With what? Do you let them dry? Try a batch with no case lube at all, at least if making handgun loads. Do you clean your press? How, and with what? Oil, and especially penetrating oil or solvent will kill primers permanently. Clean the press with alcohol, then blow it with compressed air (you can buy cans at computer stores). You'll get there.
I do not lube any handgun cases. I clean my press once a month. I remove the ram rod and spray clean with brake part cleaner then put a light film of gun oil on it and reassemble. I take the head off and clean and lube.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:43 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean when you say you lube the head. If there is a chance that lube gets to the primers, maybe you can live without it. This update seems to suggest the seating is the culprit, however. Another easy way to check seating depth is to stand the loaded rounds up. High primers will cause the cartridge to rock a bit and lean over.
I guess the next step is to take the failed rounds back to the range and try them again. Hope they fire this time. That would end the suspense.
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