Need help on HBWC flush seating dies and....

[ontargetagain]

I am reloading for a Model 52 S&W 148gr HBWC's so flush seated is the goal. I have loaded up Hornady HBWC's and they have worked well overall as far as seating and crimping.

Just picked up 1k Zero Bullet 148 HBWC's. These measured for me at .3585, the Hornady .3575 in diameter. Went to load some last night and was getting some bullet shaving, also my Lyman seating die was deforming the leading edge of the bullet it appears, almost like it is cutting into it a bit and leaving a very thin secondary lip on the bullet perimeter (I know this may require to post a few pics later to better show it).

The brass I am using is R-P brass which seems to be the overall the largest ID of any of my other headstamp brands.

Is there a preferred seating stem that conforms to a button nose soft lead bullet? I need to probably expand and flare a bit more to reduce the seating friction and the slight shaving?
It seems to me that a profile on the the seating die that seats by pressing the wadcutter inside the outside rim would be a better solution??

Share your thougths, pics and solutions please and thanks
Karl

[USSR]

First, Lyman Type M expander die. Second, take you seating die stem that is for round nose bullets, fill it with J-B Weld until flush, let it set up, then use that.

Don

[Wise_A]

Couple things.

(1) What you've probably got is the difference between a bullet sized to .358, and a bullet sized to .357. If you have your cases expanded to the absolute minimum, then yes--that will make a difference. I like to expand just enough to get the bullet started into the case.

(2) The inner diameter of the case doesn't matter when it comes to seating the bullet. What matters is case length. A longer case expands more than a shorter one, at a given setting on the expander die. Differences in length in .38 Spl can be quite noticeable. I stick to Winchester cases myself, but only for the reason that when I sorted through my stash, they were the most common.

(3) I've loaded soft 12 BHN case wadcutters, but haven't had opportunity to use swaged. But I've not seen any sort of deformation from a seating stem, ever. I would try opening up the case a smidge more and see if that corrects the problem.

[lebomm]

+1 slightly more belling

[Vulcan Bob]

I'll second the use of the Lyman M type expander die. I also use a taper crimp die with the flush seated jobbers rather than a light roll crimp for a nice smooth result.

[ontargetagain]

Originally Posted by USSR

First, Lyman Type M expander die. Second, take you seating die stem that is for round nose bullets, fill it with J-B Weld until flush, let it set up, then use that.

Don

Yes Don I do have the Lyman 'M' expander die, was recommended a while back to me.
I am considering modifying a stem to best work with the wadcutters thanks.
Karl

[ontargetagain]

Originally Posted by Wise_A

Couple things.

(1) What you've probably got is the difference between a bullet sized to .358, and a bullet sized to .357. If you have your cases expanded to the absolute minimum, then yes--that will make a difference. I like to expand just enough to get the bullet started into the case.

Like you I only expand enough to start the bullet but tonight I opened them up a bit more and it helped.

(2) The inner diameter of the case doesn't matter when it comes to seating the bullet. What matters is case length. A longer case expands more than a shorter one, at a given setting on the expander die. Differences in length in .38 Spl can be quite noticeable. I stick to Winchester cases myself, but only for the reason that when I sorted through my stash, they were the most common.

I'll check my case lengths for variance

(3) I've loaded soft 12 BHN case wadcutters, but haven't had opportunity to use swaged. But I've not seen any sort of deformation from a seating stem, ever. I would try opening up the case a smidge more and see if that corrects the problem.

Yes I think the slightly more expansion is on the right track at this point

Thanks for the input...Oh geeez and after looking at what 'blue' looks like in print I will use a different color next time!! Yikes
Karl

[ontargetagain]

Originally Posted by Vulcan Bob

I'll second the use of the Lyman M type expander die. I also use a taper crimp die with the flush seated jobbers rather than a light roll crimp for a nice smooth result.

I think I will try taper and or Lee Factory Crimp dies too, thanks for the suggestions
Karl

[BC38]

What is the problem with seating a flat nosed WC with a standard round nosed seating stem? I've used the standard seating stem in my Lee dies to seat RN, RNFP, LSWC,and WC and button-nosed WC bullet profiles with no issue.

As long as your round is centered under the seating die and the bullet is set into the case mouth fairly straight to start with, the seating stem will stand the bullet up straight and push it straight down into the case. I haven't had a single one go in crooked or weird - at least not so far - regardless of the bullet profile.

I don't understand the need for a seating stem with a different profile. What am I missing?

[ontargetagain]

Originally Posted by BC38

What is the problem with seating a flat nosed WC with a standard round nosed seating stem? I've used the standard seating stem in my Lee dies to seat RN, RNFP, LSWC,and WC and button-nosed WC bullet profiles with no issue.

As long as your round is centered under the seating die and the bullet is set into the case mouth fairly straight to start with, the seating stem will stand the bullet up straight and push it straight down into the case. I haven't had a single one go in crooked or weird - at least not so far - regardless of the bullet profile.

I don't understand the need for a seating stem with a different profile. What am I missing?

I haven't had issues seating them straight using standard bullet stem. I don't know if you have seated the ultra soft lead HBWC's that have a very thin and sharp outside perimeter lip? The outside lip is fragile and that is part of the issue I am looking to resolve. These Zero HBWC's are challenging me more than what the Hornady's for some reason..........thus looking for a better solution for 'pushing them in' without distorting the bullet rim if that makes sense
Karl

[BC38]

Originally Posted by ontargetagain

I haven't had issues seating them straight using standard bullet stem. I don't know if you have seated the ultra soft lead HBWC's that have a very thin and sharp outside perimeter lip? The outside lip is fragile and that is part of the issue I am looking to resolve. These Zero HBWC's are challenging me more than what the Hornady's for some reason..........thus looking for a better solution for 'pushing them in' without distorting the bullet rim if that makes sense
Karl

I haven't loaded any really soft lead.
If you are then I guess that might be what makes the difference...

[ontargetagain]

Originally Posted by BC38

I haven't loaded any really soft lead.
If you are then I guess that might be what makes the difference...

I have been able to seat and crimp in one step with the other HBWC's, I think I will rethink this on the Zero bullet and likely make it a two step process from now on.
Thanks
Karl

[BC38]

Originally Posted by ontargetagain

I have been able to seat and crimp in one step with the other HBWC's, I think I will rethink this on the Zero bullet and likely make it a two step process from now on.
Thanks
Karl

That sounds like a good solution to me. The crimping-while-the-bullet-is-still-moving action of one-step seating and crimping is undoubtedly contributing to the problem.

That is the other thing I should have mentioned - I always do the seating and crimping in separate steps. It is an extra pull of the handle, but I have never experienced any issues with my crimps - even when doing a REALLY heavy roll crimp on full-power loads with heavy bare-lead slugs.

[cfplinker]

FWIW I seat the wadcutters for my 52 to an overall length of 1.155 which leaves about 1/64 inch outside the case for the taper crimp to grab onto. As long as the overall length is at or below 1.177 they will feed through my magazines. If you are going to seat them so there is lead beyond the case mouth be sure to do a plunk test with your barrel.

[Drm50]

The expansion may be a issue which can be solved easily. I
am not a match shooter and have never loaded thousands of
HBWCs at one time but I have in 357 & 44 mg with cast bullets.
I have always seated and crimped as separate steps. I did this
because of tendency of some shaved lead and accumulated lube.
I think it saves time and problems in the long run. Since I'm
taking the time to put out the best ammo I can it's a no brainer
to me. As for the seating stem the one that contacts the most
surface is the best. On soft HBWCs you would only contact the
button with a flat stem, some RN stems may work better for you
by spanning the button and directing the force on shoulders of
the WC bullet nose.

[USSR]

In the reloading course I teach, I teach that rimless cartridges such as used in autoloaders, the taper crimp should be a separate operation. Flush seated .38 HBWC's which are also taper crimped, fall into the same category.

Don

[metricmonkeywrench]

Just to mention I would also check into the RCBS cowboy expander stems, there are three different sizes to accommodate the lead bullets and expand a lot deeper than a standard expander. I believe I have the .358 installed in a standard die set body that I am experimenting with some wad cutters. It totally eliminated any shaving and hard seating issues.

[ontargetagain]

UPDATE:
A little more expansion, seat bullet now then crimp with Lee Factory Crimp Die and they are looking good now
I will see how they feed and tinker with amount of final crimp. Taper crimp looks good on the finish.
Thanks for all the input!
Karl

[625smith]

I use a seater from my 32 mag die. Then taper crimp in the next station.