Can anyone recommend a good plus P load (powder and primers) for 125 gr jacketed Remington bullets for use in a 2" 38 special revolver?

Thanks, Joe

Re Posting this thread. Please do some of the work.

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it just needs more voltage

Take a look at the WW reloading site. 231 would be a place to start.

What manuals do you have? Where have you looked on line. What powder companies data do you have??

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Still Running Against the Wind

Both Hodgdon and Alliant have good on line references for .38+p. Google is your friend. But I assume your manual/manuals have plenty also.

Actually, gentlemen, I have a wide variety of manuals, powder company data, info off the handloader websites etc. I was looking for a recommendation from someone more experienced than I for something that they had developed for short barreled Smith revolvers. I posted here because I assumed that this would be where specialists in this area might be; people who's experience and expertise I value.

Although there are many cookbooks in the house, if I were looking for a recipe for an untried dish I would probably seek the opinion of someone at a web forum dedicated to the specialty under the assumption that they might know a good one and be interested in sharing. Sorry.

Best, Joe

.

With all due respect, the Speer Manual has many loads for a short barrel 38 +P load, The Hodgdon Website also lists +P loads using the Hornady XTP bullet. I load what's in my manuals, I have no special formula for a SW. The same load will shoot out of a Ruger snubby.

There is no magic load or bullet, There is the FBI load but that is using a Lead bullet.

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Still Running Against the Wind

What I was looking for was somebody that maybe had a "pet" load specifically for the Remington 125 gr.

Most of my pistol re-loading has been with 9mm and I have developed good loads in a variety of bullets for it. I have not had success with 38 loads. I get frustratingly inconsistent results.

I, and later my son, was a national level service rifle and hi-power competitor (Camp Perry, National Police Olympics etc) and I have re-loaded many thousands of rounds of 223 (10,000 rds a year for several years). When Jimmy Knox (JLK bullets) was developing heavy bullets for the 223 for long range competition, I was among the folks he sent samples to for testing. I know something about precision rifle loads.

Even so, I regularly read threads asking basic questions about 223 loads and bullets and, if I have something I think may be helpful, reply, even if the questions have been asked and answered before. I figure that's the purpose of the forums, to share knowledge. If I'm not interested in a particular thread, I just skip it, I'm not offended by it.

Please understand, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I thought I was asking a simple question.

Best, Joe

Joe
Here is a link to a good thread on this subject posted here this past January.

125 grn loads for the 38 Special

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

I happen to have my cop of Lyman's Pistol & Revolver Handbook 3rd Edition right here in front of me so here it goes.

125 grain JHP


Bullseye-
3.2 start and 5.0 Max +P (MV 920 fps for max load)

Titegroup-
4.0 grains start and 5.0 grain Max for +P (1,001 fps for Max load)

Win 231-
3.9 grains start and 5.4 grains Max +P (882 fps for Max load)

Unique-
4.0 grains start and 6.0 grains Max (895 fps for Max load)

Power Pistol-
5.4 grains start and 6.4 grains Max +P (1,005 fps for Max load)

According to the manual all the velocities were obtained through a 4-inch barrel.

I would say that a good investment would be a decent manual. If you want a nice manual I would get the Lyman pistol and revolver handbook if you only plan on loading for handguns.

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Vaya con Dios

For a direct answer to your question with a couple of loads in an
actual typical revolver rather than a test barrel I can offer the
following; the gun is my S&W md 60-7 with 1 7/8" barrel.
Factory Remington Golden Saber 125 gr +P JHPs avg. 872 fps.
Looking basically to duplicate factory velocity I got these with 125 gr
Sierra JHPs; 5.0 grs Bullseye = 867 fps, 5.8 grs W231 = 896 fps.
I load mostly cast lead bullets in the 38 spl but I do feel that the
125 gr JHP is a usefull bullet weight for those who want to load
their own +Ps.

Just me and not a recommendation for anyone else but I loaded some 38 special cases with 125 gr jhp and (notxxxxxxxgr ) 6 gr Unique that were very accurate with no signs of excessive pressure in my Ruger LCR and . Smooth shooting also.

Edit: Lcr 357

Sorry, my bad!!! ...... correction I checked ammo box....
38 special cases... 125 gr jhp... cci primers...6 gr Unique
357 cases .........125gr jhp.....cci primers... 8 gr unique

Is there really any need to Parrot back or copy known data from a manual for any load?? Anything over and above the data from the powder company or tested loads in manuals is not responsible reloading and can cause problems when info is taken off the internet. Sure experienced reloaders want to push the limits or envelope.

Laws of physics, you can only get so much velocity out of a short barrel no matter what you do. The rest turns to flash and bang.

Generally the "best" short barrel loads use slower burning powders, but we do not have the powders that the factory ammo has.

Everyone has their favorite. A simple glance at Speer #14 gives a list in order of FPS. Unique, Power Pistol, AA #5 are some of the common ones.

I have been experimenting with the 327 Federal Mag and am getting the best results with Power Pistol, Better than H110 and 2400 which shouldn't be?? Lots of flash and noise.

I suspect it would be very good in the 38 +P.

Bottom line, the only way to tell is with a Chronograph and your gun.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Thanks for the help guys. Just what I was looking for. Now I have a couple of places to start.


Best, Joe

My favorite load for 125 grain jacketed bullets in a 38 Spec is 6.0 grains of Unique. That is a +P load. It is maximum and should not be exceeded.

Are you sure about the weight of the powder charge? That is ------- higher than what I see listed in loading manual that I own.

Alliant lists a Max of 6.0 grs for a +P 125 gr 38 Special GDHP

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

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Still Running Against the Wind

Joe, don't take offence at some of the replies here ("look in your manual", "do your own research"). We just had a bunch of similar questions and a thread on the subject, and some reacted to lazy questioners. For some it's easier to ask a question on a forum than to think and look up a powder manufacturer's load data.

Personally, I pay very little attention to any loads I see on line. No loads from any forum "expert", Unka Bob's reloading site, Gun Shop Guru, Range Rat, or gun counter clerk. While most are being helpful, their hearts are in the right place, I've seen/heard some pretty wild loads offered as "my favorite". I prefer to get my load data from a published load manual, and there are enough combinations of components to last me quite a while (30 years off and on)...

You are right

Sorry, correction I checked my ammo box....
38 special cases... 125 gr jhp... cci primers...6 gr Unique
357 cases .........125gr jhp.....cci primers... 8 gr unique

In my 686, 8.0 grains of HS6 and Remington's 125 JHP in 38 special cases works well for me. I got the combo years ago from one of Paco Kelly's articles.

Precisely why it is recommended that you do the research in manuals and manufacturer's sites. People make mistakes; don't let their mistakes become yours.

For the .38 spl I will parrot the 6.0grs of Unique behind the Remington 125gr using either their semi jaacket 125gr JHP's or the GSJHP's. I've loaded the .38 Golden Sabers in Winchester cases lit by Winchester SP primer for a chrono'd velocity of 1,053 fps average velocity from a 4" S&W 66. Remington factory claims 975 fps from a 4" vented test barrel. You should get around 950 fps from a snub nose for a little more than you would expect from a factory +P load that does a bit under 900.

Exactly why I try not to make any recommendations for "pet loads". I would hate to think my advice could inadvertently cause someone to break a gun, or lose a body part.

Somebody will say Unique. Somebody will say 231. And so on and so on....

If you have a suitable gun and are looking for *really* +P loads, then there was some great data in Brian Pearce's article in Handloader #243 on 38-44 loads. I use them in my SP101 chambered in 38 Special and can report that they are real humdingers!

If you are looking for more standard +P loads in a standard 38 Special, then Pearce's article in Handloader #217 is one of my favorite sources and produced one of my favorite loads. For a +P load (20K psi) suitable for modern revolvers so approved by the manufacturer for +P loads, the one I use is 8.1gr AA#5 with a 125 Hornady XTP or Rem JHP. This was reported to give 1073 fps from a 6" Model 14. His velocities are always accurate based on my chrono confirmation, and while you will not achieve that in a 2" barrel, I can report that you will get a good bit over 900fps in a short SP101. However, since the 38-44 loads do much better than that, I use those in the SP now.

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" I said, good DAY! "

If you were looking for a FBI replica load I could help you or if you were looking for a Speer short Barrel 38/357 replica load I could again help you but I have never worked on a 125gr .38 Special +P load. (I guess I should) I kinda like the heavier bullets in the .38 Special. I feel they do more damage and will stop the attack faster.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Maybe not +P but in my 642, 5.1 of W231 propels a Rem 125gr SJHP at just under 900 fps and will put 5 of them under 1" at 10yd.

Be aware that 5.4 is Max from load data so work up accordingly.

My mod 49 snub nose does not like the light 110 or 125 jhp bullets and does better with the 135gr and heavier bullets for point of aim,accuracy.
I have tried Bullseye,w231,Sr4756,800x,Universal and Unique powders from target velositys of 683fps to 952fps that should be used with a K frame.
For SD use the 125 Jhp should have 900 fps for it to open up,since some I have tested in water jugs at 836fps did not expand at ten feet away but this also depends on the guns used.
RedDot gave the best results and accuracy in my weapon from a light 4.6gr target load to a +P 900fps load with a cci500 primer for a 38 special.

If the 125 gr bullet will work for you great !!
The Rem sjhp with the max 38 spl load of RedDot shot at point of aim for me at 10 feet but only 4 of 5 were at 1.25 inch groups off a rest.

I setteled for the 135gr Gold Dot since it is what worked best in my snub nose with the "FBI" load coming in second place, both with all 5 bullets at or under 1" at 10 feet off a rest.

Good luck on finding what works in your weapon.

(12/26,back online...old PC finally died 12/16 after 7 years of hard work,a smell of burning wires,never more........ )

As someone else mentioned, the best approach is to buy a Chrony (not too expensive) and experiment starting with published loads. Just because some manual (or some forum poster) says load X gives a MV of Y, that may not be true for YOUR specific revolver. That's how I have accumulated a can or two of about every pistol powder known to man.

That load works in my K Frames and +P rated J frames; however, I have a couple of very old revolvers (36 and 2" 10) so I've adopted a standard load of 4.8 gr and they are very accurate in all my guns. My only +P loads now are factory for cc.

Thanks again for the additional info. it is very helpful and much appreciated. now if only I can find powder and primers. best, Joe.

Hodgdon lists the Max charge for a +P load @5.3gr W231 under a 125gr XTP with pressures of 19,800 CUP. Adding .1gr more might put you over the 20,000 PSI limit but I'm not sure since the Hodgdon listing is in CUP.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Before winchester powders went to Hodgdon....................
Win. +P data with a 125 jhp (6" vented barrel).............

5.3gr w231 935fps @ 17,200psi
5.4grs in my 686 6" mag gets 947fps at 10 feet with 38 brass.

Alliant 38 special preasures stop around 14,800 cup for its 38 spl data with a 125 jhp.

Sierra with a S&W K38 and Speer with a Ruger security six, both with a 6" barrel length give a Maximum load of 5.7 grs of w231 powder with a cci500 primer...............they did not list pressures with this data.........but Lyman shows 5.4grs of w231 at 18,300 cup from a 4" universal receiver............which was probably not vented.

The Winchester data book shows the same +P at 5.3 max with pressure of 17,200. Wonder where the extra 2,600 CUP came from?

My data for that 5.4 max is noted to have come out of Hornady #6 with a note that pressure should be around 18,300.

Unfortunately, I don't have that edition handy, but looking at my Hornady #3 (1980), they show a +P Max load for W231 as being 5.6gr !! (4"bbl, 1000fps, oal 1.455").

Speer #13 also shows 5.6 as their max load with 231 and a 125gr bullet (4 styles with an oal as short as 1.435").

So, IMO those 2 indicate, to me, that 5.4 is not necessarily an unsafe or overpressure load. It all depends on the particular gun and other load factors. The OP indicated he was an experienced loader and I expected him to know that, so my note on max was just a cautionary reminder for the new-bees.

This is one example to take any single booklet quote with a grain of salt (would that then make the load 6.3gr???) and work em up in your gun (as is repeated here over and over and over).


.....
Some of my chrono data using Rem 125 Golden Sabre w/38 SPL cases, 1.438"oal & Rem primers:
5.4gr W231
SW 27-8 3/8"- 1065 fps
SW 686-6"- 1023 fps
SW 19-4"- 997 fps
SW 65-3"- 969 fps
SW 642-1 7/8"- 927 fps

drop that to 5.1 gr and I show between 845 and 875 fps from the 642 and 887 fps from the 3" M65

There will ALWAYS be a difference in loading data from all the companys until they start using the same type of testing barrels and systems.

4 inch to 8 inch barrel data does not cut it...........either does a universal "solid" barrel system vs a "Vented" barrel system that lets the gases excape during the test........... plus the fact that some companys use magnum primers in their test to work with "their" types of powders while others use standard primers.

Just "Sort of nice" that after 100 years, we are getting close to finding out what the powders are actually doing in our reloads!! Just our luck, about the time we have it dialed in 100% the company will stop making that type of powder or bullet !!

One reason if you find something that works...........
STOCK UP !!

125JHP,
I tend to trust the powder company's online load data site before any manual that was printed god knows when. The online site is current so I would be careful. I just checked the brand new Hornady #9 and they list a charge that's even higher, they list 5.7gr W231 under a 125gr Hornady XTP bullet. I also trust them with THAT bullet and that bullet only because I'm sure they tested their own bullets. My conflict is, the also use a Hornady XTP bullet for the Hodgdon online data too. It's impossible for both to be correct, Hodgdon says 5.3gr and Hornady says 5.7gr with the same exact bullet. Go figure?

If Remington had a data site I would go with their data for the Golder Saber bullet.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

You are scaring me. A friend once bragged to me about the hot loads he and his friends were loading in 44 mag. A year later he was complaining about the bolt getting shorter in his winchester lever action 44 mag (they lock up at the rear). He sent it in and they replaced the bolt.
A few years later he complained about his ruger 44 mag semi auto hurting his shoulder. Naturally it was the guns fault.
Later it was about his ears permanently ringing.

You did not say what make revolver you have.
You did not slug the barrel and measure the groove diameter.
You did not mike the diameter of the bullets you have.

I could get as extreme as you and tell you what my old 1970 speers manual number 8 says about defense loads for a 2 inch barrel. But SAAMI pressure levels have changed downward.

All that I can say in good conscience is that the slower burning powders gave them the highest velocities at the expense of considerable muzzle flash.

Naturally speer manual was written about tests done using speer bullets. If remington puts out a reloading book that is what you should use with remington bullets.

[QUOTE=Delos;136888840]You are scaring me. A friend once bragged to me about the hot loads he and his friends were loading in 44 mag.

You make an excellent point which made me realize I wasn't clear in my original post. When I wrote " Plus P" in my mind I was NOT looking for a nuclear load, but something that shot well and was above some of the, for want of a better word "anemic" loads that are designed to be safe in even the oldest 38.

I wanted something that works well, say in any post 1950 gun (I've got a 640 and a 1950's vintage Model 10). I am as much interested in accuracy as speed, maybe more so, although I do want it as a dual purpose defensive load.

I came upon the 125 gr Remington's sort of by accident (they're the old scalloped jacket ones). Otherwise I don't like the lighter bulllets in 38's (I've seen a few people shot with 110's back in the day and while none of them looked happy about it, only one died).

So, having no experience with them is what brought me to the collective wisdom of the forum.

Thanks for the help. Best, Joe

Correction: The above Speer #13 max is for their Standard Pressure load data. Their Max for their +P listing is 5.9 gr.

Also consider that, Although HP38 and W231 are said to be the same powder, Winchester listed a higher loading than Hodgdon for many years. In addition, several different load manuals often have different max loads for the two powders, off by .1 or.2 grains. I doubt neither would publish loads at the ragged edge, they no doubt left some safety margin. So could it have been a marketing thing, perhaps where Winchester (Olin or whoever) licensed Hodgdon to also sell HP38 but that they couldn't publish mo-betta-faster data and take sales away from W231 ?

Just another speculation to throw into the mix.

I'm soon to load some 125 grn 38 spcl loads, just about all to be used in a 357 gun. I will go with Titegroup, or win 231, looking at less that top +p loads. Right now I'm leaning Titegroup.

An older Sierra manual gives a hotter load than 6 gr. of Unique for .38 +P . I had a model 10 that I believed was up to the task so I tried a starting load. Their loads were VERY hot and I decided to back off a tad from the data I used. I have a 686 now and would not hesitate to use these loads in this gun. Anyway, Unique makes a good hot load (and I use it for almost everything). Powders and recommendations have changed over the years so I'm not going to publish the data.

Take this info and interpret it any way you like, but do not duplicate without working up load carefully and even then you should check it yourself and even then I'm not responsible for anything. etc. etc.

A Speer manual #9 (1974) has 6 gr. of Unique as max for 125 gr. jhp bullet without listing any +P loads. A friend had an older Sierra manual that lists 6.4 gr. of Unique for a STARTING +P load. I had a strong gun with a short barrel (I didn't blow it up, I traded it) and gave the starting load a try. The loads were plenty hot to the point I thought that I would drop back to 6.2 gr. I have a .357 now so my hot loads should be safe to shoot and the point is moot. Anyway the rounds had a much more raucous flash and bang and maybe stronger than old factory +P loads. I was so surprised that I don't even remember if I hit the target. I just stood there and thought to myself R%$s!!!

I have used 6.0grs of Unique in 38 brass in my 686 6" mag
with cci500 primers and get a +p velosity of +/- 1047, that was very accurate,for a low end load in this L frame revolver.

It does not burn well in a J frame snub nose and with a f100 primer and 6.0grs of powder the velosity with Unique is only 881fps, which is equal to a 4" +p load. Red and greendot were better in the snub nose in all test,near or below +p velositys in my two mod 49's, with velositys, groups and poa, except for one Cor-Bon +P 110gr load that screamed out at 996fps and printed 4@ .38" at 10 feet.

I am sitting on about 300 of these exact rounds for my mod 19, 6" bbl, K frame. I haven't chrono'd them, but by sierra manual lists them as mid-range 38 spl @ 1000 fps.

Don't feel put upon Joe! I can't even get a lead on a book for beginners. I guess I'll just start reading anything on google or wikipedia... No, maybe not

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Halfway and one more step