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Old 01-21-2013, 01:40 AM
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Default Blue Dot load for 357 and a question

Hello,

Before work became all consuming I used to load quite a bit but have gotten away from it. Now its time to get back to what is important in life. Many years ago I decided to use Blue Dot for my 357. Just would like to get a sampling of charge that others are using for 4 inch barrel 686.

Now for the question, is there that much of a difference between standard and magnum primers, particularly if using a light magnum load? What would happen if standard primers were used in a 357?

Thanks
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
is there that much of a difference between standard and magnum primers, particularly if using a light magnum load? What would happen if standard primers were used in a 357?
I've loaded 13.8grs of Blue Dot behind 125gr bullets with magnum primers for over 20 years to produce factory full power equivalent loads of 1,450 fps + from a 4" barrel with never a sign of over pressure. With flake powders from Alliant and other manufacturers generally standard primers are sufficient and will produce good loads with either magnum or standard primers. For ball powders its best to use magnum primers as recommended in most reloading manuals to get proper ignition.

Last edited by Steve C; 01-22-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:28 AM
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Blue Dot works best at near max loads or you will have a lot of un burned powder. Flaming Dirt

Follow the manufactures load advice.

PS: It is not supposed to be used with a 125 gr bullet but of course there are those that have done so and that is up to them.

Alliant Powder - Safety Notice


  • Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
  • Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet wei
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:14 PM
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I've never used Blue Dot with a magnum primer in .357 - I use max published Blue Dot loads under my 180-grainers with standard primers and get really terrific results.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:31 PM
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If you read the Alliant "Notice" ,please check out the temperatures that caused this problem............OK so it is not good for a cold weather hunting load. Does that mean that at "Normal" temperatures at 50 degrees or more this powder is still "Unstable" and unsafe?
Was it just one case, maybe in a J or K frame ? It would be nice if they laid ALL the CARDS on the table with this story.

As for std or mag primers..............in all my bluedot loads ,you just have to see if your gun groups better with these primers at low or maximum loads,since my K and 686 will print at different points on target and also show different fps with the different loadings.

My best accuracy in my 686 with bluedot with cci500 primers comes with the 110 and 125jhp at 1288 to 1430, 140xtp target at 1250fps and the 158xtp at 1270fps with a maximum load. The heavier bullets from 140grs actually shoot better in my 6" guns and I very seldom shoot the lighter bullets,now.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
If you read the Alliant "Notice" ,please check out the temperatures that caused this problem............OK so it is not good for a cold weather hunting load.

Where does it say that?
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:40 PM
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Default Blue Dot load for 357 and a question

I remember reading warnings about Blue Dot and cold weather in the gun mags in the 80s.Since I shoot a lot in the winter I stopped using it.I still have 3/4 of a canister on the shelf.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:57 PM
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Why just the 125gr bullet? The 110JHP gets 4.0 more grains of powder for the same pressures and it was not banned from Bluedot??

HOWEVER.....I have to admit these two bullet weights "Suck"
as a hunting load unless you are after vermin or "Yotes".

This slow power really does much better with the 140 or heavier bullets,anyway,so I can live w/o the 125gr and BD data, just to keep everyone happy.
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Where does it say that?

It doesn't. It just states that....

Quote:
Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.

......and if the manufacturer of Blue-Dot tells me it's dangerous to use, I listen. With the amount of other safe, accurate and more suitable powders out there, I see no reason not to listen. Others are free to do as they please.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buck460XVR View Post
It doesn't. It just states that....



I was asking Nevada ED as he is the one that wrote it.???

http://media.midwayusa.com/pdf/instr...ety_Notice.pdf
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:38 PM
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Here is a copy of the warning:

"ATK Commercial Products
900 Ehlen Drive Anoka, MN 55303
ATK | Fortune 500 aerospace, defense, security, and sporting products company

July 25, 2008

Dear Functional Wholesaler:

Please distribute this letter to all of your customers immediately with instructions for them to do the following:
• Post this letter in a highly visible area of their establishment
• Distribute to their customers as soon as possible

Alliant Powder Blue Dot® Product Safety Notice

Alliant Powder® periodically reviews and tests their published reloading data to verify that recommended recipes have not changed over time.
During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder’s Blue Dot® should not be used in the following applications:
• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).

Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause and appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.
Thank you for your cooperation and if you have any questions or concerns please contact me at Dick.Quesenberry@ATK.com or call me at 540-639-8503.

Dick Quesenberry
Alliant Powder
Product Line Manager"
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:59 PM
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All of Alliant's .357 recipes call for standard (CCI 500) primers. And welcome back to the reloading bench!

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Sackett View Post
Here is a copy of the warning:

"ATK Commercial Products
900 Ehlen Drive Anoka, MN 55303
ATK | Fortune 500 aerospace, defense, security, and sporting products company

July 25, 2008

Dear Functional Wholesaler:

Please distribute this letter to all of your customers immediately with instructions for them to do the following:
• Post this letter in a highly visible area of their establishment
• Distribute to their customers as soon as possible

Alliant Powder Blue Dot® Product Safety Notice

Alliant Powder® periodically reviews and tests their published reloading data to verify that recommended recipes have not changed over time.
During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder’s Blue Dot® should not be used in the following applications:
• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
• Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).

Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause and appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.
Thank you for your cooperation and if you have any questions or concerns please contact me at Dick.Quesenberry@ATK.com or call me at 540-639-8503.

Dick Quesenberry
Alliant Powder
Product Line Manager"
What sets the .41 Mag apart from all other cartridges, making it unsuitable for Blue Dot with any bullet or powder weight? I wonder how Blue Dot can tell it's in a .41 Mag instead of a .44 Mag, or for that matter, that it's under a 125 gr. bullet in a .357.

I not trying to refute what Mr. Quisenberry says, it just seems to me that the .44 is close enough to the .41 that it would have the same problem with Blue Dot, whatever that problem may be.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:17 PM
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Exclamation

I have already linked the warning twice. Do we need to keep posting it.

All I want to know is where Nevada Ed got his info about cold weather?? Does he have some other document??

Hey, guess what? you are not supposed to use ......
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:31 PM
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Default Blue Dot load for 357 and a question

It's an old warning that came out in the mid to late 80s. Whether it came from the manufacturer or the gun rags of the day,who remembers?
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:29 PM
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R3;

A person from Alliant back in the 1980's said they were having problems with inconsistant pressures with the new tests of the 125gr Jhp bullets in their labs.

14.0grs was getting around 38,000 psi, where the new pressures for this load should be 35,000 psi per the legal staff, with the new style of "Light Magnum" guns now on the market,for everyones safty,which is a good thing.

I have no idea if this was the time Hercules and Alliant powders were changed over..... or if the powders were changed at this time for the "New Cleaner" powder type improvements,just that the powder has changed and modern data should be used .

As for the temperature thing.......its water under the bridge,now.

Stay safe

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 01-21-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:37 PM
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I can tell you first hand that Blue Dot acts crazy at 30*F or less. I built some full power loads in the summer and when I went to run some over the chronograph in December, and, yes, it was under 30*F here in Indiana then, and I was getting over 2100fps from my Marlin 1894.

Suffice it to say, that was the last I used the powder here in the great white north!
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:50 PM
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I hate the stuff, but ya no what? I just bought a pound from my LGS as he has almost nothing left to sell.

It and a bottle of red and green dot are still there from who know when (years)
I have never used the other DOTS, but Blue is OK for full mags. I was using all my H110 for the 30 carbine so I thought I'd at least get the Blue.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:53 PM
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Where you live, there will never be a problem UNLESS when you get frost on you oranges you decide to go shooting......
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Sackett View Post
Where you live, there will never be a problem UNLESS when you get frost on you oranges you decide to go shooting......
Don't laugh I have seen it many times, Trees fully encase in ICE.

The trees can take it for several hours but the rest of the crops like maters, lettuce etc are wiped out.

People think Florida is just Mickey Mouse and Beaches but it's primary other than tourism is Agriculture. Yep we have Cows, hogs and stuff
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:12 PM
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If you go out to shoot and don't need a pair of long johns and ear muffs, you are good to go .........

I have a "Few" Bluedot loads in 38 spl but I have to admit that Bullseye with target loads and Reddot with High velosity loads are a lot better. Unique works with the longer barrels.
Blue is just so much better in the 357 mag cases,since it is so slow..............It is acually better than SR4756 in my test since it does not spike as bad and accepts different primers better. I have yet to get a 300+/- ES with Blue as with 4756.

One of these days I an going to have to buy some 2400 and find out what the best powder is...................since IMR 4227 sucks.
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:48 AM
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One of these days I an going to have to buy some 2400 and find out what the best powder is...................since IMR 4227 sucks.
2400 is excellent, one of the best for 357. You said 4227 "sucks" as in your other thread. Why? The data you posted there is well below the max listed??

38/357 4227 powder is too slow
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cp1969 View Post
What sets the .41 Mag apart from all other cartridges, making it unsuitable for Blue Dot with any bullet or powder weight? I wonder how Blue Dot can tell it's in a .41 Mag instead of a .44 Mag, or for that matter, that it's under a 125 gr. bullet in a .357.
Exactly! How can it be okay with a 110gr. & a 140gr. bullet but not with a 125gr. in a 357 Mag? Wouldn't that make it the worlds most selective powder? Oddly to, Alliant lists using it in the 357 SIG (11.0grs compressed) with a 125gr. bullet & a 38 Super with a 124gr. bullet !?! And it's okay in the 10mm Auto & 44 Mag, but not the 41 Mag !?! If this isn't just one of their legal department's CYA ideas, I don't know what is. I don't doubt cold weather issues, but there's other powders with that problem too.
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:24 AM
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Default Blue Dot load for 357 and a question

That's why I've had most of a can sitting on a shelf for 25 years.Why bother with a powder that's quirky?
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:23 PM
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R3;

I was just hoping that IMR4227 would have a little more velosity for the amount of powder that is dumped into the 38spl case.
All 38 loads were tested in my L frame 357 magnum for safty and the at near or compressed loads were just under or at the start of a +P velosity.

You can use 50% less powder for the same velosity if you switch to w231 powder and also have less powder flakes dropping out of the brass and revolver when the cylinder is opened.
I actually had to stop testing one day when a "Standard load" from the IMR data, actually froze up the cylinder in my snub nose form the powder flakes getting into the cracks of the revolver. Removing the yolk screw was the only way to get the revolver to work again.
It just needs lots of pressure to burn clean and this is not going to happen in the 38 spl loads in the manuals.
Looks like the lawn is going to get nice and green this coming spring............................

later.
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:44 PM
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I was referring to your 357 mag data in the other post. The Hodgdon/IMR online data is much higher?
I use HP 38/W 231 for just about everything. 2400 for Full Mag loads.

"357 mag cases
Hornady 125gr xtp oal 1.59
18.5c 1325fps 34500cup c/o Dupont data
18.5c 1230fps ...............
Speer 158 Jhp oal 1.58
15.3c 1075fps 36,000cup c/o Dupont data
15.3c 1082fps cci550 mag primer.................FINALLY,but still a target load with the new approved pressers of today.?
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:17 PM
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IMR data was with Reminton 5 1/2 primers and a 6 inch barrel.
With the difference in fps I would think this test barrel might have been a "Solid" and not vented,as was the custom back in those days and maybe one heck of a crimp,also !!

We all know that a company might "Fudge" a few 100fps or so for sales but going from a magnum load down to a "Lite" mag or heavy target load , with my 6 inch 686 "Vented" barrel was some what of a surprise.

Its all good ...testing out different powder is fun and I enjoy doing so,just that I hate it when you step into an elevator and say "UP" and it goes....."Down".
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