Hi guys - given that long time handloaders are likely to know more about this than anyone else - I thought I'd ask this question here:

The 38 Special +P 158gr lead SWCHP is called the 'FBI load' and was well regarded 'back in the day' when cops carried 4" barrel service revolvers. I've seen this ammunition currently offered from manufacturers listed at velocities from 890-1000fps. What velocity was standard in the past ? (As we know, many cartridges are run milder now than they used to in prior days.) Are todays versions offered by manufacturers the same as in the past ?

Of course, velocity isn't everything. A bullet can be run too fast, causing it to break up and limit penetration. What velocity have you found to work best when shooting a 158gr lead SWCHP ? This will be for use in K frames. 4" barrel Model 64 and 6" barrel Model 10. I've done a search here and have seen some good handloading recipes, and I'd like to get an idea of what would match the old FBI load in performance.
Thanks in advance for your comments. Best regards, - - -

Undoubtedly the best load for the 158 grain LSWCHP is right at 1000 fps. The reason for this is penetration. It has been proven again and again that the Model 10 can handle enough of these for both practice and carry use. Bullet placement and penetration are the prime directive for antipersonnel purposes.

Erich, (an attorney that frequents this site) that has been in the morgue with enough gunshot victims repeatedly tells of the use of heavy .38 Special loads. All of his examples perform their best when using heavier bullets at higher velocities.

The only reason the FBI stopped using them, was due to the transition to the 10mm Auto pistol. The S&W Model 13 was the "sweetheart" of the Feebies because the 3" heavy barrel soaked up some of the 158 grain +P load's recoil.

Scott

Factory data has this load at 890 fps for a +p loading in their tests but it can be different in your guns.

My 686 6" gets a +P load with Alliants maximum 38 spl loading of reddot and it hits at poa. Winchesters +P load of w231will also get you at a +P velosity in a 6".

In a snub nose only Unique will get you the "FBI" load with the Alliant powders with 38 spl data but the recoil is harsh. You can get 792 to 813 fps with the others if you don't mind a lighter load. .I don't have the new PP.

From the chrono results I've seen online, no.

p.s. Be sure to measure the OAL on Remington's version. Some lots tend to be long.

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Centennial Every Day

When originally produced in the early 70s, the W-W LSWCHP had a claimed velocity of, I believe, 1090 fps. The Law Enforcement Handgun Digest of 1972 has a velocity chart on p. 188, which shows 1014 fps for this load (W38SPD) from a 4" revolver barrel. This has been 'watered down' to the current 890 fps as the other posters have pointed out. When old and present loadings are fired consecutively, there is a noticeable difference. Hope this helps. VL

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load

I do not know of any agency still using a lead bullet.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Thanks guys ! I knew you fellas would know the answer to this.

I had seen (and bookmarked) the thread on duplicating the Buffalo Bore load and that's something that I want to eventually work on.

Since the police switched over to semi-autos, I would guess that manufacturers weakened the 'FBI load' in order to add to their bottom line. Or maybe to make it more shootable out of lighter weight J-frames ? I'll have to do some more research on this.

Thank you again for clearing this up. I appreciate it. Best regards, - - -

The LSWCHP pictured on this thread appears to have a gas check.

I agree. This also begs the question, how many agencies are shooting the revolver? I thought not.

So many people are shooting the "J" frame revolvers, perhaps that's the reason. This doesn't negate the efficiency of the "full house" FBI load. Some things still work well.

Scott

I also wonder if the country started to become more lawsuit crazy around that time & if corporate lawyers feared that someone would misuse the full power loads in an old, weaker gun. If cops were going to semi autos and civilians were now the primary customers, maybe this fear outweighed the demand for the most effective loads.

Shooting the BB 158gr LSWCHP +P out of a alloy J fame is pretty much the same as a 357 Mag out of alloy frame. It is brutal. Follow up shots are difficult unless you are really a experienced shooter.

With today's bullet technology like the Gold Dot or Golden Saber, Hydra Shok whatever. you can get good results with a lighter bullet and not the massive flash and recoil. JMO.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Yes, for me this will be stictly for my steel service size revolvers with K,L, and N type frames.

due to the now lower velocities, the remington version is the best due to the softer lead used, especially in a snubby....in my opinion......

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I'm only allowed 30 characters

Did the FBI use plus P or Magnum in the M13? I had assumed that they used the M13 so they could use Magnum ammo. Otherwise, a M10 or 64 would have done the job.

Best,
Rick

riverrat38: According to my buddy, a retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent, the .38 +P LHP was the standard load. Agents could carry the W-W .357M 145gr Silvertip if they qualified with it.

model 10 and 64 J frames were 38 specials..........that were feed the "FBI load" but normally shot the standard velositys when not on duty.
The other K and N frame .357 magnums were loaded with standard 38 special or the FBI +P load,depending on their department regulations.
Some could load the 38 spl case high velosity 110gr SJhp "Treasery load" in their magnums, but normally .357 ammo was not allowed or issued in service weapons, but later used by Border patrol and Highway Patrolmen.

Picture of a remington and winchester (right) 158gr "FBI" out of a 4 inch barrel.

Although not exactly what you are asking about, if you want to see what the FBI was using back in the 30s, go to the Buffalo Bore web site and order a few boxes of their 38 Special "Outdoorsman" load, which is the .38/44 Load the the 158 grain semi-wadcutter at 1150 fps.

Go fire a few of those in your Colt Police Positive (yes, Colt said it was OK for the FBI to use them in the issue Police Positive) if you want to see whether you are as tough as the G-Men of the 1930s!

Back in those days it didn't matter if the police shot very heavy loads in their Colt and S&W revolvers because if they shot loose you could turn them in to the department and get your revolver replaced. I don't think anyone would want to do that today, especially with a Colt since you can't just turn it in for another.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

shawn - I had actually ordered a few boxes of the Outdoorsman 38/44 SWC and 'true FBI load' SWCHP Buffalo Bore ammo a few days ago. I don't have a Police Positive (23 oz in a 4" version - yeeoww!). But, will try a few out of a 4" M64, 6" M10, and 4" M28. The Model 28 is about as close to a S&W 38/44 that I currently am able to shoot, I may limit the SWCs to that gun. (I also have a 686+ but that doesnt seem 'old school' enough for this ammo. Regards, - -

I've been loading 158 gr Speer SWC-HP's over 4.5 gr W231, guesstimated at around 800 fps or a bit more out of my 2" Chief. Next time I do some loading, I'm bumping the charge up to 5.0 gr & figure I'll get close to 900 (that'd be close to 1000 fps out of a 4" tube)-- stout, but just barely into +P range.

If we are talking about duplicating the FBI Load I did a lot of development work on it a few years back. I found a good charge of HS-6 along with a magnum primer and a Hornady 158gr LSWC/HP bullet makes a very good replica load. I won't post the charge weight here because it's above all "Current" load manuals but the load has been estimated @ 19,800 psi, just below the 20,000 psi limits. shot next to the Remington and Federal FBI Load offerings it does feel the same although we all know that's really not a true test of pressure. That load generates 889 fps in my tests from a 2" J frame. (so it is on the "warm" side) Accuracy is very good and so are the SD numbers.

Here's the load:
Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
x.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L --- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9

Hope this helps and be careful when working up to the MAX. Here is a hint, it's higher than 6.8gr HS-6 but not as high as 7.2gr HS-6. Just remember, blame no one but yourself if something goes wrong. Current data doesn't not exceed 6.7gr but those loads are also marked as standard pressure loads, not a +P load. (Lyman Cast Handbook 3rd and 4th Editions)

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

My "NEW" Lyman shows 6.7grs of HS-6 at only 16,200 cup.

Some state a +P is around 18,500 cup but as mentioned different powders have different pressures.

889 fps !! Heck, some sites state they only get 800 to 840 fps out of their snub nose with the Remington +P ammo.

Just goes to show that every gun and load is different........

The Hornady manual specifically recommends 800 fps with their swaged lead bullets, including the 158gr LSWC-HP. I wouldn't worry about leading for self-defense purposes but would not want to push the Hornady bullets this fast because of leading problems.

Buffalo Bore uses a harder lead bullet in their 38 Special +P loads.

From the Lyman 45th Edition, I tried the following loads. I won't include the charge weights since they are above what is commonly recommended today, but there were no signs of excessive pressure whatsoever. These were all tested within the last two years.

#1
Gun: Model 36 RB, 2"
Load: x.x/Unique+158 grain SWC+CCI500
AV: 893.6
ES: 112.6
SD: 32.32

#2
Gun: M&P, 4"
Load: x.x/Unique+158 grain SWC+CCI500
AV: 997.3
ES: 60.79
SD: 20.56

#3
Gun: Model 36 RB, 2"
Load: x.x/Unique+154 grain SWCHP (358156)+CCI500
AV: 902.3
ES: 82.31
SD: 21.90

#4
Gun: M&P,4"
Load: x,x/Unique+154 grain SWCHP(358156)+CCI500
AV: 1008
ES: 50.73
SD: 19.62

#5
Gun: Model 15,4"
Load: x.x/Unique+154 grain SWCHP(358156)+CCI500
AV: 883.8
ES: 54.51
SD: 22.60

#6
Gun: Model 15,4"
Load: x.x/2400 + 154 grain SWCHP (358156)+CCI500
AV: 889
ES: 23.79
SD: 10.81

#7
Gun: Heavy Duty, 5"
Load: x.x/2400+158 LSWC+CCI500
AV: 1120
ES: Not recorded
SD: Not recorded
NOTES: Good load; hits to point of aim at 25 yards. Empty cases fall from the chambers.

NOTE: All charge weights with Unique were the same. The 2400 charge weight of #7 was one grain higher than that of #6. There is still easily room to step up that load for the HD, but that's good enough. This charge of Unique has been a favorite of mine for over 30 years; it will still deliver the goods when such power is wanted from a .38 Special.

The "+P" loads from the big makers are just a shadow of what they used to be. A few old reloaders and outfits like Buffalo Bore apparently are the only folks who realize the capabilities of some of these "old" cartridges.

I have always carried a .38 Spl. as my CCW gun and have made it a point to personally test the bullets I carry in it. I have posted the results here a few times but here is what my actual Chronograph numbers look like out of my 2" S&W M60-7.............

Rem & Win Std. Vel. 158 grain LSWC ------ barely broke 700 fps
Rem, Fed, Win +P 158 grain LSWCHP------ high 700;s - low 800's
Speer Gold Dot 135 grain (short bbl.) +P JHP ------ around 860 fps
Buffalo Bore Std. Vel. 158 grain LSWCHP --------- around 880
Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC ----------- 1025 - 1040 fps.

I have done a lot more than just one testing of these loads and can honestly say that the velocities quoted by Remington, Winchester & Federal on their FBI loads are Hog wash, ESPECIALLY out of a 2" gun! Buffalo Bore's claims are spot on, and Speer's is pretty close too.

Over the last 4 years or so I have been carrying the Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC and yes it is a handful in a 19 ounce 2" revolver with small grips. That said, practice with said loads makes it at least do-able and feasible to be shot effectively. Unless you practice often and shoot this load occasionally to become familiar and sort of comfortable with it, I would say most people are much better off with the Speer Gold Dots. They are still very effective, much easier to shoot accurately, and generate much less felt recoil. That is usually the load I recommend to a Newbie.

I will however say this about the BB +P. It is extremely accurate, the most consistent of all the loads mentioned above, and literally turns your 2" 38 special into a low end .357 Magnum. You just need to be a lot more disciplined when it comes to practicing often with this load.

The thing I dislike about the Speer Gold Dot is that IMHO penetration is marginal at best. The "experts" tout that 11 - 12 inches is the minimum penetration needed, and while the load does consistently do that in pure ballistic gelatin, there are no bones, muscle, tendons, cartilage or clothing in it when tested. The Buffalo Bore +P will penetrate 18+ inches through the same gelatin and so in my own mind that BB is the better load if one can shoot it accurately and rapidly, but if not, the Gold Dot might be the ticket in a 2" snub.

Chief38

Actually it's the direct opposite, the lead used in the BB load is very soft, @5 BHN. BB is using a very soft gas checked bullet made by Rim Rock Bullets. Research is a wonderful thing.

As for the Hornady bullet you can think what you like. I know they did not lead in my revolvers at the velocities I listed in my post. I have no reason to lie about anything.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

"THE LOAD!"
158gr LSWC @ 1100fps from a 3" M60 -13.
AND, I can make them over and over and over and over and over and over and .........

I can even make them with other bullets. Really neat ones! Like these:

Skip, what are those they look awesome?

Hand crafted, custom ammunition, from a "boutique" loader, ME!

The bullets are from a mould I have. It is a Modern Bond 2 cavity mould numbered: #D-358582.

Not too many of them around anymore. I got mine as a gift from the wife. She went on ebay and got it because she thought it was cool and mistook it for an H&G.

That's okay, she wanted to get me a mould that would be cool. She scored on that part!

What a fantastic lady you have there Skip !

REGARDING THE VELOCITY OF THE PRE-38 +p, I did some gel testing for a large Midwest PD in the early 80's. Some of the rounds tested were the original WW 38 SPD, at the time this load was listed as 1090 or 1060 FPS from a 6" barrel.

They chrono's 1000 FPS out of a 4" Ruger Security Six.

FYI

In a way, I am happy they dropped the velosity over the 30 years of that load, because I sure would hate to shot that monster in a "Airweight " J frame !!

920-950 fps...................no thank you.

Gentlemen-

I put together some of the "Duplicating the Buffalo Bore FBI Loads" today (so I could try out my new chrony). Also tried them on a makeshift "backstop" comprised of 2- 5 gal. pails of water, in line, with the first having my old Carhartt zipped up around it. What a riot!
BTW, the BB loads came in at +/- 1025 fps. out of my 3" SP101. No significant difference in FPS out of my 2" 640 stainless either. Only thing that bothered me was the LSWCHP expansion. I had hoped for more.

Not 100% on topic, but still a good read on Remington's 158 LHP current offering. Pocket Guns and Gear: Remington 38 Special +P 158 Grain LHP Clear Gel Test

Keep in mind that most handloading mauals show velocities out of a 4" or 6" barrel. My old "Shooting Crony" wouldn't work properly when I went to chronograph my 38 spl loads a while back, but I figure with my 2" barrels I'm gonna get at least 100 fps less than what my old Speer #10 manual shows for a 6 incher.

Well these FBI load threads come up all the time & there’s some people on this forum that have explored different powder/load/bullet combos to try to duplicate this load.

I haven’t done any testing myself because I don’t own a 4” bbl’d 38/357 anymore. I do have a 6” bbl’d revolver & a 10” bbl for a contender. At least I could do some test loads with them over a chronograph to see what kinds of velocities I could come up with by using Herco & a 158gr lswc bullet.

Why Herco? Because in post #6 of this thread there’s a link to an earlier thread on this very topic. It has a lot of very useful information along with a picture of the bb powder & the weight of their powder charge (7.5gr).

Every time I look at the picture of the powder that bb used it reminds me of Herco powder. Herco has the same rough black flat grains of powder in it along with lesser amounts of a smooth flat grained powder just like in the picture that Hoptob posted back in 2009. Herco has smaller grains of powder (.036”) than 4765 but Herco & 4756 both have a burn rate that’s very close to each other. The only reloading data I have for Herco & the 38spl p+ loads is on the wimpy side. So it won’t bother me to pump up the volume a little bit by using the contender with the 357 bbl.

A picture of Herco.



Hoptob’s picture from 2009.

The pressure limit for the original 38 Special 158 grain load was 20,000 cup (from many sources), some others refer to 22,000.

SAAMI revised testing methods and measurements in the early '70s and then lowered max pressures again in the early '90s.

When you mentioned 'the BB loads came in at +/- 1025 fps' out of your 3" SP101, you were talking about your handloads, right ? What velocity did the actual Buffalo Bore brand ammo produce out of that gun ? I see that Buffalo Bore got 1143fps out of the 3in SP-101 that they have. Did you use the same brass and bullet as Buffalo Bore ? (I bet they sure cost you a lot less than the factory stuff !) Thanks for posting about this. I definitely want to do this too. Regards, - - -

The standard pressure Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 grain LSWC-HP duplicates the "old" FBI load, the +P exceeds it.

The Double Tap +P 158 grain SWC is a nice thumper too.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

Skip, is that the "The Load" as in the Speer #8 "The Load"? I remember playing with that in my Outdoorsman. Never did get to the published minimum charge. At .2 grains below the published minimum my Remington primers began to pierce. It was fun, though. Very accurate, too.

That "load" is the "original" FBI load. The most effective .38 Special load to date. IMHO, this particular load would be what I would want to carry in the .38 S&W Special...ANY .38 S&W Special when "push comes to shove."

Scott

I have tried Speer and Rim Rock 158 LHP bullets, combined with Power Pistol, AA#5, H. Universal, and HS-6. I tried both std and mag primers with HS-6.

By far and away, my best results were with Rim Rock 158 LHP w/gc and Power Pistol. 5.4 grains (low end +P) launches the bullet with very respectable velocity, no leading, and great accuracy. I use std primers and get amazingly low ES and SD.

I chronoed this load in three different guns one cold winter day:
S&W M15-4 with 4" barrel: 960fps
S&W Pre-27 with 5" barrel: 920 fps
Ruger GP100 with 4.2" barrel: 900fps

I was surprised and impressed by the results, and this load has become a keeper. I am going to try 5.0 and 5.2 grains some day just to see how it performs, but 5.4 grains of Power Pistol with a Rim Rock 158 LHP is great!

I'm sure the Feds & the UN say at all lead SWCHP's are too dangerous to the receiving party.....you know, lead poisoning?

Note: On using Alliant 2400 for .38 special FBI load.

I love 2400 for stout .357 magnum loads, but it doesn't work as well for "modern" .38 special +P loads because 2400 does not burn as efficiently in smaller charges. It leaves granules behind that can get stuck in the star extractor. An extremely heavy crimp helps, but does not solver the problem. I have gone as low as 8.8 grains of 2400 behind a 158 grain Speer L HP bullet. Not a consistent load, and lots of granules left behind. I got better results with 9.4 grains, and the best with 10.5 grains. I occasionally load up a few of these bullets with 10 grains of 2400 (which is considered too hot by today's standards). It gives 875 fps in my 2" Rossi 5-shot revolver. It's all steel, but I wouldn't fire very many of this load through it, or through any alloy .38 special gun. I've sort of given up on loading my own FBI loads. I can afford Buffalo Bore loads, as long as I don't shoot 'em! I'll carry the BBores, and shoot a few a couple of times a years to rotate my stock. For practice I settle for a heavy dose of Bullseye even though it will not match the BBore loads.

Just my 2 cents worth. Good luck, all.

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For your amusement, here's more information on some of the topics above, resurrected in this hoary old thread I stuck up here a few years back.
Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

What FBI Agent uses a revolver "today"

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Still Running Against the Wind

I like the heaviest bullet that I can get to or above 1000 fps. I don't think you have to worry about a 158 gr bullet, soft or hard cast, being pushed to fast and breaking up out of a .38, or even a .357 for that matter.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

As we are doing Necro threads,

If I carried a snub I would have the Treasury load.

38 +P+ 110gr JHP Treasury Ammo Test

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Still Running Against the Wind

You dug up a 2 year old thread for that?
Since we're on the subject, the RCMP also used the FBI load and they reported excellent results with it when euthanizing large animals including moose. IIRC, they had 5" model 10s.

I thought I would just mention the Magnus swaged 158 LSWC-HP as an alternative to the Speer & Hornady offerings. It seems like a much better bullet with a wider nose and better hollow point. Very accurate in my .357 at .38 +P velocities.

Sorry, but I’ve got to resurrect this thread one more time.
Spent most of the day doing load development and testing of the FBI load in my newly purchased S&W 19-4 snubbie. Came up with 3 loads that probably generate 900fps out of the 2.5" barrel: 7.0gr of HS-6, 6.4gr of AA#5, and 5.6gr of Unique. Wasn't too concerned about running them over the chronograph, as what I really wanted to do was see what the hollowpoint bullets I cast did.

I cast them really soft (about 35:1) so that they would expand at 800-900fps velocities. I then had an idea that I tried for testing them for expansion. I bought a large plastic cooler at Walmart and cut a "window" in the one end of it for the bullets to go thru, and then taped a replaceable piece of plastic over the window. At the far end of the cooler, I placed a piece of sheet metal to prevent any bullet from going out the back end of the cooler. I then filled it full of water and then shot thru the window from a distance of 10'. I had hoped that 2 feet of water would stop the bullet, but it banged into the sheet metal at the far end, and the bullet was damaged. I am going to have to find something replaceable that is a little harder that I can insert into the water filled cooler to slow the bullet down. Any ideas? Only thing I can think of is something like 1/4" luan floor underlay or something like that.

Don

PS - ArchAngelCD, love that HS-6 load.

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NRA Cert. Reloading Instructor

Almost any HP bullet will expand in just water, It is not a viable test of anything really. Like milk jugs or wet newspaper, fun perhaps but not relevant, If you do not want to spend time and money on ballistic gel, see if you can get a big ham from the store that has not sold by date. They end up destroying them anyway, Befriend the meat department guys.

I am sure those bullets will put a serious hurt on whatever they hit!

Refer to the sticky on the FBI load above

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Still Running Against the Wind