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Old 03-10-2013, 12:24 AM
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Default 9mm vs 357 recoil in snub nose

Ok, have a question, not sure this is the right place to ask it, maybe a physics professor would be a better place.
I own a Smith 940 9mm and a 640 Pro in .357.
The 940 with Winchester Ranger 127 grain +p+ has an MV of about 1200 fps.
The 640 with 125 grain Gold Dot .357 has an MV of about 1175 fps. Now, here's the question.
The .357 has noticable more felt recoil and muzzle blast compared to the 9mm. Both guns weigh roughly the same and to me it would make sense both guns would recoil the same. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, right?
Anyway can anyone explain this to me?
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:40 AM
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I am not gonna try and explain it. There are too many variables. There is a recent thread on this.

It's only a few threads down.

Recoil Calculator
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:00 AM
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Fast powders vs slow burning powders also play a part in a loads recoil ..........one can be a quick snap and one will roll back on recoil.

I try to use the slowest powders that will give me the fastest velositys...........some really slow powders like imr 4227 are so slow they do not give you top velositys, until you are using the really heavy bullets.

In short barrels powders near the burn rate of Unique should give you the best fps vs recoil, PP or HS-7 if you have it ?

In the 9mm you might try a box of Federal 147 HST if you have the money or can find it..........
medium recoil and a Quality SD bullet !!
The 125 GDot in the .357 is all you will need, even at only 1200 fps, it is close to the Remington light mag factory load.

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 03-10-2013 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:57 AM
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Also, did you personally gather the velocities or are you trusting something written somewhere? The powder speeds will effect the felt recoil and sometimes noise and muzzle flash will give the impression the recoil is different.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:44 AM
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Default Good question

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Originally Posted by Infidel_319 View Post
Ok, have a question, not sure this is the right place to ask it, maybe a physics professor would be a better place.
I own a Smith 940 9mm and a 640 Pro in .357.
The 940 with Winchester Ranger 127 grain +p+ has an MV of about 1200 fps.
The 640 with 125 grain Gold Dot .357 has an MV of about 1175 fps. Now, here's the question.
The .357 has noticable more felt recoil and muzzle blast compared to the 9mm. Both guns weigh roughly the same and to me it would make sense both guns would recoil the same. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, right?
Anyway can anyone explain this to me?

Unless the physics professor in into handguns you do not want to bug him. You are in the right place.

You have two stub nose revolvers and you want to know why the much more powerful one kicks harder. The short answer is that the 357 has significantly more powder in its cartridges. Line up 4 or 5 2x4 boards and see which shoots the deeper hole.

Is your velocity correct? I doubt you are finding revolver velocity for a 9mm? And these charts below do not give stubby velocities for some reason?

I will check my reloading books and get back to you. In really short barrels the extra powder gives a lot of flash and recoil without nearly the extra velocity/energy of longer barrels. But it should be noticeably better in the .357. You might need to use heavier bullets to see the benefits of the greater powder charge in the 357?

Both .357 and 9mm have about 35,000 psi chamber pressure (if memory serves) but the 9mm has less powder. So this is curious enough to give a look.

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .357 Mag Results

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results

Like I say, I will get back to you after I check some old books with the right charts? If I cannot make a logical explanation the reloading forum certainly can. Someone who shoots these things and reloads for them will probably jump in before I can read my books.
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:29 AM
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Well, I am a physics professor who shoots, and the answer can be found in the internal ballistics equations, which no offense intended, are too complex for the average person to understand, involving first and second order differential equations.

The short answer is your premise for your reasoning is wrong, and you are leaving out important things like the amount and speed of the powder gas(think rocket motor), the difference between peak pressure and area under the pressure curve (what actually does the work of moving the bullet), and expansion ratio of the cartridges (important to efficiency). Also, your statement of Newton's Second law is just wrong, as the equal and opposite are forces, not energy.

Your question is about like asking why two cars traveling the same speed don't get the same gas mileage, and the short answer is the same: there's more to it than that.

Here's simplified articles that may help with the concepts.
Recoil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Physics of firearms - The Gun Wiki
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:22 AM
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Default Best I can do without more reading

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Originally Posted by Infidel_319 View Post
Ok, have a question, not sure this is the right place to ask it, maybe a physics professor would be a better place.
I own a Smith 940 9mm and a 640 Pro in .357.
The 940 with Winchester Ranger 127 grain +p+ has an MV of about 1200 fps.
The 640 with 125 grain Gold Dot .357 has an MV of about 1175 fps. Now, here's the question.
The .357 has noticable more felt recoil and muzzle blast compared to the 9mm. Both guns weigh roughly the same and to me it would make sense both guns would recoil the same. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, right?
Anyway can anyone explain this to me?

So you are comparing a +P+ 9mm load with a standard .357 load on a paper chart. Tip, if it kicks harder in the same weight gun it is a hotter load and will shoot through more wood or bigger hole if one mushrooms and the other does not. You never get something for nothing. Believe what you feel more than what you read.

My old speer reloading manual number 9 chart has a 2 and a half inch 357 with 125 grain speer bullet to be shooting about 1223 fps with a standard load. With a 6 inch barrel they come out about 1400 or 1500 fps in reload charts and the average of the factory tested commercial loads in revolvers is the same.

A +P+ is a really hot load for a 9mm and you should read more about that in a revolver. I am not into even +p loads and I thought +P+ was machine gun ammo. I see wikipedia refers to them being shot in handguns. I am not aware of any SAMMI pressure standards for +P+. Be really careful and look for any standard pressure written down. Times change with wildcat cartridges, and this might be one.

My old chart for speer bullets give typical info. Shorter barrels will be less.
On my chart the 125 grain bullet with 4 inch barrel 357 is tested at 1388 fps
On my chart the 125 grain 9mm bullet in 4 inch barrel from semi auto says 1109 fps

My hunch is that a +P+ is stressing your cylinder more than any standard 357. My advice for what it is worth, is to stay with standard loads or buy bigger guns or get longer barrel length in your caliber. The 357 is the best ever at one shot knockdowns. 9mm is a fine little cartridge that was made small to fit inside a semi auto handgrip. That was possible with smokeless powder. (long story).

I see the maximum is 5.9 grains of unique for 9mm 125 grain bullet.
The maximum load for 357 with 125 grain bullet is 9 grains of unique powder. (The larger case can get the bullet moving with less chamber pressure).

9◊19mm Parabellum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the above wikipedia article, notice the chart about half way down page where if gives various +P+ velocitys at 1200 and 1300 feet per second. (If your going to destroy or wear your 9mm out early you might as well look up the same info for the .357.

Again, why not just be happy with standard velocity for your barrel length or trade for 4 inch or 6 inch barrel revolvers. Trying to make a 2 inch shoot like a 4 inch is really stressful on the gun, your ears, and felt recoil.
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:26 AM
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Default Good reading on +P+

Mr Infidel sir:

Read top article first. There is a chart a little way down the page with +P and +P+ velocities and pressures. ( I am an old fuddy duddy, my advice is If you want to feel right about new guns fire target loads for awhile) (Treat them like a woman - donít stress them out and they will not stress you out)

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Overpressure ammunition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:26 AM
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Default 9mm vs 357 recoil in snub nose

Keep in mind that not only the bullet exits the barrel, but also gases. Lots of slow burning powder creates more gases than lesser amount of faster powder. These pressurized gases exit at roughly muzzle speed in average and add to the recoil, since they have mass too.
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:32 AM
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Default Good reading on +P+

Mr Infidel sir:

Read top article first. There is a chart a little way down the page with +P and +P+ velocities and pressures. ( I am an old fuddy duddy, my advice is If you want to feel right about new guns fire target loads for awhile) (Treat them like a woman - donít stress them out and they will not stress you out)

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karrrhu3 View Post
Keep in mind that not only the bullet exits the barrel, but also gases. Lots of slow burning powder creates more gases than lesser amount of faster powder. These pressurized gases exit at roughly muzzle speed in average and add to the recoil, since they have mass too.
Ah, good morning, sorry just got up. Anyway, the velocities were taken by myself using my chrony alpha. I don't normally use the +p+ stuff out of my guns but had some I wanted to test. I do use both guns as off duty carry weapons. I have heard guys whine about the 940 having too much recoil, to me it feels like a .38 special, a little worse of course with the +p+ loads. The .357 kicks pretty good but it's not uncontrollable. I like the .357 with 125 grain bullets for it's proven record of one shot stops so that's what I normally carry off duty, my. My 940, loaded with 124 grain gold dots normally is on my ankle while I'm at work.
My question sounded simple, why would two guns that weigh roughly the same and push a projectile weighing roughly the same at the same speed have so much difference in felt recoil. I've been hand loading for 25 years,.mostly rifle, and can feel the difference between a 150 grain and 168.grain match king bullet leaving my Remington 700, I could tell you which is which without looking at them.
Anyway, I believe the above quoted statement sums it up as much as I'm going to understand, it makes sense when put that way, thanks for the explanation. I really was just curious..
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Old 03-10-2013, 12:57 PM
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And for the record, a bullet with roughly the same construction and sectional density will go through the same amount of boards as it's brother bullet if the velocity is the same. Just sayin.....
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Old 03-10-2013, 02:28 PM
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Boy;
we sure have come a long way from when the first cave man spat on his dry arrowhead, to help it penetrate and...........
reduce RECOIL.

Sorry, I tried to hold that one back.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Infidel_319 View Post
And for the record, a bullet with roughly the same construction and sectional density will go through the same amount of boards as it's brother bullet if the velocity is the same. Just sayin.....

Sorry, your original post was pretty brief. Somehow I thought you were new at this subject.
Anyway the professor came up with some good reading material.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:16 PM
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The faster burn rate along with the magnum primer is why its hotter over the 9mm.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:31 PM
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Boy;
we sure have come a long way from when the first cave man spat on his dry arrowhead, to help it penetrate and...........
reduce RECOIL.

Sorry, I tried to hold that one back.
But do you have any written proof that any caveman ever spit on any arrowhead.
I would guess that his wife put a little fish oil on it hoping he would bring home a tasty elk.
(Conspiring about how men can do things better is what they do best)
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:40 PM
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After reading that first reply and plugging #s in to the calculator its obvious that the extra powder is likely the reason of the increased recoil, makes sense now. Thanks for the replies.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:19 AM
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I think the slide cycling with the 9mm also takes away some of the energy in the felt recoil. I suspect that there is not much difference in felt recoil with the two.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
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I think the slide cycling with the 9mm also takes away some of the energy in the felt recoil. I suspect that there is not much difference in felt recoil with the two.
The 940 & 640 are both snub nose revolvers.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:03 PM
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I've had both guns. My 9mm had a much sharper recoil, but it wasn't as heavy as 158 Hydrashocks in my 640. After a while I realized I preferred the 357s recoil, so the 940 found itself a new home. I didn't like the moonclips anyway. The 640 and the 649 that replaced the 940 are still around here somewhere.
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:37 AM
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I've never understood why anyone would want to shoot a pistol round in a revolver anyway. I'm really not a fan of the 9, I have 2 9mm pistols that I really like, a D.W. PM9 and a Kahr PM9, but I'm not crazy about the caliber. It's a real PITA to reload and the 38/357 is a dream to reload.
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glider1 View Post
I've never understood why anyone would want to shoot a pistol round in a revolver anyway. I'm really not a fan of the 9, I have 2 9mm pistols that I really like, a D.W. PM9 and a Kahr PM9, but I'm not crazy about the caliber. It's a real PITA to reload and the 38/357 is a dream to reload.
Long answer made short, I carry a Glock 19 and have around 4k rounds of factory 9mm ammo, got the 940 for a great deal and it shoots the same ammo I already had a bunch of. I don't hand load for 9mm, agreed it's pita.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:10 AM
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You have a lot of abouts & roughlies in there. Are you chronographing the loads, have you weighed the guns? A few oz of wt matters as does a few fps vel. The 357mag uses quite a bit more pwoder to achieve the vel & that adds to the bullet or ejecta wt, but the blast is more likely causing the felt recoil to go up. Burning all that extra powder adds blast & that adds felt recoil. Also my 357mag loads are doing quite a bit more than 1175fps in a 2 1/4" bbl SP101, my shortest 357mag.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
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I've never understood why anyone would want to shoot a pistol round in a revolver anyway.
Then you've never fired a M625 w/ moon clips, combat revolver heaven. Wish I coudl find a 3".
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidel_319 View Post
And for the record, a bullet with roughly the same construction and sectional density will go through the same amount of boards as it's brother bullet if the velocity is the same. Just sayin.....
Of course. But the original post was about recoil.
Felt recoil.
That's the area of internal ballistics.

If we're hitting boards and penetrating stuff then it's terminal ballistics.

This reply was a year or two late but anyway. No1 else seemed to mention that in this thread.
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