Powder Cross References and Uses

[Rollbar]

There are so many powders on the market that are the same from what I hear/read. It would be nice if the vets of reloading post these, so us newbe's to reloading can get this figured out.

It would also help to list their uses.

Example, I did not know I could use Green Dot in a 45ACP/38spl-I did not see it listed, but I did see Red Dot and others listed if memory serves.

Just thought it might help some as well as myself.

Thanks,
Jim

[Nevada Ed]

Gun powders are like..................

buying cars, soups, candy bars etc...............
Lots of people make them and in all sizes and styles.

New loaders need to figure out what they want.............
if the materials are availabe...........
If there is a "Match"............
then if lucky, start reloading.

TOO many M&M's out there to try and list things that might work. Just need to do your home work.

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted by Rollbar

Example, I did not know I could use Green Dot in a 45ACP/38spl-I did not see it listed, but I did see Red Dot and others listed if memory serves.
Thanks,
Jim

Jim,
Even though you "can" use a powder for a certain application doesn't mean you should. Green Dot is a shotgun powder that can be used for handgun ammo but Red Dot seems to work better and is more versatile in handgun applications. The same holds true for a lot of powders you wouldn't normally associate with a cartridge/bullet combination. Sometimes it's a matter of having the powder and not knowing what to do with it that lends itself to using it in something "unusual".

For the most part you will do better sticking with commonly published data and powder/caliber combinations, especially if you're new to reloading. Like you said, there are so many powders out there but because that's true there are also plenty of accepted combinations whereas you don't have to stray into the unknown.

[Rule3]

There is no cross reference other than powders that are exactly the same like HP38 and Win 231, H110 and Win 296.

Between brands say Hodgdon and Alliant there is no magic, they both have powders which do pretty much the same thing.

The burn rate chart will show you how similar powders are in BURN RATE but it is not a substitute chart.

It shows the fast powders like Bullseve and the slower powders like H110 for magnum use. A lot of the powders are for shotgun and pistol. Then the slower rifle powders.

Go to the websites and look at the description for each brand and individual powder.

For example people like Unique because it is so "Unique" and can be used for most anything but I feel the same way about HP 38/W231 it also can do anything. Look at the burn rate and they are almost the same.

Basically with three (3) powders you can load anything (handgun) What brand doesn't matter. Kinda like buying gas, is Shell any different than Chevron or whatever.??

Burn Rate

[Nevada Ed]

Oh my Gosh the burn rate thing !!

These can vary for company to company so use this data as a
"Guesstament"............ since I disagree with some of the powders where they have been placed and with my load testing over the years with pistols,rifles and shotgun loads.

Carry on...........

[Rule3]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

Oh my Gosh the burn rate thing !!

These can vary for company to company so use this data as a
"Guesstament"............ since I disagree with some of the powders where they have been placed and with my load testing over the years with pistols,rifles and shotgun loads.

Carry on...........

It's good to know that you have more testing equipment and expertise than the powder companies.

[Cdog]

This ole guys advice is, "never believe anything you find on any forum."

Stay with manufacturer's published data.

[rwsmith]

Get a couple of manuals that have differing philosophies to get more recipes. The powder manufacturer sites are also good for alternative loads. I don't think any one source has enough data these days. A lot of powders will 'work' in a load but may not be the best for several reasons. For instance you can load .38 +P with Bullseye. I did that for an experiment but I have other powders that are much better suited for that kind of load. It's just not what it was designed for.

[Nevada Ed]

It's good to know that you have more testing equipment and expertise than the powder companies.
Per Rule 3 ..............................

Hodgdon.com has these powders listed as:

4 nitro 100
5 e3
8 reddot
10 clays
13 BULLSEYE

Tell me its correct !!

Maybe I have been wrong all along...................sorry.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_burn_rate.htm

[Squarebutt]

As others have said, it's not good practice to use a load from some anonymous source on the internet. The powder companies have excellent sites. I really like the Lyman 49th manual, as it uses bullets, primers and powder from multiple sources and has a very complete burning rate chart for a large number of powders. And because every thing is subjective to human error, it's wise to cross-reference a new load with at least two sources.

[Rule3]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

It's good to know that you have more testing equipment and expertise than the powder companies.
Per Rule 3 ..............................

Hodgdon.com has these powders listed as:

4 nitro 100
5 e3
8 reddot
10 clays
13 BULLSEYE

Tell me its correct !!

Maybe I have been wrong all along...................sorry.

No you tell Hodgdon it is wrong. Maybe you prefer Accurate (Westerns) older version.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...burn_rates.pdf

[Rollbar]

Thanks all.

I bought some HS-6 and some Green Dot (that's all they had).

I have a old Alliant book (2004) someone gave me and it has the Green Dot data in it.

Example:
.45acp Green Dot
200 LSW (target) 4.3wt - 9.9psi

38spl
158 LSWC 3.5wt - 15.9psi

[fredj338]

It's good to have choices, some countries do not. There are a lot of powders, but very few that are identical. Some are close, but close doesn't mean interchangable.
Most handgun powders started life as shtogun powders. Reality, an exp reloader can make ANY powder work for ANY caliberm, within reason. Just about any powder faster than LilGun can be y made to run in any caliber. Of course there are better choices as you narrow it down, but in a pinch, you could take apart a sg shell & within that one shell, workup a safe handgun load.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

It's good to know that you have more testing equipment and expertise than the powder companies.
Per Rule 3 ..............................

Hodgdon.com has these powders listed as:

4 nitro 100
5 e3
8 reddot
10 clays
13 BULLSEYE

Tell me its correct !!

Maybe I have been wrong all along...................sorry.

Understand powder burn rates can flip or change position, depending on the caliber & application. The burn rate chart is helpful, but not perfect. Look at several diff charts, you'll see some powders switch places.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Rule3

For example people like Unique because it is so "Unique" and can be used for most anything but I feel the same way about HP 38/W231 it also can do anything. Look at the burn rate and they are almost the same.


Burn Rate

This is the exact thing I was saying about misunderstanding burn rate charts. W231 & Unique are not even close when used in certain calibers. I can get to +P vel levels safely using Unique in the 9mm, not even close w/ W231. Powders all react diff as they push thru their max. W231 will spike, Unique will not. So never assume a powder that is only on position form another are even close when used in certain calibers. The reason W231 & Unique are close is there is nothing inbetwen, not because they are the same powder.

[BLUEDOT37]

Compare five different Burn Rate Charts & tell me you don't get a headache.

Green Dot will work fine within the confines of it's limits. (Don't bad mouth my cousin!)

[ArchAngelCD]

The confusion is made worse when people think those charts are exact. As a matter of fact, those lists are not the the true burn rates but relative burn rates.

I have always found Unique to be a medium burn rate powder much like HS-6, AA#5 and powders in that range. W231 is a faster powder in my experience but nowhere near as fast as the Ramshot chart shows. It is not faster than Red Dot, Clay Dot, Trail Boss, 700X and a few others.

Burn rates are very relative and in no way set in stone, of in one chart...

[2152hq]

You can read all that burn rate chart stuff, the primer 'brisance' lists, and the encyclopedic descriptions of the different propellants till your eyes fall out of your head and your teeth bleed.

In the end, if you're smart you'll still use factory tested & up to date reloading data.
Pick a load that suits your use, the components you may have at hand or are available to you and go have some fun.
Don't make work out of it, it's supposed to be a hobby and enjoyable pastime.

BTW,,GreenDot works very nicely in the 45acp and the 455 Webley.
So does RedDot.

[blujax01]

2152HQ makes an excellent point. I have never paid much attention to the tables and am not quite sure what their significance is to the reloader.

[chriske]

The same powder will display different behaviour (i.e. burning characteristics) when used in different environments (i.e. calibers).

Don't assume, check reliable sources.
Then re-check.

I've been reloading for 25 years & don't even assume HP 38 = W 231 in each & every application.
They might behave the same way in some loads but maybe not in others.

[glider1]

Something I take into account is how well a powder meters from my uniflow, 231 does great, unique not so good. I like to try different loads with different powders but if all I had was bullseye, 231 and 296 I'd be good

[Rule3]

Originally Posted by chriske

I've been reloading for 25 years & don't even assume HP 38 = W 231 in each & every application.
They might behave the same way in some loads but maybe not in others.

There is no assumption. They ARE exactly the same powder as has been verified discussed and debated for ever.

And to quote myself:
"The burn rate chart will show you how similar powders are in BURN RATE but it is not a substitute chart."

And to clarify, Unique and W 231/HP38 are close on the burn rate, nothing more or less.

The OP asked a general question, I tried to give him some reasons behind it, if all certain posters want to do is bash what the powder companies say, or my attempt to give some answer, when they say nothing and not offer any substantial information or "empirical" data to answer a question, then fine look it up on your own, read the damn manuals .

[125JHP]

I ended up making my own cross reference chart, similar to one used by Vihtavoury



I started off with the 2012 Hodgdon numerical ranking, but cross massaged it according to each powder Manuf site and other data. The yellow band is the cross-over area between pistol and rifle powders and contains powders often used in both.

There are a lot of questionable ranking if you rely just on the Hodgdon numerical list. Also we know that with so many manufactures, in a numerical list someone has to come first and someone else last even if they are of identical speed. In many cases even the Hodgdon ranking doesn't follow the burn speed listed in their own manuals, let alone another manufacturers.
So what I did was create a column for each manuf and made up burn rate bands. where vertical and horizontal powder position is relative to the numeric order Hodgdon publishes plus other info I was able to gather.

Note that this is NOT intended for substituting one powder for another - that doesn't work. What I put this together for was to see the relative relationships of what was similar to what other powder and could be used if data was available.

Its not perfect but it gives a better view of compatibility than a straight list... IMO

[Kelly Green]

There are similarities in load data between powders if you look at enough loading manuals. Because two powders have similar burn rates and load weights may not mean that you can use them interchangeably.

As an example, take two similar powders, A and B, that both produce 850 fps with 5 grains in a .45 ACP cartridge with a 200 gr. bullet.

Powder A also produces 1200 fps when loaded at 11 gr. in a .44 magnum case with a 240 gr. bullet. Can you then also use 11 gr. of powder B? If the manual says so, then yes.

What you may not know is that powder A maintains a burn rate up to 40,000 psi that is suitable for the .44 magnum. Powder B gets unstable at 27,00 psi and when you reach .44 magnum pressures Powder B becomes real disgruntled. At the 17K pressure zone of the .45 ACP both powders act much the same. Above 27K they do not. YOU DON’T KNOW THIS but the powder makers know.

Bt the way, burn rates are not linear.

[Skunkhome]

Well, burn rate charts will give you insight into the theory of reloading but as I have said many times before, load only using published data. Just because a powder is next to another on a burn rate chart you can not assume it will load similarly.

[Rollbar]

Originally Posted by 2152hq

BTW,,GreenDot works very nicely in the 45acp and the 455 Webley.
So does RedDot.

Question, does the Green Dot work better in the 38spl for target shooting (iCORE) than the HS-6 ?

Reason, a friend needs my HS-6, and there is more Green Dot on the shelf at the store. I get more Green Dot per pound to load as I was reading.

Both the .45acp/38Spl will be used for target/steel plate matches.

Thanks,
Jim

[BLUEDOT37]

Originally Posted by Rollbar

Question, does the Green Dot work better in the 38spl for target shooting (iCORE) than the HS-6 ?

Reason, a friend needs my HS-6, and there is more Green Dot on the shelf at the store. I get more Green Dot per pound to load as I was reading.

Both the .45acp/38Spl will be used for target/steel plate matches.

Thanks,
Jim

I've never used G-D for 38 Spcl, so I can't say, but it worked fine for moderate loads in 45ACP. I had to look in my older manuals to find G-D listed for 38 Spcl: 158 LSWC, 4.2-4.5gr, ~900fps, 15K CUP (SAAMI CUP = 17K & 20K/+P). I've got a can of G-D & some swaged 38 bullets that I might try together for some target loads. I'll let you know if I do.

[Engineer1911]

About 1983 I was shooting about 400 rounds per week in a S&W M52. I also had dabbled in shotguns (a total waste of time for me) and had 4 or 5 pounds of "shotgun powder" in the cabinet. I was out of "pistol powder" for the M52, and bought ONE box of Remingtion 148 grain wadcutters.

I read the loading data from 5 manuals, studied the Burn Rate Tables and concluded that the following powders were "close": Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, Win 452, and Win 473. Close is like "organic sea salt", rock salt, Morton's salt, and "seasoning salt". Spinkle a little on your baked potatoe and life is good.

I decided that Win 452 powder (obsolete about ~ 1990) could work in my M52. I shot 5 rounds of Rem factory ammo thru my chronograph and wrote down the velocity and observed where the empty brass hit the ground. I had loaded 5 round batches of test ammo, example 3.6, 3.8, 4.0, 4.2 grains of powder. I also owned a Ruger Redhawk .357 magnum so there was a safe way to shoot loads too warm for the M52.

I concluded that a particular powder charge gave the same muzzle velocity and ejected the empty case slightly less far than the factory loads. An ejected case would easily fit back into the chamber. I eventually fired 9 pounds of Win 452 powder in 38 Spl loads without a problem. Win 452 "shotgun powder" was about $2 per pound cheaper than "pistol powder".

After shooting this load for 3 years, the gun magazines started writing about competitive shooters using the same "Unpublished Data" I was. Within 4 months Winchester came out with load data for W452 in 38 Spl, 9mm, and 45 acp as target loads. And than W452 was dropped along with W473 from their powder list.

[rwsmith]

Is BULK rate.. i.e. How much will a charge of powder fill up your case? Many people don't like BE because a safe charge and a double charge both look like they just cover the case web. I'll be looking for similar powders that fill up my cases better

[Rule3]

Originally Posted by rwsmith

Is BULK rate.. i.e. How much will a charge of powder fill up your case? Many people don't like BE because a safe charge and a double charge both look like they just cover the case web. I'll be looking for similar powders that fill up my cases better

Two of the best powders for say 38 Special are HP 38 and BE. You do not use a lot of it, no they are not going to fill the case up.
Some powders do work better (burn better if I dare) when the case is filled up, Magnum powders like H110 for example.

You can't let that worry you on loading a certain caliber. You need to check what is going on. If you want safe and fill up the case, than something like Trail Boss.

Edit:

I guess I better add that there are of course other powders that work well in 38 Special from other brands or formulations, that's why there are so many on the market and you know what?, a lot are a so very similar for certain reasons. Of course the all work better when loaded on a Dillon also.

[Rollbar]

Originally Posted by Rule3

Edit:
Of course the all work better when loaded on a Dillon also.

Thanks. I kept the HS-6 as well, they did not have any more G-Dot so I kept what I had.

Waiting on some results and thank you for doing it.

Jim

[Skunkhome]

So Jim how is your loading going. I Thought about you when I took a few minutes this evening and turned out 100 rounds of .38 spec.

[Nevada Ed]

I tried to make,Bullseye,SR4756, w231,Unique and Universal Clays work in my 38 snub nose with the 158gr LswcHP +P load but for some odd reason it liked and would only group well at POA with ............ GreenDot and BlueDot powders.

I am not saying my snub is weird but I did finally came up with a Speer 135gr GoldDot bullet +P 38 spl load that shot at POA with a smaller group than the factory ammo...........
but NONE of the above powders could out perform this "Other" powder. (not HS6)

Strange.................

[Rollbar]

Originally Posted by Skunkhome

So Jim how is your loading going. I Thought about you when I took a few minutes this evening and turned out 100 rounds of .38 spec.

Thank you, glad someone is

I'm still waiting on the press-tumbled ALL my .45acp/38Spl so I'm just waiting. Have some equipment in but not the main stuff.

I will post when the equipment comes in.

Thanks,
Jim

[Skunkhome]

Originally Posted by Rollbar

Thanks all.

I bought some HS-6 and some Green Dot (that's all they had).

I have a old Alliant book (2004) someone gave me and it has the Green Dot data in it.

Example:
.45acp Green Dot
200 LSW (target) 4.3wt - 9.9psi

38spl
158 LSWC 3.5wt - 15.9psi

I'm sorry but I am not sure what I am reading here. What are the "PSI" figures? Seems like they are off by a factor of 1000. Also if that is the only powder grain weight shown then that is considered a max load. If so your starting load for .45 auto would be 3.9 gr.

[Skunkhome]

Originally Posted by Rollbar

Thank you, glad someone is

I'm still waiting on the press-tumbled ALL my .45acp/38Spl so I'm just waiting. Have some equipment in but not the main stuff.

I will post when the equipment comes in.

Thanks,
Jim

I'm glad I didn't buy the turret press from them but just got on the notify list. Then again, you locked in the price as it was when you ordered. Haven't a clue what the new price might be.

[Skunkhome]

Jim, Since the avaibility of powder is so spotty lately, you might want to make yourself a card with a cheat sheet to keep in your wallet with a list of powders you might want to keep an eye out for. Consult as many manuals as you can to make the list and when ever you are out and walk by a powder counter whip out you card and see if they have anything you can use. I have noticed that there seems to be no rhyme or reason to how the shelves are stocked.

Frankly I have been very disappointed with the anti-logical manner that most shops employ to stock shelves. It is as if the owner hired someone off the street for the day and said. Open these boxes and stock these shelves. Even the one shop in our area that everyone raves about stocks their shelves in a random manner. I miss the gun shop I worked for, years ago, where all the powder was displayed by general "burn rate". The bullets were first divided into rifle and pistol them by calibre, weight, and type in that order. Primers also stocked the same way. We had store copies of every manual in print and many that weren't and the customer could come in look up his load pick out the components and be ready to load. Every employee of the store reloaded or at least knew how to reload and could answer just about any question fielded. We had just about any calibre of reloading die set because in addition to all the standard dies offered by RCBS, Lyman, Pacific, Lee or Herters we had the entire inventory of CH die sets and presses that the owner bought when CH declared bankruptcy in the 1960's. If you came in with an rifle in an antique calibre or obscure wildcat like the 6.5 Super Pooper we had the dies and shell holder so that you could load it. Unfortunately the old gentleman, H. R. Norckauer retired in the '80's and sold out to two young men who tried to re-invent the wheel and ran the business into bankruptcy in short order. That shop was my standard so anything open today pales in comparison.

[Rule3]

If you do not have and can find the Lyman Manuals, the regular one has an excellent description of the powders by brand. I believe they even mention burn rate

This one:

Lyman Reloading Handbook: 49th Edition Reloading Manual Softcover



The Cast bullet manual does not but of course has great data for lead bullets.

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook: 4th Edition Book

[BLUEDOT37]

Originally Posted by Rollbar

Question, does the Green Dot work better in the 38spl for target shooting (iCORE) than the HS-6 ?

Reason, a friend needs my HS-6, and there is more Green Dot on the shelf at the store. I get more Green Dot per pound to load as I was reading.

Both the .45acp/38Spl will be used for target/steel plate matches.

Thanks,
Jim

Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37

I mentioned in another of your threads that I had some Green Dot & would try to load some up. Well I did, but got sick & haven't gotten to shoot them this week. I did some HBWC in 357 cases, 45AR with LSWC, & 45LC with LSWC, to start. It's bulkier (flakes) than I remembered, but that's fine for light loads. I'm going to try for Monday.

Rollbar:

I finally got to shoot the Green Dot loads:

- loaded some of my old & tired (not magum worthy anymore but I hate to toss them) 357 cases with 148gr swaged lead HBWCs with 4.4grs of G-D for ~820fps. These were very accurate with very little residue/smoke.

- loaded some 45AR cases with 200gr LSWC & 6.0grs of G-D for ~950fps. Again these were very good. Not as accurate as the 38/357 HBWCs but these were shot in my 325NG with 2.5" bbl.

- loaded some 45 Colt cases with 255gr LSWC & 9.5grs of G-D for ~1175fps. Wasn't too happy with these. Seemed to start leading the bbl. I'd have to play with the combo to sort it out.

Hope you get your reloading press soon so you can start having fun with it.

[Rollbar]

WoW, thank you very much good info, and thanks on the report.

Check out my latest post and see what I got, not the LCT (not shipped yet) but something I might be able to get in shape ???????

Starting at post #241
Recommendations for a Starter Progressive Press

Thank you again,
Jim