Long ago, I used to spend an inordinate amount of time "working up" loads, for my center fire rifles.

I'd try many different powders, change primer types, different bullets, in an effort to find THE accurate load, for a particular rifle. Lots of time spent, lots of dollars spent, and I seemed to be dragging my heels.

I had a very accurate .243 SAKO, that I finally wore out, with about 5,000 rounds through it. I still have copious notes, from that period, with every little detail recorded. Hmmmm. I think all I did was confuse myself

The light finally dawned.

I started with the simple premise of the "correct" powder, for a cartridge, i.e. IMR 4350 for the .243, with 80 grain bullets. A high quality bullet was selected, for instance, the Nosler Ballistic Tip (which I regard, VERY highly).

Initial powder charges, from the manuals established a favorable velocity/pressure range. Chronographs help.

Now, the simple step.

Don't change a blasted thing, EXCEPT SEATING DEPTH.

That sweet spot, we hear about, where barrel harmonics make the load work, can be found by varying nothing else, OTHER THAN THE SEATING DEPTH.

I also dumped the premise, that the bullet has to be so many thousands, off the lands, to work.

In loading for .308, 30-06, .270, 257 Roberts, .243, .223, 222 Rem Mag, .221 fireball, and my new .204 Ruger CZ, I've easily been able to quickly develop a load, that will do 1/2", or less, at 100 yards.



I'm NOT a bench rest competitor, so this method works for me, for my standards.

In my humble opinion, primer make, doesn't make a large difference, Case brand ditto, assuming decent quality, and not using mixed brass.

Bullet quality is king, along with the seating depth experimentation.

Try it, seat that good quality bullet a bit longer, or shorter, and you'll find your sweet spot.

Quickly, cheaply, and efficiently.

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NRA Instructor

As my father told me when I was young........
"Too soon Olt and too late smart".

When you stop buying 5 types of primers and 5-7 types of bullets along with 4-6 types of powders for one rifle to shoot a bullet for a tight group, it is an eye opener when you settle down to one primer, powder and bullet to get er done........

When I started 44 years ago I wanted to test "Every thing" !!
Now I have mellowed like you and get down to basics, but it was a fun ride.....................
but I still have w748, 4350 and 4831 as the old stand by powders.

I still try different velocities, usually starting at much more moderate speeds than in my youth.

I learned seating depths, many times shorter oal lengths than many would think turn out to be the best shooters.

I also learned some rifles aren't worth the effort. Life's too short to fool with difficult people, I definitely ain't fooling with any more difficult firearms.

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GOA
USA Shooting Supporter

JohnK, your method may not produce best results 100% of the time -- but I'll bet it does about 95%+ of the time. Sensible approach.

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Pisgah

I agree. Seating depth can play a vital role in accuracy, and in my experience, it varies from gun to gun with no rhyme nor reason.

I have to agree with you after collecting a number of powder and bullets, mostly powders. But on the other hand working up new loads is fun/enjoyable gives me a challenge. Now if I had to load up 500 rounds of a particular caliber for a competition I have a goto load. Now, most of my tinkering is with handgun loads.

OP, that agrees with what I found with my Rem 700 .30-06. I finally settled on a Sierra 165 grn BT spitzer over 64 grns of 4064, a relatively tame load. But my bullets are seated so shallow that I can literally pull them out by hand. The rounds are so long they won't fit a friend's Win 70 mag or even chamber. They barely fit in my 700. But they shoot under an inch at 100 yds easily, and that accuracy carries well out to 300+ yards. All by simply playing with the COL.

I agree with most of what you shared.

Bullets are extremely important. Where I differ:

Brass needs to be consistent. But I agree most of the major makers can be made consistent with some work. But more steps in preparation may be required. Uniforming primer pockets, deburirng flash holes, tossing brass with off center flash holes, and sorting by weight is needed for the lower cost versions.

Pick the right powder to begin with. Then use the Dan Newberry OCW to determine based on your barrel harmonics what loading works best. For only 18 shots you can find the best load for that powder/bullet combination in your rifle. Then adjust OAL to fine tune.

The number of possible combinations is well beyond what the rifle barrel will allow during it's life. So you have to start by reducing the important variables from those that have little influence.

I can't imagine there'd be room for a bullet with 64 grains of 4064 in a 30-06 case?

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GOA
USA Shooting Supporter

I find it odd that as long as I've been shooting, no one has mentioned this variable as it affects accuracy, except that just clearing the lands is the most accurate set-up. Thanks for the insight. If I get to where I'm using anything but short, light bullets I'll give this this theory a test.

I am thinking a typo on this. Even loading the neck and compressed I can't see it unless like he says the bullet is seated way out like .200" engaged. Then I must say that is some serious free bore you got there. I have max loads of stick powder in the Improved 30-06 that top out at 63 grains and this case is close to 10% increase in capacity. But who knows that's what make this game so interesting

regards

I agree. The KISS principle and Occam's razor rule the day in reloading (only 25 yrs. for me) as well as in most areas of life, or so it seems. And consistency.

Diminishing returns kicks in very quickly in reloading. The OCD guy works harder and harder, and gets less and less. The guy with a few powders, a few bullets, a simple die setup, and a slow consistent approach will usually have reliable and accurate ammo.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

Post 7 maybe a typo..........
300 Win Magnum with 165gr has max of 63grs of 4064
30/06 maximum of 51grs of 4064 with 165gr bullet c/o Speer data.

After 40+ years of reloading I have ended up in about the same place as you. When it comes to powder selection, OAL, and bullet choices most of the leg work has been done by others if you look for the information. Some rifles can be picky towards certain components but general rules usually apply. I always opt for premium bullets and Nosler is one of them.
I also have a Sako 243 which was made in 1966 that still puts three shots in a 1/2" group at 100 yds so I guess it isn't worn out yet.

Good discussion thanks. RE: the OP’s philosophy I think a lot has to do with acceptable performance for each individual. Of course there is no denying that seating the bullet and dialing in seating depth can be critical but seating to what ? Most seat their bullets to the tip and this really tells you nothing. You need to seat your bullets to the ogive since this is where the bullet makes contact and engages the rifling. There are some bullets and chambers that need the bullet close but not touching the rifling and for this you can felt pen the bullets and find out when the ogive touches. With the big over-bore magnums like Weatherby’s they need a big jump or ‘ free-bore ‘ to perform safely but at a cost of accuracy usually. Finally there are some that like to touch if not be jammed into the rifling such as the old days where breech seated bullets gave accuracy we can’t match today. The bottom line is there is no simple clear cut answer to how the chamber is cut and where the bullet should be seated without experimenting and keeping a baseline of data to work from. Keep in mind that factory chambers are all over the place since all they have to meet is SAAMI specs — Ball park ! That factory reamer has to cut X amount of chambers and after a while it wears and the ID dimensions vary. For me I want my barrel cut just before they throw the reamer away that way I know I will have a nice tight chamber. And if I am getting a new custom barrel I have my dies reamed with the same reamer. It’s easy for your gunsmith to do and insures complete support from head to shoulder and longer brass life. Blank dies are available

With that Sako of yours I can't hardly believe you had 5000 rounds out of the same barrel but anything is possible I guess. I know a lot of high power barrels rarely see a thousand rounds before the throat is washed out and 2-3000 rounds is considered exceptional with even the best of military hammer forged or custom cut-rifle barrels in middle of the road cartridges. I am sure you must have kept seating those bullets out further and further as the chamber throat eroded away. In fact I can't image any throat at all — Bofors steel or not.

Keeping it simple is no doubt the way to go for those who need to or want to but most of the time without experimenting to varying degrees you are unlikely to find your rifle’s potential. If you are shooting to ‘ good enough ‘ standards then duplicating factory ammo will usually suffice. But even getting to that level is often confusing since finding the right powder to bullet weight combo for your barrel will require some level of experimenting. The reloading manuals are developed using test barrels and these are not even remotely similar to your rifle barrel. The whole trick to the powder and bullet equation is finding a powder that will develop the correct pressure curve for your barrel length and the weight of your bullet. After that it’s bedding so you can be assured that there is nothing pushing or influencing the barrel’s performance.

I have seen more rifles shrink from 3” to 1” by correcting bedding issues than anything. When you want better than 1” and velocity that is when you usually need to start refining things step by step. You never change more than one component at a time and record everything. It is not rocket science but to nut cases like me it is the ultimate in fun. I guess the exception to all of the above is shooting a generic rifle and cartridge combination that everyone shoots and you can then just climb on and run with their data. I prefer something different most of the time and if there weren’t guys like me there wouldn’t be anything but the most popular dies for sale like 223’s, 9mm, 243’s, 308’s etc. etc. I love to take older cartridges that back thirty to forty years ago were considered anemic and on their way out and re-invent them with the newer powders and bullets. It is amazing how well some of these cartridges perform with modern powders. I talk too much

What you say is pretty much true and in general pretty good advice for most out there re-loading to save a buck or two and perhaps improve over factory ammo.

BUT— there are guys out there like me ( not many but we are out there ) who could care less about percentages and returns. If I reloaded only to hunt then I could throw away about 70% of my equipment if not all of it cause factory ammo is light years ahead in performance than it was back in the 60's when I started down this road. Since I don't re-load and experiment as an economic proposition I could care less whether I burn 5# of powder or not to get where I want to be.

As for performance gains and returns well all I can say is this. When you go from a 3" group to a 1" group that is a big jump and a real % increase that may have been obtainable without too much trouble or expense. Most shooters would pack it up and say you can't do much better than that ! But when you want to go from 1" to a 1/2" well now you are nudging up to performance increases that cost a lot more in time and expense. As the groups get smaller the playing field gets smaller too and there is little room for error — every little thing can mean a lot. But things really get delicate when you need 1/4" and smaller groups and velocity to boot — now we are talking the fringes of accuracy and what is needed for praire dogs or woodchucks but still not even close to benchrest standards.

I guess it all depends on how much you want and what you are willing to pay in terms of time, money and aggravation to achieve the best that you and your gun can do. It could be competition pistol, long range big game, woodchucks or paper there are still performance horizons that can be chased.

It's a .30-06 Magnum...or was. Dyslexia strikes again--46 grains of 4064. But the COL is verylong.

We all figured it was a typo. Not to worry

regards

I wonder if you would tell us how you determine the "correct" powder for a particular cartridge.

Good shooting (which with all those 1/2" guns must be fun)

I wonder if you would tell us how you determine the "correct" powder for a particular cartridge..............

I used to have a slide rule thing, with which you could measure case capacity, use bore size, and it would pop out the "correct" powder. This worked only for IMR powders.

I've been loading long enough now, to pretty much know what is in the proper burning range.

Most reloading manuals list powders, from slow to fast, and it's pretty easy to get in the right ball park.

You're looking for 85-95 % case capacity loading, not compressed, and not something ridiculous like a 60% capacity load (too fast a powder),

A bit of experience, and you will avoid something dumb, like IMR 4227, in a 30-06, for max loads, or .50 BMG powder in a low capacity case.

Basically, the highest velocity, with the lowest pressure. Most manuals list "best" loads, or "most accurate" loads.

A comment about barrel life with my .243, gave me pause. I always load on the conservative side. That rifle lived with loads in the mid 40,000 CUP, most of it's life. i.e. an 80 gr. Match HP at about 3000 fps, hardly a hot load. At around 5,000 rounds, it opened up to well over an inch.

I DO know, that the conventional wisdom, points to loads, with the ogive, a hair off the lands. I have, however found, that barrel harmonics, play a greater part, in accuracy, than close seating.

I thought I made it clear, that bench rest competition, is not my game, and am very happy, to have repeatable sub one inch, nice ROUND groups, at 100 yards.

I used to be more anal than I am now.

If you want to prep the snot out of cases, uniform flash holes, and weight cases, and bullets, etc., you are free to do so. I am not a bad shot, but repeatable 1/4" groups, are not in my skill range, whatever I am shooting.

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NRA Instructor

For handguns I found a simple formula years ago, I look at what Elemer Kieth or Skeeter Shelton had already done all the work on, and used their loads. Has worked for me for years.

That was the old Powley Computer. I still have one and actually use it from time to time for fun. They were the answer years ago and what wildcatters used to work up loads. Even Roy Weatherby used one in the beginning. Homer Powley was the go-to ballistics expert that a lot of companies and famous loaders went to for answers.

Thanks for reminding me know I am going to go see if I can find mine

regards

Atta boy!

Of course if everyone was at this level, the entertainment at the range wouldn't be nearly as good...

43 years

Some of you have been loading way longer than I've been shooting, it's interesting to read all this. Does anyone use a comparator ? I made one, not real fancy, but it helps alot when starting with a different bullet.

I've only been reloading for for 30 years and I have reached the same conclusions except for serious benchrest shooting which I'm far to old to care to do.

I hope you did a better job of copying their information than you did their names.

I'm dying here.

garbler - if you're willing to keep typing all this info into your posts- I am here to read it and I'd bet there are plenty of others eating it up too!

I pay good money on gun/reloading books to read what others know and I don't!!
thanks

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

Me too on pistols and rifles, another was Jack O'Connor. Gee, case prep, primers, powder and bullets it was all laid out by the wizards.