is it that 2400 is just not too sensitive to the amount of powder used ??????????

loaded up some 357 rounds with Penn Bullets 158 gr TCBB (Premium grade) and shot them today with my S&W 686 6" at 25 yards


loads were all Alliant 2400 with following increments:
11.4 gr, 11.6 gr, 11.8 gr, 12.0 gr, 12.2 gr, 12.4 gr. and a little jump up to 13.2gr

5 shots with 11.4 and 13.2 grouped less than 1 1/4"
5 shots with 11.6, 11.8 and 12.0 grouped less than 1 1/2"
and
5 shots with 12.2 and 12.4 grouped less than 2"

in other words they all grouped pretty darn well

Bob P says these are the most accurate 357 bullets he casts
hooked up with 2400 ---- pretty darn good

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

Looks like a really happy combination!

2400 has been a legendary performer with cast bullets for more years that I've been doing this and that's well over 40 years. Not at all surprised at your results.

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

You had me scared for a second...............
I just ordered some 2400 for the 1st time , ever !!

Never needed anything but Blue Dot for my needs with
the m19 but with a new 686, I can now push the envelope !!

Glad to hear that is worked well for you.

I have some 158gr cast SWC bullets I was planning on loading up to about 1200fps & couldn't decide on which of my powders to "play" with. I think you helped my indecision.

(Oh no, did I say "think"... that doesn't sound very committed)

Grouping has little to do with the amount of powder used, more the way your gun likes that combo. With slower powders, often accuracy gets better as load density increases. Onereason I like 2400 vs H110, I can download it a bit & still get good accuracy.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Those seem like light loads. I have been loading 14.2g of 2400 with 158g JHP bullets.

In my younger days, we used 2400 as the standard substitute for black powder in the old single shot rifles... worked well in25-25 up to 50-90. Wonderful, flexible powder

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Randy
Provenance nerd

yeah, they are on the light load end of the data
I am going to do the top half up to 15.5 gr later

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

you can also do the same with the 44 mag.

2400 is a awesome powder it only lacks in being able to make. Few extra FPS that H110 makes but it makes up with it in a lot of other ways

2400 IS A <FORGIVING POWDER> LIKE 748 IN A RIFLE.

You can "Fine tune" an accuracy load by different crimp pressures and also primers. I never know what will work out best. I have had loads that calls for regular primers and have cut a group in half by adding a mag primer or heavy crimp.

My 2400 is still some where in the middle of the USA.........
14 days and counting.

Enjoy that powder.

I always thought 2400 was the standard by which other powders were measured by in the 357. Been so since the 1930's I've read.

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Where we go one, we go all

You can't go wrong with any reasonable load of #2400 and a good quality 160-gr cast bullet. It is a great powder in general but really stands out for magnum revolver loads. I don't believe I would go up to 15.5 grains, unless you have some good reason for it. A long time ago guys would use up to 16.0 grains but I don't know anyone who does that these days. I use anywhere from 12.5 grains to 14.5 grains, depending on the gun and bullet. I think before I started loading 16 grains again, or anything close to that, I would get out a bigger gun.

I would consider anything over 15.5gr w/ a 158-160gr LSWC as over pressure, but all guns are diff.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

M29
thanks for the advice - actually I was thinking about (the high end) today because I wanted to finish my load development loads this week - to shoot next weekend.

the 13.2 gr load was pretty peppy and back in the 1 1/4" group
- looking at your range (12.5 to 14.5) - I really don't have any reason to go any higher - I'll probably stay right there - load about 24 more each of 11.4 grains and 13.2 grains - and see if my results are the same

this is fun

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

At 13.1gr under a 158grLSWC, I am getting about 1160fps in several 4" guns, 1200fps in a 4 5/8" RBH. Extraction is smooth, I would work to 14.5gr & probably call that max. Lead bullets do NOT load like jacketed. YOu always use a lower powder charge for sim pressures & vel.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I've loaded up 10 each in 4 loads ranging from 14-15.5grs 2400 for my Marlin 1894C, also calst LSWC. Anybody have experience with this combo?

How did you decide on 15.5gr as max? IMO, you are pushing over pressure. Caution.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Sorry to hear about your wait - I've been waiting for M1 30 Carbine dies about a month so far - I think I have another 2 weeks too.

I used CCI magnum primers for these Penn Bullets and 2400 because I was able to get a thousand a few months back. I'll save the CCI 500's for other powders and guns. I've read that I don't have to use magnum for 2400 - the books say to use them - so I know its okay

I want to reload a couple dozen of the 11.4 gr and 13.2 gr loads and go out and re-shoot - see if I get same results - after that I'll try a little heavier crimp as you say - see if it changes anything - I might learn something.

but I'll probably mark the die for the crimp the way I have it - cause there's nothing wrong in my book with 1.25" groups

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

I agree and take it a step further. For me, the cutoff is 14.5 grains for ALL of my S&W .357s. Those 16 grain loads I mentioned were used in the '70s when my friends were shooting M27s or HPs and were trying to duplicate the claims for .357 factory loads, which back then I believe was 1550 FPS from an 8-3/8" barrel. I don't think anyone even had a chronograph. I remember looking at the empties. The primers were... "pretty flat."

[IMG][/IMG]

I can't believe I haven't got a "NO PICTURE - DIDN'T HAPPEN" so far

anyway - I just looked at these groups again and realized that even if I mixed up 11.4 gr and 13.2 gr - I'd still have a very good group

okay 2 good loads for a Model 686 w/6" barrel at 25 yards
Hornady 158 gr. swaged LSWC, CCI 500 primers, 5.0 gr Unique

Penn Bullets 158 gr TCBB, CCI 550 primers, 11.4 gr, 11.8 gr or 13.2 gr

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

My turn to play !!

Ups just delivered the goodies.................
I was down to 150 pistol and shotgun primers !!

"Back in the saddle again............."




Got my stuff but have had THREE straight days of RAIN !!
Oh well...............soon.

I'm not sure if it's the powder I love to hate, or the one I hate to love. if it weren't so dam accurate I wouldn't go near it. the diff between 1 1/4" and 2" @ 25 yds might just be the shooter, not the load, unless the gun is in a vice or repeated numerous times. regardless it's very good. my belief is that it does not burn completely, so to keep adding more powder is a waste. may as well use the least amt that gives you the best accuracy, unless you have a chrono and are a velocity freak. to me it seems loud and recoils a lot. I limit it to larger calibers and longer bbl.'s. you may want to experiment with lower charge wt's and diff primers. or leave good enough alone, which is almost impossible for reloaders. and OK if you want to be doubted. how do we know for sure it was 25 yd's not 25', lol, jk. nice shooting.

nacho

the diff between 1 1/4" and 2" @ 25 yds might just be the shooter, not the load, unless the gun is in a vice or repeated numerous times.

good point - I haven't repeated these loads yet - but I have developed a good bench rest technique on sandbags and push the trigger guard into the sand bag also - I use a 4x scope on this gun for a very good sight picture and the single action trigger pull of the 686 is great. I do get very repeatable results with this method with other loads I've developed. The scope will come off the gun and my hands will come off the sandbag when I get a few more loads

..... my belief is that it does not burn completely, so to keep adding more powder is a waste. may as well use the least amt that gives you the best accuracy

I did notice more powder residue in the barrel with 2400 than other powders - but I just ran a snake through a couple of times - that took care of that - I'm going to repeat a few of the loads at 25 yards and then try 50 yards - if I can get good groups at 50 yards with the higher load - I'll go with that

..unless you have a chrono and are a velocity freak

no I'm not - but I am a grouping freak - I want load development to give me tight groups

how do we know for sure it was 25 yd's not 25', lol, jk. nice shooting.

also a valid point - I'll take a picture from the bench next time but attached is a pic from a previous session

with the 4x scope and the gun honkered down on the sandbag - its not really my shooting ability thats being tested - to me its a test of the load, bullet and assembly of the rounds - I trim cases, brush inside the case, clean the primer pocket, etc.

later - I'll try skipping some of these steps that more experienced shooters say don't affect accuracy - but not now

Attached Images

DSC01036 (Small).JPG (65.6 KB, 60 views)

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

OMG, you don't uniform the primer pockets on pistols? so many diff opinions on reloading. I've heard it's the most important thing and it doesn't matter at all and is a total waste of time. OCD isn't always a bad thing when it comes to reloading. I even trickle dispense and weigh each and every load (during load development and testing). I DO think shooting is a mental game and anything you believe might help, likely will. can't think of a thing you said that I disagree with, and am a group size vs a velocity freak also. if you find a good 2400 load for a 2 3/4" speed 6 357 or a 4" 681 357 I'm all ears.

To some of us that is a selling point!

I would guess most of us have the mild fast powder target loads and use the slow stuff for the 158gr thumpers. It's still fun to load up and run with the big Dogs.

test fire new loads in a Ruger first, wouldn't want to blow up a S&W.

I have been loading 15 grs. of 2400 and 158 gr. SWC since 1965. When I was younger with a 6 in. Python at 50 meas. yds. shooting one hand and off hand it would hit a quart oil can 4 out of 6. I always thought that was good enough for me. Velocity is 6 in. barrel 1429 fps, 4 in. barrel 1306 fps, 2 1/2 in barrel 1246 fps. Larry

Just loaded some 357 brass with the Hornady 158gr xtp bullet along with 14.5 grs of 2400 powder.

With the length of the bullet that goes into the case and the powder volume level......................
it sure looks close to a compressed load to me.

Hoping that the chrony spits out some good numbers when it stops raining here. Also loaded a 110 Jhp with 15grs of 2400 as a first try load for maybe 1300 fps.........
Plus a 38 special 158 LRN with 11.0 grs but it will be shot out of the 686, to be on the safe side. I don't need any surprises !!

(per #32)
OK, I will load a 158 lead with your 11.4gr to see whats what................
the Mag-Tech LRN has a OAL of 1.66 ", still fits inside the cylinder, though.
If accuracy is poor, I might go to the SWC style bullet that is a little shorter in OAL
and can allow for a better, heavy crimp if needed.

don't forget pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and since its raining - how about loading up some of the 158 LRN in 357 cases???

raining here on the east too

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I'd like to agree with you BUT

Ok, so heres my question. Nosler lists 12.3 gr. of 2400 as there max load with there 158 gr. sporting bullets, and claim it has a velocity of 1520 fps I believe. I dont have a chronograph, but this doesnt seem possible when everyone else is loading at 14 plus grains with this powder. Does anyone else have any experience with this bullet? I would change this load, but I got a group of 5 in an inch and a quarter at 50 yards with my 6 in 686 with a one power dot scope, so I really cant complain! My favorite gun and load to shoot! Now if I could only find some more of the bullets in this crazy market!

Peter

Most re loaders are never satisfied till they try this or that. It's what we do. That's a lot of the fun of it. I mostly load 357s' as my main staple with 158 gr Lswc hard lead bullets and 2400 with mag primers. Over time I've shied away from 125gr or less bullets. I've run between 11.0 to 15.5 gr and of the whole spectrum the 14.5 gr seems to be the sweet spot for me anyway. Good flat trajectory at 125' to 150' or so with a 4" or 6" 686 or 28 h/p revolver. Look up Skeeter Skeltons' 357 light to heavy load chart sometime. That is about a good of a benchmark as you can get I think.

When you're tossing max loads back and forth don't make the mistake of thinking a max load with a cast bullet is automatically going to be OK with a jacketed bullet. Jacketed bullets raise pressure just from the increased friction traveling down the barrel compared to cast, not to mention all the other possible variables like deeper seating depth, etc. A 158g cast SWC may well take a bit more powder than a 158g JHP.

Just sayin',
Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

2400 may not always give the maximum velocity but it's consistent & accurate. Hercules introduced it back in 1933 & it's been performing well since in many big-bores/magnums. Happy 80th birthday old-timer!!

Guess I'm going to start using 2400 again. Over 30 years ago 2400 was my go to .44 Mag powder but since sold off the M29. Will work up some .357 and .44 Spl loads using 2400. Still have few pounds of that stuff.

If only I could find some 2400 locally...

I was wondering this too. My manual for Nosler says max 12.3 of 2400. But all over the internet people are posting questions about is this right. I just loaded some up, but not sure when I am going to get to shoot them.

If that is not max, I'd like to try a little higher, since they are copper bullet, might as well go faster. But if it is max, I obviously don't want to.

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Beware the man with one gun.

ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT!

Simply a matter of different tests, bullets, test parameters,primers, day of the week,alignment of the planets

Powder charges will vary in most manuals and online powder company data.

Only with a chronograph can you tell the actual FPS from YOUR gun.

12'ish grains with a LSWC is a good load

Higher charges are indicated for FMJ rounds, Nosler may just be conservative, I don't know I, I do not use their bullets in that caliber, Nosler tests out of a 8.3" test barrel!

I know Gold Dots and XTP are higher but those are barn burners so unless they are for hunting it's not worth the wear and tar on the gun or your hand.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Why start a thread, when one has already been started? IMO you should build on what was already discussed. Not to mention it is not even year old, but I don't care if 5 years have passed.

I was googling this, and came across a number of sites discussing this.

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Beware the man with one gun.

Over the past 40 years I have worked up many loads with many powders. Finally came to my senses and settled on the trinity Bullseye-Unique-2400.

2400 has gone into my 44 mag, 44 special, 357 mag, .22 hornet and .30 cal carbine - all with great results.

BE goes into the target loads and Unique goes into the middle of the road loads.

I have found with 2400, the best performance comes with the upper end loads.

Well with slower powders, loading light can make them very dirty, not enough pressure to get the powder to burn completely. SO yes, in many powders, adding more makes them shoot "cleaner". If you want lower vel, use a faster powder, not less of a slower powder.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

No problem with bringing up an old thread if the initial OP was discussing Jacketed bullets. The thread drifted to Nosler bullets when it was about lead bullets.? Seems like a different topic.

Different bullet, different test, different indicated velocities.

Nosler also indicates that their load is the most accurate tested

Regardless, I think I still answered your question

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Still Running Against the Wind

Ha! I didn't notice...

I was just going to mention that 2400 has made the best cast bullet rifle loads I've ever made for old milsurp rifles.

I too am a 2400 fan . I've used 13.5 - 14.0 with the Lyman 358429 or 358156 in 357 for years & with the HP versions 15.0grs . My 38/44 I use 12.5grs with either of the above . Have also used it in all kinds of cast loads for milsurp rifles & in 22 Hornet also . Another good combo for me has been ( 357 mag ) 16.0grs with a HP 358477 ( 150gr ) . Explosive performance on on bobcats , foxes , coyotes & other vermin .

OK, since this thread has drifted but still about 2400 powder.

I'll add this. I am not advocating going against any published data and I do not even recommend using Max loads except for perhaps hunting needs. It is pretty difficult to blow up a gun with very slow powders when the case is near maximum capacity as in 2400 and max loads.

Hornandy lists a Max of 14.3 grains with their 158 gr XTP

Lyman lists 14.9 with the same bullet!

Speer lists 14.8 with their 158 GD

Nosler lists 12.3 gr with their bullet (listed also as most accurate and is at 81% load density)

If you look at the start loads for Hornady they are way lower than Speer and Lyman, Nosler only gives a 1.0 gr difference?

Is their bullet that much different than Hornady or Speer? I doubt it.

It's up to the reloader to do the math and decide what load is worth it and safe to use.

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Still Running Against the Wind

[threadjack]

I actually use Green Dot in my .38, 9mm and .45ACP target loads. I discovered it in '09 when Bullseye was unobtanium. It's a bit slower than Bullseye and load data is almost identical but it's about 1/3 more bulky so the 9mm case starts getting kinda full at about 4.2-ish gr.

[/threadjack] Carry on...

Rule3;

that Hornady data is very close to a factory loading.

With that load and a 158 xtp at 1.58 oal and a medium heavy crimp a 6" magnum should get around 1274 fps, +/- .

I see no reason why the Lyman load in a L frame would not work, also. One might have to "Crawl" up to that load if using it in a K frame, though.

I do not have a issue or question about it

The question was about Nosler and their lower charge.

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Still Running Against the Wind