Yeah I think it is weird too. I am loading 45 acp berrys plated bullets. After running them through the tapercrimp I run them through a factory crimp die like I do with all my bullets so they chamber, once they go through the sizer on the factory crimp die they are loose. Not falling out loose but I can spin the bullet in the case. Tried to re-crimp them with a roll crimp but it wont crimp. Please help

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Sounds like too much crimp..........?

Find out what the MINIMUM crimp on the case is for it to chamber and you might even trim the inside of your case to help out.

Good luck.

I load lead 85% of the time in this caliber, using the Lee FCD on station 5 of the Dillon 650. Never had this issue as you describe.

The other 15% using (typically) Berrys plated, didn't have that issue either. Sorry I can't help.

Can you load lead without problem?

Does this happen to each & every individual round, or just "some of them"?

Does this happen on "new" cases?

How much case mouth belling do you use?

Good luck.

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Due to the resizing of the case in the FCD your bullet is now undersize and will not hold case neck tension.

Pull one and check the size. It will no longer be .451-.452"

Bruce

Yeah it happens to all of them. The crimp die wont crimp after the factory crimp die. It creates almost a hourglass looking crimp once it goes through the fcd.

I load cast all the time with no problems. I needed to run them through the fcd to get the buldge out so they chamber. If I dont fcd them, they wont chamber in my S&W 625.

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When you resize the case ............... raise the die up next time with a 3/16th inch gap above the .45 collet and also
reduce your case belling to its minimum to start the bullet, with a case that has had the inside of the case reamed.

This is the minimum expansion that might help solve this problem with that "Plated bullet". Otherwise you need to buy some lead or quality jacketed bullets for that .45.

Ps;
you are not using "heavy wall" military brass, right ?

Good luck.

Do you sort your cases by head stamp or mix them all together?

Since you are having a problem maybe you should just try using Remington cases.

R-P cases are usually the thinnest

Since Berry's are copper plated pure lead they will easily reduce their diameter in the FCD. Since some cases are thicker then there is more of a reduction in bullet size.

A full size die will hardly touch a R-P case with normal sized bullets.

Bruce

Are they,by chance, 185gr. hollow base bullets? If so the Factory crimp die may be squeezing them to much. The brass springs back a hair and you have a loose bullet. Have you tried to insert a loaded round into your barrel, which is out of the gun, after you taper crimp it. If so I'd let it at that and go try a few. I've used the hollow base in the past and crimped just enough to get the bell out and they worked fine. Hope that helps.

Stop using the factory crimp die. AFTER I went to Dillon Dies. I have had zero issues with the Berrys 185gr RNHB in over 2000 loaded. With the previous Hornady new process Ti Carbide I would get an occasional round that would not chamber in my 625 or 1911. Bought a Lee Factory crimp die just to correct those few and that worked OK but I never ran the FCD full time for the 45ACP.
Chip King

Stop using the FCD.

I've never used one--ever, and I have had zero problems with neck tension or chambering; in both autos, revolvers and ARs using RCBS dies.

The FCD is only whitewashing something else that's going wrong, and it is creating its own problems.

You could do the plunk test with the barrel as you go and find out how you can get the taper crimp that holds the bullet together and it will chamber w/o using the FCD. You may be doing too many crimping operations. I've been in the boat where I try to do more than what is necessary and just made things worse.

A Taper crimp DOES NOT hold the bullet in the case. Its purpose is to remove the bell during expanding, that's all. The bullet is held in by neck tension as a result from sizing. If you taper crimp to hard you destroy the neck tension and have a loose bullet. Use the minimum taper crimp that your gun will feed but 0.469-0.472 is pretty standard. I run my large at 0.473 cause they feed still.

Well I normally load cast, but finally got my hands on plated bullets at the gun show because I was tired of the cast mess. Yes they are the hollow base. I just figured out that the fcd was collapsing the hollow base and that is why I have the hourglass taper. I cant chamber check because my gun is at S&W getting fixed. My friend is going to let me use his case chamber checker tomorrow. Ughh I think I just ruined 15 dollars worth of bullets. Oh well at least its only 100 of them. I dont use military brass, only remington and starline

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I shoot a S&W 625 revolver.

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Am I misunderstanding what you're saying...it sounds like you're running them thru two different dies to crimp? The FCD crimps & post sizes in one process.

Frankly I don't understand the prejudice that some have against the FCD but it does exist and does generate a lot of misinformation to support that prejudice. I've recently been working through a box of Berry's 230 LRN's using the Lee factory crimp die with zero issues like this. Simple fact is the sizing ring in the Lee FCD is set to size the casing to the SAAMI maximum diameter for the caliber. Typically it won't do any sizing at all UNLESS the bullet is oversize AND the casing has a heavier than typical wall thickness. With a Berry's bullet the only casings that I've encountered that bring the sizing ring into play are PMC or S&B head stamped. In addition I have yet to have one single bullet fail to crimp solidly even when it's a distinctly heavy walled sample of the S&B.

IMO something else is at play here and it's likely to be in a prior operation. Possibly it is a sizing die that is worn to the point where it's no longer providing proper neck tension. Next potential and rather likely problem area is a belling die that hasn't been set up correctly, as in belling the casing way too deeply.

Checks.

Take a sized casing that has nothing else done to it and insert a bullet into the casing. That bullet should just barely be gripped in the opening and a gentle nudge should tip the bullet enough to leave it cockeyed. If you have calipers the sized casing should measure between 0.466 and 0.467 inch.

Next bell the casing and take that bullet and insert it into the casing. If the casing has been properly belled that bullet should only insert about 0.03 inch into the casing and should wedge firmly enough in the casing that you can easily pick up bullet and casing without a concern they might separate. Note, one common mistake made by a newby is belling the casing deeply enough to fully accept the bullet without it being pressed in. In your case this is what I suspect may be your problem. All you need or want to do is bell the mouth of the casing so that the edge of the casing won't shave lead or jacketing as the bullet is pressed into the casing. If you bell the casing deep enough for the full engagement of the bullet you won't have any neck tension and the end result after crimping will be just as you have described.

BTW, I try and minimize the amount that I bell the casings and run my crimps rather light. My taper crimps are set so that they only 0.002 to 0.003 inch and no more. By doing this it's my hope that I'll extend casing life by a few more cycles. As for any functional effect of being conservative, I've had no issues at all with either setback in my 1911's or bullet pull in my 625.

STOP using the LFCD, *** anyway. If they are crimped fine using the taper crimp, then likely the sizing ring is slightly swaging the bulle down & the case springs back, loose bullets, especially w/ RP brass & 0.451" bullets. In my testing of the LFCD, it offers little in reliability buy can degrade accuracy, ESPECIALLY w/ plated ro soft lead bullets. It's not hearsay, tested one fo myself, it can cause mpore issues than it solves. These were shot @ 50ft, repeated twice, sm results. No LFCD for me. in my first 35yrs loading & none for the next 25+.

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OK, then do the plunk test on your chambers.

I have never used the Lee FCD, and have never needed it. If your components and dies are within spec., and properly adjusted, your reloads should chamber without issue.

Larry

Like others have mentioned , stop using the lfcd. It dosen't do anything but cause accuracy problems.

...I use the Lee CFCD for all my loading with excellent results and 85% of what I shoot are Berry's plated bullets in .38 Super, 9mm, .45 ACP and .41 and .44 Magnum...have never had an issue. Cast, jacketed or plated all work fine....

This is 6 shots at 50'...the one "out" was the aiming point for the next 5. .41 Magnum 657 Mountain Gun with a 210 Berry's and 8.0 grains of Unique.





230 Leadhead Keith at 20 yards...





300 grain LBT at 50 yards...




...all crimped with the CFCD....

Bob

As I stated the Lee FCD generates a lot of prejudice and a lot of misinformation to support that prejudice. In one case we see groupings posted that I couldn't shoot on my best day without using optics but the sample size is too small to be statistically significant.

In an effort to clarify things a bit I've just pulled a bullet from a casing loaded using the Lee FCD and a fresh Berry's bullet from the stock box on my reloading bench. Since my digital calipers I use on my reloading bench only read down to 3 digits I'll take the bullets into the measurement lab at work and get a good reading on the diameter using 4 place mics that read to the 50 millionths. Then tonight I'll take an idle RCBS taper crimp die out of my stash, load it into a casing and repeat the measurements for that bullet. End of Tuesday I should have a solid set of comparison measurements between an RCBS taper crimp and the Lee FCD.

BTW, I don't use a barrel or revolver chamber for my plunk tests, I use an actual casing gage IIRC made by Lyman. Using the Lee FCD there really isn't any need to test a round for fit, every single assembled round I ever made using the RCD fit. Some with a very light drag but that is still a GO condition. I can't say the same for assembled rounds using the presently idle RCBS taper crimp die, on occasion I would get an assembled round that wouldn't pass in the casing gage.

I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for .45ACP, and I like it. Different people, different results. Don't start that one. What nearly all of us don't do is crimp twice. If the bullet is loose in the case, but the case chambers, the bullet has been squeezed. It really isn't rocket science.
The purpose of the crimp is to take out the belling. If the bullet was tight before the crimp, but isn't after the crimp, then you are way the heck over crimping. Pick one crimp die, re-read the instructions, and re-set that last stage of the press.

Scooter gives you some good procedures and FloridaFlier probably tells you what the problem is.
If seating and crimping in separate steps, the first die should be turned out enough that it only seats and does not crimp. The FCD should remove the flare in the case mouth.

Stop crimping twice! I've done the same thing you're doing in the past but it only took me a few rounds to figure it out. The FCD is squeezing the lead bullet down too far and it doesn't spring back like the brass does.

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SWCA 1821

Thanks for all the input guys. Turns out you cant FC the hollow base bullets. It crushes the cone. Good ol taper crimp is going to have to do.

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I used a FCD to fix some rounds that got messed up when my Seat/crimp die got out of adjustment. After resetting the die, I've never needed the FCD again. Is that misinformation?

FYI, the crimp produced by the 45ACP Lee FCD is in fact a Taper Crimp. Only in the revolver handgun calibers is a rolled crimp produced. As for the rifle calibers, it's a completely different design that produces a Collet Crimp similar that that seen in Factory ammunition. IMO the ONLY Lee crimp die that actually produces a crimp using the same technique as makers such as Federal are the Collet crimp dies in the rifle calibers. Basically in the handgun calibers it's simply a crimp die with a sliding crimp ring and a sizing ring in the base of the die.

Which brings me to the interim results of what I measured today. An unused Berry's 230 grain LRN in 45 ACP measured at 0.45175 inch using Mititoyo 4 1/2 place digital micrometers that were checked for zero setting prior to the measurement. A bullet that was loaded into a casing using the Lee FCD and then pulled measured 0.45110 inch. So the effect of pressing the bullet into the casing and then crimping it using the FCD resulted in a reduction in the diameter of 0.00065 inch. It's also worth noting that the resulting size is within 1/10,000 inch of the SAAMI specified bullet diameter for the 45 ACP. IMO to say the FCD causes undersized bullets and reduces accuracy is unfounded and cannot be supported by actual measurements.

However, I will admit this is a one bullet sample and an honest statistically relevant study may result in a shift in the mean diameter of perhaps 0.0002 inch or so. With these bullets being a bit difficult to acquire and costing about 15 cents each I'm just not inclined to do a wider study. In simple terms even if the mean diameter were reduced slightly in a wider study I don't think that difference would be large enough to produce a measurable difference in the accuracy produced.

Next step will be to produce a dummy round using my RCBS press and crimp die and measure the results. I also intend to check to see if the assembled dummy fits properly in my casing gage. Results for this stage will be posted tomorrow.

"IMO to say the FCD causes undersized bullets and reduces accuracy is unfounded and cannot be supported by actual measurements. "

I would say that your sample is way to small to draw any conclusion.
The problem being case thickness varies and a thicker case will be squeezed more than a thin case.
Just for fun I took my FCD, which I have only used once, and ran a case with a bullet into the die. The case measured .473" before and .470" afterwards.
The bullet being hard cast did not become loose in the case. The bullet will still be undersized by the .003" that the die reduced the diameter most likely affecting accuarcy and possibly causing leading.

The Lee die comes with an instructions sheet. Part of that sheet reads:

"We certainly don't recommend knowingly loading excessively oversize bullets. While the die will size the bullet and case to fit any standard chamber, the quality will suffer. The bullet will no longer be a press fit because the case will spring back more than the lead."

In the op's case the soft lead hollow base could not spring back. resulting in a loss of tension.

Bruce

^^THIS^^ Where the LFCD fails is mixed brass & bullets 0.452" (45acp obviously). TO say it does NOT when many of us have tested to show that it does, is not proof it does not. Consider also, Lee's QC is all over the place. So maybe someone elses LFCD has a slightly larger OD carbide ring than mine, resulting in undersized bullets for me & not another user. Point, set your dies up right, the LFCD offers nothing a quality seating & taper crimp doesn't.

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I will admit that a one bullet sample is too small for a fully validated conclusion. However, these are actual measurements using a precision instrument, not claims that are supported by nothing more than opinion.

I'll also admit that a heavy wall casing will size the bullet down to a less than optimum diameter. However, that same heavy wall case might also create a jam at a critical moment during a shooting match or more serious event. Personally I would rather see a loss in accuracy for one round that a loss in critical seconds at a time sensitive moment. Finally, there is no doubt that there are times when the Lee FCD isn't the right tool for the job.

However, my point is that this die is NOT "the work of the Devil" as portrayed by some. My measurements indicate that it's a useful tool that is useful for a broad range of bullets and calibers.

BTW, I have that 0.45175 diameter bullet in my pocket to check for size after being pressed and crimped using at RCBS press and crimp die. Casing is a Federal small primer casing. It will be interesting to see if there has been any change in size due to simply pressing it into a sized casing. Theory says there should be some change in size but I sort of suspect that any change will be below the detection limit of the micrometers at work. BTW, the assembled casing was gaged before pulling the bullet and as expected the Federal brass didn't produce any issues. To be honest I should probably sort those S&B and PMC casings out of my inventory, however for some stupid reason it really pains me to dispose of any functional casing, even totally useless Berdan 308 brass.

1. Will the now .451 bullet still have the needed accuracy that a .452 will?
2. I don't think anyone is really accusing the FCD to be the "work of the Devil," only that too many use it as a crutch to fix poorly set up dies. It's like using duct tape as a repair instead of fixing the problem itself.

A 0.451 diameter bullet is considered optimum by many for the 45 caliber, so no that diameter won't have any measurable effect on accuracy. In addition the land diameter being smaller than the groove diameter means that the bullet will get squeezed even more once it engages the rifling.

As for Duct tape, NASCAR teams love the stuff, so it does have it's uses. I also don't believe the Lee FCD is in any way "duct tape". It's just a slightly different approach to producing a crimp.

Now for the results from loading a casing using my RCBS press and crimp dies. Results that actually surprised me a bit. First, the pulled bullet was out of round with a Mean Diameter of 0.45138 inch. Did not expect to see the diamter reduced this much by the simple act of pressing it into a casing, that's a nearly 4 tenths reduction from the starting diameter of 0.45175. Obviously our brass casings are capable of developing a rather notable amount of force. It's also obvious that has either a variation in either wall thickness or hardness around the circumference to produce the out of round condition. However I do NOT believe that out of round condition will have any effect on accuracy, the difference is too slight. BTW, the highest measurement was 0.45155 inch and the lowest measurement was 0.45120 inch. However, it does show that the Lee FCD isn't the only way to crimp a casing that can reduce the diameter of a bullet, just the act of pressing it into a casing can reduce the diameter.

Pros and cons about the Lee FCD abound. But I always think of the bazillion 45 ACP successfully reloaded prior to the introduction if the FCD. Proper reloading procedures make a "Band-Aid" fix unnecessary.

My only problem isn't with the die itself, nobody is forcing me to use one (I bought one out of curiosity and it now resides in a landfill in southern Oregon somewhere). If you want to post seating size your ammo, then do it. What erks me is that new reloaders are told to use one rather than to fix the problem, properly adjust the dies. Kinda "don't fix the problem, just hide it."...

My problem as well. I have some how managed for 30yrs+ to reload accurate, reliable 45acp w/o a LFCD. I bought one to try, thought I would give it a fair shot, I was disapointed in the degredation of accuracy. Sure, it isn't a lot, many shooters would never notice, but it is there. My ammo is no more reliable w/ the LFCD than my properly setup Dillon dies. SO I just don't recommend it or really see the point.

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..that is funny...one of the bullets I use the FCD on is the Berry's plated 185 Hollow Base RN....and it is perfectly accurate...

Bob

I load Berry's 230 gn RN in 45 acp using a Lee Carbide 4 die set. Very important to make certain the dies are clean and free residue / build up from previous reloading cycles.

Have you fully disassembled and cleaned the dies?

Next I have loaded using Factory Crimp and seat and crimp in one step and with either method they chamber fine in my Colt 1911, Sig P220, and S&W CS45. In all cases a light / mild crimp has been all that is needed.

I use the Lee Powder Through Expanding Die and set that so the projectile seats snug not loose in the brass.

This video may be of help?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uZbTZCsIGQ

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