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  #1  
Old 06-03-2013, 02:09 PM
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Default soft lead wadcutters

I'm not a big believer in the newer fancy-pants hollowpoint designs, my current 38 special load is a 158 gr SWC-HP but I'd like to try something different. Looking in my old Speer #8 reloading manual, I see that they used to make a swaged 148 gr bevel-base wadcutter, in addition to the hollow-base wadcutter. Apparently it was discontinued and all they make now is the HB version. I'd like to load up some full wadcutter self-defense loads, but the hollowbase bullets tend to have skirt separations when loaded up above light target velocities. I think you can avoid HBWC skirt separations by reverse-loading them, but then you get tumbling.
Does anyone manufacture a swaged or soft cast (not hardcast) bevel-base or double-end wadcutter?

Last edited by hotrod150; 06-14-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:47 PM
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If a bullet is not going to expand, like a DEWC, it is better to have the bullet be hard, so it cuts and crushes tissue more effectively instead of the bullet deforming to accommodate the tissue.

Here is a great little article about full power wadcutters.
Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter | Reloading, Ammunition, Hunting | GrantCunningham.com

I load DEWC cast bullets, BHN 12, to 850 fps out of my 4" M-15. Also, soft lead bullets will start to lead when pushed hard, another good reason for going with a BHN of 12-15.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:48 PM
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Try Rainer bullets. I have a bunch of there copper coated double ended wadcutters and they work great.
I load them at target vly in 38 spl and a little faster in 357 mag.
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:01 PM
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Default wadcutters

I bought a 1000 (2 boxes) of Hornady #1010 148gr BBWC and these work just fine. They are, however, kinda dirty in seating from the lube that was used in their manufacture.

I don't see much difference in accuracy (defense distances) between this and the still manufactured HBWC of the same weight and diameter (.358) which I load for.

Best results for target work so far, is seat them flush with rim
on top of 2.4grs Bullseye. (CCI or Remington small pistol primers).

Shot from a 342 and my 642-2 snubnosed .38spl.

Last edited by JonF; 06-03-2013 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:46 PM
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In my M49 snub nose I can get a nice mellow 148gr wc load
at 775fps with a energy of 197 ft/lbs and 3.99 ft/lbs of recoil.

I can also get a Rem SJHP at 898fps with 224 ft/lb energy and
4.21 ft/lbs of recoil in a +P loading.

Sort of a toss up...............
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:31 PM
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I used to load hardcast 148 gr DEWC's for self-defense purposes before switching to the 158gr soft SWC-HP. My thinking behind the soft wadcutter is 1) a full caliber frontal area for tissue damage, 2) no hollowpoint to possibly cause premature expansion and limit penetration, and 3) soft lead construction to give at least some potential for expansion.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:59 PM
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I guess since Speer quit, no one is making a 38 caliber soft lead solid-base full wadcutter. Speer #10 book shows a max or 3.3 gr W231 with their 148 gr HBWC, and cautions against heavier loads because of the possibility of bullet deformation (skirt separation). Hornady book #3 shows a hotter load (4.2 W231) but also says their wadcutters are not suitable for high velocity loads.
I'd like to load some warmish soft-lead full wadcutters, but don't want to have a problem. I was poking around online recently and happened upon the Magtech website which has a page showing their 148 gr WC which apparently is available as a component. It is a hollowbase design also, but the cavity is sort of cone-shaped which leads me to believe that it would be less likely to separate & leave the skirts behind.
Nobody seems to have 148 gr wadcutters in stock, but I was wondering if anyone has loaded the magtech bullets & what they thought of them?
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Old 06-14-2013, 02:27 PM
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What's the need for soft wadcutters? If you're wanting expansion, you'll prolly want a fast light hollow point. If you want a lot of tissue damage from a full caliber meplat, any good alloy will do fine. My house gun is loaded with cast wheel weight alloy, 150 gr. DEWC over a stiff load of W231. I'm confident my loads will work fine in a personal defense situation where I will get good tissue destruction, shock, with little over penetration (I have neighbors). Before I started casting I bought cast bullets from Beartooth Bullets...
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:32 PM
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Default There are many manufacturers...

There are many manufacturers of double end WCs. I'm dealing with Penn Bullets now and they have a 100 gr. (?) and 148 grain in .38. I've done a little searching for a swaged BBWC but haven't turned up anything.
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Old 06-14-2013, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
There are many manufacturers of double end WCs. I'm dealing with Penn Bullets now and they have a 100 gr. (?) and 148 grain in .38. I've done a little searching for a swaged BBWC but haven't turned up anything.
check here
Roze Distribution: 38 SPECIAL (.357 DIAMETER)

mostly out of stock - but its a supplier reference for the future
search boatbum's posts here - he uses these ZERO Brand bullets in a M52

I'm still using HDY swaged - half dollar sized groups at 25 yards
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:11 PM
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Penn Bullets appear to be hardcast. The Roze bullets indeed appear to be swaged, but unfortunately are out of stock.
Here's my thinking on soft wadcutters: I want a full caliber flat nose for punching in, not slipping in like a round nose. I currently load a soft 158gr SWC-HP, but even though its got a full diameter shoulder the bullet nose is tapered so don't nknow if it'll punch in or slip in. I want the bullet to penetrate, and hopefully expand some also. Given the choice, I consider penetration more important than expansion. I don't want to use a light fast hollowpoint (as mikld suggests) because I don't trust them to penetrate and not over-expand.
Milkd, what's your idea of "a stiff load of W231" behind a 150 gr WC? I used to load a 148 gr hardcast DEWC over 4.5 gr W231 before I decided I wanted at least the possibility of expansion & switched to the 158 gr lead SWC-HP.
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:12 PM
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I use .38 Special MATCH 148gr. Full WADCUTTER's from Double Tap for carry in my M442 and M60. These are hard cast, non plus P, but are stouter than Target WC's. 740 fps from a 2 inch and 800 fps from a 4 inch barrel. I like the hard, sharp edge. WC's work by cutting a channel, like a broadhead arrow. Old school but reliable.
For practice, I use 148 gr plated WC's over HP38.
Unfortunately, the WC's print high in my fixed sight guns, but I will compensate.
I was looking at the base of a 158 gr XTP recently, and noting that it had a sharp edge and flat base. So, of course, I started thinking about loading some backwards. Thinking was as far as I got, but I wish someone made double ended WC's with that kind of jacket. Much sharper edges than the plated WC's that I have used.
I think that it is necessary to decide between the cutting action of WC's, and iffy expansion of a HP. If a soft WC expands just a little, and I think that is the most that can be hoped for, it is likely to to lose its cutting ability, without gaining much in expansion.
I think HP's work best in rifles. Small, high velocity bullets that fly flat and convert retained energy into expansion at the target. In handguns, they work well in jello.

Best,
Rick
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:34 PM
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Default The WCs are soft cast

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Originally Posted by hotrod150 View Post
Penn Bullets appear to be hardcast. .
The Double ended WC is described as soft cast, good for up to 900 fps. Looks like it would be a strictly target bullet unless you just wanted to shoot something solid with a soft WC.
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:35 AM
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The Hornady #1010 DEWC that Jonf mentioned is apparently discontinued. I took another look online at the Penn 148 DBBWC, it is indeed described as soft cast as rwsmith noted. It is a full wadcutter but I wonder about a bevelled leading end being less effective at cutting a wound channel than one with sharp-corners? Like riverrat said, it seems like a sharper edge would cause more damage.
I also re-read the Ed Harris article (linked in the second post) about full-charge wadcutter loads. Good writing and food for thought. I might yet go back to hardcast WC's, although ideally one with a sharp-cornered leading edge rather than bevelled.
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Old 06-15-2013, 12:13 PM
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Yet another good reason to take up casting your own. Commercial bullet availability is driven by the vagaries of the market. I have a half dozen or so different wadcutter molds and can be in production in about a half hour or so.
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Old 06-15-2013, 12:30 PM
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Many years ago, there was a movement to 148 gr. HBWC seated in reverse creating a very large HP cavity. Seated over somewhere around 5 gr. Unique was touted as a close in defense load that wouldn't penetrate home walls. I know I made some up and shot into some water jugs, and they did a real number but didn't penetrate the jug fully. They weren't accurate much beyond 7-10 yards, which was deemed O.K. as it was within the confines of a normal room.
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Old 06-15-2013, 01:45 PM
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I started a thead about reverse-loaded HBWC's a few weeks ago. An old Combat Handguns magazine I ran across had an article about that. The author tried it & found that they tumbled, both in flight & after impact. He tried seating a single BB shot in the cavity & found that moved the center of gravity forward enough to stablize the bullet. He made up some BB-enhanced wadcutters by pressing the shot into place (which swelled the HB of the bullet) and then using a bullet-sizing die to resize the bullet to the proper diameter. An awful lot fofwork, but he reported good accuracy with awesome expansion. That article is what got me thinking about full-charge soft lead wadcutters.
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Old 06-16-2013, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod150 View Post
Penn Bullets appear to be hardcast. The Roze bullets indeed appear to be swaged, but unfortunately are out of stock.
Here's my thinking on soft wadcutters: I want a full caliber flat nose for punching in, not slipping in like a round nose. I currently load a soft 158gr SWC-HP, but even though its got a full diameter shoulder the bullet nose is tapered so don't nknow if it'll punch in or slip in. I want the bullet to penetrate, and hopefully expand some also. Given the choice, I consider penetration more important than expansion. I don't want to use a light fast hollowpoint (as mikld suggests) because I don't trust them to penetrate and not over-expand.
Milkd, what's your idea of "a stiff load of W231" behind a 150 gr WC? I used to load a 148 gr hardcast DEWC over 4.5 gr W231 before I decided I wanted at least the possibility of expansion & switched to the 158 gr lead SWC-HP.
Don't quote me on this; I use the same 4.5 gr. load, which is a hair over max. according to my Lyman manual. I shoot a bunch in my 4" 357, but only a few in my 2" 38, just to keep familiar with the load in my house gun. From my limited research this load would penetrate gel about 12"-13" and not expand (I didn't do the testing myself but researched it on-line). If I were to use this load in a human target at "belly gun distances" I would be pretty confident it would be a good fight stopper, not as good as my 45 ACP (my desk gun), but for my needs it'll work...

I'm not a ballistician nor a combat vet (not military but Mas Ayoob type) but my research tell me a 158 gr LSWCHP at .38 Special velocities will act much like a solid RNFP. The shoulders of SWC don't cut flesh as it's pushed away by the nose and a lead hollow point would have to be pretty soft for any expansion. I don't have my research info nearby, and it's all what I've read on forums, texts, and manuals so all this is just opinion; FWIW...

Last edited by mikld; 06-16-2013 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:16 PM
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I've always looked upon wad cutters as target ammo. For self defense there are many choices tested and proven by the FBI and numerous police agencies. I've never heard of a LEO carrying a wad cutter.
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:22 PM
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Wadcutters outperform round nose bullets in 38 Spl by doing more damage to soft tissue.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod150 View Post
Looking in my old Speer #8 reloading manual, I see that they used to make a swaged 148 gr bevel-base wadcutter, in addition to the hollow-base wadcutter. Apparently it was discontinued and all they make now is the HB version.
Does Speer still make a 158 gr. SWCHP? That should do a good job for those who like the simpler things.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:21 PM
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Default The improved version

The Speer Gold Dot® bullets are the modern version of the reversed wadcutter with the large cavity but are improved by controlled expansion at actual handgun velocities compared to older JHP bullets that could not be counted on to expand especially at short barrel velocities (85% failure to expand). I'd prefer the Gold Dot or another improved bullet like the XTP® first, followed by a SWCHP, followed by full wadcutter followed by any pellet of lead that could put a hole in someone. If not any of those I'd throw my gun at the perp.

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Old 06-17-2013, 01:01 PM
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The Speer swaged 158 gr SWC-HP is still mfr'd, in fact Midway even (currently) has them in stock. Kind of the standard projectile for the "FBI load".
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:03 PM
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My opinion on .38 wadcutters for SD loads is maybe you'll get lucky and when it starts to tumble you hit the bad guy when it's sideways.

If you want a bigger hole than .357, get a M1911A1.
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Old 06-18-2013, 12:40 PM
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My opinion on .38 wadcutters for SD loads is maybe you'll get lucky and when it starts to tumble you hit the bad guy when it's sideways.

If you want a bigger hole than .357, get a M1911A1.
Well hell, a .44 Mag, or .500 S&W is even better, or better yet is an M1 Garand...
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:24 PM
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I loaded some 148 gr hardcast wadcutters over 5.0 W231 and they shot all right, no flat primers or anything, but decided to back it back down to 4.5 for the sake of the longevity of my j-frames and to reduce recoil a bit (didn't really notice any reduction).
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:40 PM
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Holy cats!

I chrono'ed my 148 DEWCs over a mere 3.6 grains of Win 231 at an average of 854 fps out of my 4" Model 15, which is plenty fast and makes a 125 power factor.

What data are you using?
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:47 PM
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Magnus Bullets (Magnusbullets.com) makes a swaged 148gr HBWC (#514) and a swaged 148gr DEWC (#518).
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:58 PM
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Waywatcher, I kind of extrapolate from different sources. My primary source is my old Speer book # 10. It shows maximum W231 charges as 4.7 gr with their swaged 148 gr BBWC, 4.4 gr with their swaged 158 gr SWC, 5.5.gr with their 140 gr JHP, and 5.4 gr with their 158 gr JHP (that last two are +P). I figured 4.5 behind either a hardcast 148 gr WC or a swaged 158 gr SWC-HP was safe and I seem to have been right so far. Even though it says "wadcutters are not suitable for high velocity loads", my Hornady book #3 shows 4.2 gr W231 behinbd their 148 gr HBWC for a velocity of 950 fps. Not too shabby!
I'm not loading to make some arbitrary power factor for competition, I'm loading ammo for both practice and actual self-defense purposes and I figure the more power the better. God forbid I ever have to shoot someone, but if I do I don't want them getting up again after they're shot.

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Old 06-18-2013, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
Don't quote me on this; I use the same 4.5 gr. load, which is a hair over max. according to my Lyman manual. I shoot a bunch in my 4" 357, but only a few in my 2" 38, just to keep familiar with the load in my house gun. From my limited research this load would penetrate gel about 12"-13" and not expand .....
Have you ever chronographed this load? I have a "Chrony" which I hadn't used in years, when I attempted to chronograph some 38 spl loads more recently it didn't seem to be working correctly. Maybe just a bad battery, but I never followed through on fixing it. I'm guestimating both my 4.5 W231/148 WC load & my 4.5 W231/ 158 SWC-HP load at somewhere between 800 & 850 out of my 2" j-frames.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohica793 View Post
Magnus Bullets (Magnusbullets.com) makes a swaged 148gr HBWC (#514) and a swaged 148gr DEWC (#518).
I just checked out that site, besides not currently accepting any orders due to being backlogged, it looks like Magnus only makes hardcast bullets now.
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:39 PM
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Lyman 49th shows a max of 4.2 grains of Win 231.

Hornady 7th shows a max of 3.5 grains of Win 231.

Speer #14 shows a max of 3.3 grains of Win 231.

Hodgdon shows a max of 4.0 grains of Win 231.

These four current sources, averaged, are 3.8 grains of Win 231. I think what you are doing is unsafe, and I am posting this time primarily for other readers of this thread, so someone doesn't think it's a good idea to copy you. Going off of 33 year old data, when there is current data from the same company that categorically obsoletes their previous data, is a recipe for disaster. People reading should be fully informed that you are well beyond current and accepted loading data.
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by hotrod150 View Post
I just checked out that site, besides not currently accepting any orders due to being backlogged, it looks like Magnus only makes hardcast bullets now.
The swaged are all the way at the bottom of the page. If you call them they will probably take your order.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:41 PM
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Default Speaking of tumblng

I quit shooting targets with a 2" snub/158 gr JHP because the bullets keyholed really badly. Maybe for an SD situation that would be a good thing to happen.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:26 AM
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I feel that my warms are warm, but safe. You should remember that reloading manuals seem to be listing lighter loads as their max these days, due I believe to liability concerns- not necesarily because they are unsafe. Also realize that most loads shown for lead bullets are target loads, NOT high-performance loads.
My 4.5 gr W231 / hardcast 148 gr BBWC load is .2 less than what my speer book lists as max for a swaged 148 gr BBWC, and my 4.5 W231 / swaged 158 gr SWC load is only .1 more than my speer book lists as max- and those are both standard pressure (not +P) listings. I'm no professional loader, balistician, or pressure-tester, and I don't expect anyone else to take my word on what is or isn't safe- I'm just mentioning them for others' review and amusement. If you think these loads are unsafe, by all means do NOT try them. And thanks for speaking up and pointing out that they are NOT "approved" loads, I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that I am guaranteeing them as such.

Last edited by hotrod150; 06-20-2013 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 06-20-2013, 03:01 PM
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Lyman 49th shows a max of 4.2 grains of Win 231.

Hornady 7th shows a max of 3.5 grains of Win 231.

Speer #14 shows a max of 3.3 grains of Win 231.

Hodgdon shows a max of 4.0 grains of Win 231.

These four current sources, averaged, are 3.8 grains of Win 231. I think what you are doing is unsafe, and I am posting this time primarily for other readers of this thread, so someone doesn't think it's a good idea to copy you. Going off of 33 year old data, when there is current data from the same company that categorically obsoletes their previous data, is a recipe for disaster. People reading should be fully informed that you are well beyond current and accepted loading data.
First I never average anything in my reloading. My load development starts with starting loads (or very near, sometimes I'll round off a load from mebbe .3 up to .5 for a start load, just for convince) As I stated "Don't quote me on this" meaning I use this and your results may vary. I also stated this load is "a hair over max.", which in my Lyman is 4.2 gr. W231 (.3 gr. can be considered a hair, and not even close to "well beyond current accepted loading data") and I started way below this and worked up. It is a safe load in all my .38 Specials and while over max. it is barely into the +P zone.

I rarely give any load data on line because I wouldn't pay any attention to anyone else's data on line. I don't use any load data from forum experts, range rats, gun counter clerks or gun shop "Gurus". 95% on all my data comes from printed manuals and the other 5% is double checked against a printed reloading manual. I haven't run out of load possibilities using this idea for nearly 30 years of reloading.

Last edited by mikld; 06-20-2013 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:25 PM
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South West Casting sells a bevel-base, button-nose 148gr wadcutter. By the way; it's hard to find, but the OAL is 1.295" as I recall.
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