Does anyone know of a source for lyman429239 bullets? It is a 125gr 44cal. (collar button)design. Thanks

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PTLAPTA!

Are you wanting a mould, or some already cast for you to try out?

If you want a mould, my recommendation would be to go to accuratemolds.com and have him reproduce it.

If you want some made up, you should go to castboolits.gunloads.com and post a request in the casting forum. Very accomodating fellows over there. If I had that one, I'd cast you some, but I've never seen that one.

I am looking for someone who can cast some bullets and already has that mold. Its not shown in a recent lyman catalog. I found reference to it in an old book about revolver turkey shoots at 300 yds. They showed a load of 11.9gr unique with this bullet in 44 Russian. It almost looks like an overgrown 17 pellet! Thanks for the suggestion.

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PTLAPTA!

Well your question got my curiosity aroused and I went looking for a picture of it. I have a .429" round ball mould, and it drops those right at 116grs, so I figured 125 must be a collar button or maybe a hollow-base. Then, I saw the core moulds for half jackets and other less-common designs, but I couldn't find that number 239 boolit. Finally went to a list of cherrys and see it was a collar button bullet indeed. Probably hard to find one of those, unfortunately...

I have a 153 grain 44 caliber wadcutter bullet mold. I use these bullets in loading 44 Russian and low-powered Special ammo. I would be glad to send you a few to try out, and could cast some for you if you like them. I am out of town on business, so I can't post pictures right now.

11.9 grains is WAY too hot for a 44 Russian. In what kind of gun are these going to be shot?

The revolver is a triple lock target with 44spl cylinder. It shipped July 1910 and a letter with the gun specified that load in the other Russian cylinder. They said they used it for 300yd turkey shoots. There is a book called "The Long Shooters" (1912) by Altsheler describing some of the exploits.

Thanks so much for the offer, but I am really looking to duplicate what was done years ago. I will certainly be cautious in working up the load and if I can't get the original "collar button" bullets I will try some of the 180TC lead bullets I have seen for CAS.

This adventure will be more like artillery than shooting. With the 180gr @1000fps in a 44spl, to hit at 300 yds, the 50yd zero is +30" Always enjoy a good challenge!

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PTLAPTA!

Anyone have one of these molds?

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PTLAPTA!

As a long time caster I have never seen one. Good luck.

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Front sight and squeeze

Lyman or, correctly for the time it was still made, Ideai mould #429239 is a round nosed "collar button" style bullet. No weight is listed in the first edition Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets which was issued in the mid 1950s. It was an obsolete design at that time.

Until about 30-35 years ago Lyman would cut any mould for which they still had the cherry. They would also still make custom designed moulds, which is a good thing because otherwise some very excellent bullets would never have seen the light of day.

Back to the original question. This style bullet is exceptionally poor for nearly any purpose, and only marginally useful for their original intent. The "Handbook" cited does list this bullet. It is described as "...designed by C.H. Herrick for short range in the .44 S&W Russian or Colt New Service." When this bullet was designed "Short Range" was what in later years known as "Gallery", 50' and less. Since it was a special order, this is what is usually meant when "Designed by...." is used in the Lyman book, there were probably no more than a dozen of these moulds ever made.

You could possibly have a mould made by Mountain Moulds or one of the other shops that make custom moulds, but not likely. Dave Farmer possibly would do it. Moulds of this sort of design require a cherry to cut them. Modern tracer lathes used by most custom shops really do not do well with contours like this bullet has. Why you would want to pay the price to get a mould for such a poor design I can't imagine, but this is the only way you will get any of these bullets to try. If you expect to shoot them at 300 yds. you will be badlt disappointed. A round ball would have a better ballistic coefficient, and probably be more accurate.

The only reason there ever was for any of the collar button designs was to produce a bullet of approximately the same weight as a round ball that had a grease groove for lubrication. Most even appear to be a round ball when seated in the case.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Ideally (pun not intended I would like to find someone who has this mold and would be willing to sell me some bullets. While I am trying to duplicate the experiments of 100 years ago I don't want to spend $200+ on custom molds. I found one mold that sold for $63 back in April, but I was late as usual. I'll keep looking and try the 180's for now. Thanks

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PTLAPTA!

It's a long shot but you might check with B. K. Bullet Casting in Peru, Indiana. Bob has MANY old molds he has picked up here and there over the 45+ years he has been casting. I vaguely recall he had something VERY light for the .44 caliber, but I can't remember what it was. It might be worth a call. 765 (dash) 473 (dash) 7801. I would be extremely suspicious of any recommendation to use such a lightweight bullet for other than the shortest range "gallery" shooting. If you are thinking long-range (as in 300-yards)...

Just to throw it out there Matt's Bullets has a 135 gr .44 that looks damn close to the original design . . . Don't know if you're still interested in this, but it could get you in the ballpark.

Thanks KFrame! He has a 135 grain collar button very similar to the one I'm looking for. The lube groove is not quite as large which would account for the 10 grains. These are close enough for my experiment. Matt now has my order for some of these and I'll post the results when I get done. Don't hold your breath it might take a while, but I see light at the end of the tunnel! Thanks

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PTLAPTA!

I was going to snag an order from there myself, also very light for caliber bullets in .44 and .357 for some quiet plinking / small game loads. But found a source for hornady 122 gr .433 round ball. Any way please do provide an update once you have these little suckers on hand as I still have an interest in them. Just did not want to deal with the 4 month backlog he is dealing with. Good luck in your fact finding.

I am a long time caster and this was very well spoken. These are the facts. Why this was ever mentioned for long range shooting is a complete mystery.

Now. You will have to work with the powder charges a bit. The formulation of Unique was changed many years back. It's a little hotter now than it was in the '20s.

What is the source of the info that "Unique was changed many years back"?

The Unique bottle sitting on my shelf.

Would you please give us the exact wording on your bottle?

Well, I found someone who had 2 boxes of Matt's bullets 135gr LRN. Other than the 10gr and not as wide a lube groove it looks like the original. As far as accuracy, I have worked up to 11.0gr Unique with new 44spl brass in my 629 and it's 2.5" at 50yds. The original load called for 11.9gr with the 125gr bullet. I may try 11.5 and see what happens. I was pleased with the grouping, recoil is mild in this light bullet, and once the load is settled on I will try to duplicate the 300yd turkey shoot. I'll keep ya'll updated with my progress, thanks for all the suggestions.

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PTLAPTA!

Cool, I am beginning to experiment with hornady .433 round ball in SPL brass with very small charges of bulleye. Good luck closing those groups man.

Well...... this has some possibilities. I am up to 11.5 gr unique in the 629 with 44spl brass and the 135gr LRN. Velocity is right at 1600fps with groups running 2.5" @50yds and shot the last six @100yds in a 6.5" group. At least with this bullet conventional wisdom seems incorrect about it being a "gallery" short range only load. The 300yd "turkey" shoot will be up next. It may be a few weeks but I'll let ya'll know what happens.

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PTLAPTA!

Let us know how this holds up at 300 yards. To be honest, I am surprised you are doing as well as you are at 100. It would tell nothing about accuracy but it would be interesting to know what a ballistics software program would say about this load, particular if the information could be compared side-by-side with a more common 250-gr .44 load starting out at about 1300-1350 FPS.

So I was just going through my thread list and seen this one again, just wondering if anything ever came of this?

Well the loads above are 44spl++ to light 44mag according to a friends quickload program. I am glad I didn't shoot them in the TL. The 300yd trial will have to wait until the large field is plowed this fall.(so I can see my misses! and hopefully cooler temps!)

Pics-Bullets and loaded round, Ideal429239 125gr mold, and book that talks about 300yd turkey shoots with handguns.

Attached Images

	S&WTL135.jpg (61.8 KB, 37 views)
	IDEAL-429239-44-S-W.jpg (14.1 KB, 35 views)
	S&Wlongshtr1.jpg (57.2 KB, 30 views)

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PTLAPTA!

That is one strange looking bullet and mould.

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S&WHF 366

Having been a caster since 1980, I cannot for the life of me see how that bullet can possibly be accurate: there is WAY too big a lube groove in the bullet, and too much lube is a curse shooting lead. It will allow the bullet to skid... I believe C.E. Harris was the individual who stated to only use two of the three lube grooves in the 38 full wadcutter, and it was for the same reason...

The mold shown is the original design mentioned in the letter I got with the gun,125gr. The bullet I am shooting is from Matt's, 135gr, and it does have a narrower lube groove (which probably accounts for the 10gr. diff).
And contrary to "conventional wisdom" it IS accurate in my gun.

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