I ran across this distinction when I used to make my own snare drums. I would buy shells, hardware, and wraps from a supplier (like Precision), cut bearing edges, assemble and finish the drum.

I was a "bubba"whereas others who purchased larger lots of the same materials and sold the drums with a chrome badge on them were "boutique".

I see reviews of ammunition from several folks I've never heard of selling +P+ super-duper "LE-like" rounds for $1.50 a pop. They all say the same thing: "we have seriously tested our ammo (no seriously!), and it is the bomb. Is it perfectly safe for your gun? You should contact the gun manufacturer first. No refunds, no returns."

Now, if one wants to use that ammo, I will not argue with them. Not one bit. And before this gets ugly, let me repeat:

THE USE OF ANY AMMUNITION IS A PERSONAL CHOICE AND I WILL NOT ARGUE WITH ONE'S CHOICE OF AMMUNITION.

But for some reason, the folks who purchase this ammunition get all over me (and other reloaders) about how we better not use our "Bubba" ammo, because some dude with a funny name (who seems to be revered as a combination of Chuck Norris, Charles Bronson. Bruce Lee and Wonder Woman) says that someday, somehow - maybe - it will come into question in court.

Never mind that these "boutique" manufacturers are no more liable than the Big Boys and the use of any ammunition is the responsibility of the shooter, and the shooter alone. That they can point to their Yahoo web site and say: "See - disclaimer!!!"

It is assumed that because we don't sell our ammunition, we are not professional and that we have no idea what we are doing. Never mind that we purchase the very same components as the pros and that there is not some "secret society" with access to special magic foo-foo dust that makes theirs somehow better.

I don't get it. Really I don't.

Geezzz BlueJax....you ran outta the foo-foo dust I sent you???

__________________
UNDER THE CONE OF SILENCE

Buffalo Bore. They have a +P 380 Auto. There is no spec for such a cartridge.

My favorite it their 45 Colt "Anti Personal" ammo Also in 44 Mag. Well aren't they all???

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Sorry FooFoo.
I shoot 200-400 rounds in a week at 5.5 cents a pop (3 cents for the primer, a penny for the powder and a 1.5 cents for the lead).

They all go bang, shoot as straight as I do and is as safe as I make them.

I'd rather shoot 400 rounds for $30 than 20 rounds of Boutique ammo @ $1.50 a pop.

Well as far as the super duper whiz band ammo that some companies market I think its just a lot of hype. I see no reason to pay $1.50 a round for ammo. I feel that any SD ammo from the major manufacturers is going to perform well, I love to load my own for the range but for SD work I like factory ammo. When I find ammo I like I try to buy enough to check accuracy and function in my firearms and then thats what I keep them loaded with. I think some people buy into the hype that the boutique ammo will substitute for good marksmanship IMHO.

__________________
M&P 45, M&P9 Pro
M&P Shield 9

I've been reloading since the 80's and have steadily been improving. I have worries about buying someone else's re-loads. not everyone is as OCD as me. unfortunately for legal reasons I try very hard to only use storebought, and the same as the local leo's, for s/d or cc. granted an EVIL black talon bullet may be the same as the one in a Winchester lawman, except for the color, but it would come up in court and not in a good way. suppose George Zim had been using handloads or black talons or zombie max ammo. would the verdict have been different? I dunno but for sure the prosecution would have been all over it. since retiring I load boutique style using good components and go overboard on every possible phase of case prep. if you believe it makes a difference in your accuracy it likely will IMO.

Aside from the fact that there is absolutely no legal reason not to use reloads for SD, and here has never been any documented SD case where reloads came up in court, you should absolutely carry that in which you have the most confidence.

Maybe, maybe not. Did the ammo issue ever even come up in the trial? Since this is probably the most closely scrutinized "self-defense shooting" trial in many many years, I would think that if it was ever gonna come up in court it would have this time.

This stuff is FULL of foo-foo dust!

That is AWESOME!!!!!!

And EXTREME!!!!!

AND AWESOME!!!!!

and TACTICAL!

There's two major issues with handloads (or boutique/garage loaded) in a defensive shooting.

1. A prosecutor may take the opportunity to portray you as kin to the Unibomber if you do it yourself or a mall ninja/homicidal maniac if you bought it. This can be either a regional or local concern or if you have other factors at play like re-election or media generated buzz. Look at the Harold Fish case as an example-and he used major factory ammo.

2. Repeatability of gunshot residue patterns where it may be an issue. The factories are neutral third parties to the trial, their records/expertise is considered as impartial. I know of at least one case in my home state where there was a production change in factory ammo that wasn't caught by the state lab when doing testing (different lot numbers-careless of them) using exempler ammunition. The residue patterns didn't match and the guy was convicted. He got a new trial after the factory provided information to the effect that the lab made a gross error. Your records (or Bubbas) -if any-won't have that level of trust and may not be admissable. [You could, if you can afford it, get someone like HP White Laboratory to do defense comparisons and try to get that admitted. Figure about $2K for testing, maybe twice that for testimony, expenses, etc.-plus your attorneys fees.]

There's at least one regular here who's both a lawyer and a reloader and is comfortable using handloads. But: he both knows the courts in his area and is known to the criminal justice system. You may not have that level of professional trust built into the system.

Your choice.

BTW-over 20 years ago I knew of one boutique ammo maker who had a heck of a business, contracts, growing business, major magazine ads. He did, however, have a slight problem: a distinct disregard for pressure limitations with certain specific loads. He was driven out of business by lawsuits. Someone may claim magic powder blends that produce wonderous perfomance with 'safe' pressures. Without a certified lab test by someone like HP White Labs, believe it at your peril.

You do realize that by your own admission, all of your points are about factory ammunition (either major manufacturer, or small manufacturer like Buffalo Bore) and have absolutely nothing to do with any of this, right?

If any of your concerns had ever happened (in the history of ever) your statements might be factual. But you're dealing in a theory that has yet to be proven. In other words, stuff someone made up that keeps being repeated over and over.

Why, you say, would someone take the chance of putting themselves in that situation JUST IN CASE it ever does happen?

How many cases of self defense have gone to court? Thousands, I'd wager. No, make that tens of thousands. And not once has the use of hand loaded ammunition ever been an issue.

Not.

Once.

There is a case where a guy said his wife killed herself and he was convicted of her murder. His lawyer pointed out that since hand loads were used, there was no way to determine stippling. But that's it. Not a self defense case by any means. And the theory was an unsuccessful Hail Mary pass at that. Dude killed his wife. And was convicted.

Don't you think, with all the lawyers hanging out on gun forums and all the guys talking about this, that if it were a thing that could be used, it would have been by now? At least once? And that if it were, the armchair Internet detectives would have found evidence of it occurring? Even once?

But you don't want to chance being the first, and I get that. I am a proponent of live and let live. Use the ammunition you are most comfortable carrying. I will not tell you or anyone else what they "should" carry, in any way, shape, or form. And I certainly won't make stuff up trying to convince you that I am right.

I realize that the very act of self defense can land me in court and get me wrongfully convicted - or even if I am cleared, can cost me many thousands of dollars. That has happened countless times. And they didn't need any boogie-man hand load scary story to do it either.

But please don't spread the same old unfounded rumors as being factual reasons.

Because they're just that.

Rumors.

These are actual photographs submitted on this forum of ammunition purchased from the major manufacturers. Doesn't give me the highest degree of confidence in their ability to make ammunition that meets my standards. And I don't think my expectations are out-of-line either. "Well, they make millions of rounds. You have to expect some duds, now and then."

No - no I don't!

Golden Sabre:


Federal:


Winchester:

Bluejax, I'm not gonna claim to have every word of every shooting trial memorized like you. I hate to say always and never. I do recall reading articles in gun rags by guys like Massad Ayoob and other "experts" (take it for what it's worth) and very many agree that an evil name like black talon, python, zombie max and things like notches on your pistol grips, a skull and crossbones engraved on your gun, or a born to kill tattoo can all be used against you to smear your character in court. is it FACT OR FICTION? I don't really know. I do know I'm not willing to take the chance, when a box of storeboughts can solve the POTENTIAL/POSSIBLE problem. I do load some hornady xtp's for self defense (for an end of days, mass civil unrest, Katrina type situation) where I may not be able to buy or afford enough good quality stuff. when I load I have different "grades" of ammo. inexpensive bullets for high volume practice, better quality more expensive premium or match grade stuff for hunting, serious target/benchrest, or competition and self defense. I did enjoy your pics of the factory flubs. I know I've loaded some myself as bad if not worse also, it happens. that's why I look at/inspect the ammo before it goes in the gun. USUALLY/HOPEFULLY it's caught at the reloading bench.

Someone mentioned the Harold Fish case earlier. I went through and read the whole thing on the website set up for his defense. Interestingly, he was carrying a 10mm with factory JHPs, and the prosecutors lambasted him for carrying such a massively powerful weapon with ammunition designed only to kill. (Never mind the 10mm basically falls nicely in with heavy 357 Mags and moderate 41 Mags, and well behind the 44 Mag, 454 Casull, or 460 & 500 Mags.) This just goes to show that prosecutors will go to any lengths and try to pull anything out of their magic hats to go after you if they think you deserve it. His attorneys did a half-way job of countering the point also, and jurors pointed to the ammunition (JHP) as being a lynchpin in getting a conviction.

I knew a cop once who hand-loaded every round he carried on duty. He wanted to see the primer compound in every primer, see the powder charge in every case, etc.

I wonder what a prosecutor would say if I had to use handloads in self-defense, and my loads were specifically down-loaded to be less powerful? For example, I have and use a 44 Mag (Model 29, of course) for SD, and I load it with 225gr bullets at 800fps? And, of course when I'm deposed, I say: "Those 44 Magnum factory loads are too powerful, mean, and viscious! I just wanted to stop the attack, not maim or kill anyone, so I made up these weak loads. I'm no Dirty Harry!"

Oh, and as to the original question about boutique ammo: the difference between my handloads and "factory" ammo was that for a couple years I had liability insurance, a 06FFL, and a business license. Still use the same press, dies, bullets, and powder as back then... Nowadays any of us could do the same, though there is now an additional tax/license involved...

"Safe for Humans and other Living Things"??

Attorneys will go after you whether you deserve it or not.

I'm down to about 6k small pistol/rifle primers, 5 pounds of Unique (good for another 7000 rounds), and a nearly unlimited supply of lead at $0.88/pound (free lead is getting to be tough to find). 3 hours casting session on Saturday (including setup and tear down/clean up) yielded me 1062 boolits:


15 minutes of loading will get 100 rounds completed. Do this a few nights a week and you have lots of lead to practice with. Do this enough times and your gun will be an extension to your hand so that if you need to shoot said "FooFoo" bullets in a life-or-death situation, you won't be jerking the trigger or panicking if you have a misfeed.

One comment I recall from my Constitutional Law professor: "Don't be a test case."

The Virginia case I mentioned is a matter of court record. As is the Fish case details noted by a later poster. Those aren't rumors, they are actual court cases. And yes, there is in fact a related point for my cited point: if the residue patterns (in a close range shooting) don't match the patterns the labs get with exempler ammo, you have a problem. It's not that you may not be able to explain the issue, but it's an issue you don't need and may cost you dearly. Too damn many people actually believe the stuff they see on CSI.

There are other cases.

Also recall the Duke Lacrosse Team "rape" case. The prosecutor got disbarred for what he did, but it serves as an illustration of what can happen. Decades ago, I did what's now referred to as litigation support. Those attorneys (in major law firms) were looking for anything at all they might be able to turn to advantage.

As I noted, your choice.

Glad the Duke atty got disbarred, but he was payed for doing a job. the lying piece of trash that started the whole thing should have had to serve the same sentence the kids she falsely accused would have gotten, and payed the court costs. no such thing as prosecuting for perjury anymore? Travons "girlfriend" comes to mind.