I have some 45 AR Remington Brass. Have never loaded this before and attempted to reload it for the first time with 230 Grain .451 Hornady XTP. "Loose as a goose" with a crimp. After searching the Forum I got 240 Grain Hornady .452 XTP MAG projectiles and some 300 Grain .452 of the Hornady XTP MAG. Am looking for a recipe with TightGroup. powder.
Does any one have a good load for these two projectiles? Cannot find much reloading reference on 45 AR. The weapon is a 325NG.

gatekeeper,

I don't load with TightGroup, so this may not be much help to you. But for my 325NG my favorite range load is my 225 grain home cast over 4.5 grains of Red Dot. It is accurate and has a little snap to it. I have never shot it over the chrono though.

My 325NG loves that load.

Cheers,

Rick

"‘Loose as a goose’ with a crimp.” = Your expander plug’s diameter is too large. Bullets should be held tight with no crimp. While using very fine black sand paper, maybe 320 then 400 grit, Spin it in a drill motor.

I shortened a RCBS .45 Colt seater die for roll crimping SWCs that were designed for revolvers. That’s a nice option. My favorite is the old Saeco 240 gr SWC that stayed true to Elmer Keith’s design.

You can use all the .45 ACP loads in reloading manuals in .45 Auto Rim. The only exception I can think of would be down loading for the non heat treated cylinders of converted .455 British 1st and 2nd model N frames. I’m sorry but I have not tried TiteGroup.

Load data is the same as for a 45 ACP.

Hornady manual devotes a whole 1/2 page to it.

The only data they give is for the 185 gr Xtp, Actually the case mouth is .472 and the 45 ACP is .473

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Still Running Against the Wind

That "loose as a goose" description is something I've heard before from those new to reloading, so frequently that it's rather obvious it's an easy mistake to make.

What you are doing wrong is expanding the case too deeply. A lot of manuals and die manufacturers assume that the person using their tools has a fair about of experience. As a result a lot of newbies make the mistake of using the expander to expand the case for the full depth of the bullet. To be clear and specific, than is NOT the purpose of the exanding die. The purpose of the expander die is to place a very small and SHORT flare on the very end of the case so that a bullet will start easily in the case. In general you want the largest measured diameter to be only 0.005 to 0.007 inch larger than the diameter of the case immediately after it's been sized. Set up properly and that flare at the end of the case will only be about 1/16 inch long. In addition when you place a bullet in the flared case it will sit mostly straight and a bit of firm pressure will cause the bullet to "cap" the case firmly enough that you can pick up the case with just the bullet. So step one is to set up your expanding die correctly.

Step two is bullet selection. Those 240 and 300 grain bullets you just acquired are intended for use with the 45 Long Colt, NOT the 45 Autorim. If you load in the light to moderate range you can probably safely use the 240 grain bullets but you will want to load them to a overall length at least 0.03 inch longer than that recommended for the 230 grain XTP. I would consider the 300 grain bullets you have as UNSAFE in the 45 Autorim, you just don't have enough volume in the shorter Autorim case for a 45 caliber bullet this heavy. If you attempt to use these bullets there is a very real chance that you could BLOW UP YOUR GUN.

As for loading data, as Rule3 noted it is the same as that for the 45 ACP. Because the 45 Autorim is basically a 45 ACP case with a rim added to it for use without moon clips in a 45 caliber revolver. Personally, I would set those 240 grain bullets aside and go back to loading with the 230 grain XTP. I would also forget about using Titegroup for this load, it's just not a good choice for this application. This means that you'll probably have to do a bit of shopping for a different powder. One powder option that is somewhat easy to find in my area is Accurate #5 and it is highly suited to the use of a 230 grain bullet in the 45 ACP. Other options are Reliant Silhouette, v-N350, Power Pistol, V-N340, and Longshot.

Loaded for the .45 AR many years back for use in a 25-2 and a 4" 625. I quickly found that Remington AR brass was garbage. Neck tension all over the place, and quite a few neck splits by the 3rd or 4th load.

StarLine makes some great Auto rim brass...what I would suggest strongly over the RP stuff.

If I can find my crono/load data I'll post a few loads for you. I used Herco, Unique and 2400. As well as nothing but CAST bullets.
NO experience with jacketed slugs.

Another point I would mention, is why in the world would you want a 300 grain bullet out of a alloy Night Guard?

Read Scooters reply above several times.!

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Still Running Against the Wind

1. No Expansion used, cases come straight out of the Resizing Die.

2. Newbie? If you consider reloading 40+ years Newbie, guilty.
Never had this issue with any other cartridge. Never loaded this cartridge before till now.

3. Load 45 ACP all the time with no issues, get constant results out of the TIGHTGROUP.

4. Must be poor brass, I'll use the XTP Slugs for my sabots in my T/C 50 cal. muzzle loader.

5. Reeds use to make a 300 grain MAN STOPPER, sure to do the job. Cannot find them anymore.

The .452" 250gr XTP actually seats slightly shallower than their .451" 230 XTP (.365" vs .370"). Sierra's .452" 240gr JHC actually seats even shallower at .348". I've used all of these in S-L AR cases using Unique & Power Pistol in my 325NG. S-L ARs are strong & can be loaded to 45 Super level. I've never used the 240 XTP-Mag & have no data on it.

The Hornady .452" 300gr XTP-Mag does seat a lot deeper at .435". The .452" 300gr XTP has two cannelures & the rear one seats to .370", neither of which I've used in AR cases. I have used the .452" 225 FTX which seats deep at .390", but looks awesome.

Hornady FTX bullets in 500Mag & 45 Auto Rim

What is the case wall thickness on the AR vs ACP?

This may answer your problem.

Some of the answers stating you are over expanding the case are probably people giving their experience with other cases and not familiar with Remington 45AR brass.

I tried every resizing die on the market when trying to work up loads with jacketed bullets. None of the ones I tried (RCBS, Dillon, Lee, Redding and Lyman) would size the brass down enough to provide any real case tension on the bullet. Even without using the expander.

As at least on poster stated Starline brass solves this issue.

I wouldn't call the Remington brass junk, just thin walled. It works great with Cast bullets of .452 diameter or greater.

If you don't load Cast or just want one brass for both type of bullets Starline is the way to go.

Problem is not the bullet but the brass. RP brass is very thin. In 45acp or 45AR, it is not likely to hold a proper sized 0.451" jacketed bullet. SO I reserve my RP brass for larger 0.452" lead bullets & everything runs fine.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I have been reloading Remington .45 AR since 1975 with Pacific Durachrome and RCBS .45 ACP carbide resizers. I have no recollection of light bullet tension before crimping. I’m pretty sure I loaded some jacketed bullets way back when, but I couldn’t swear to it. IMO jacketed bullets are a waste of money in .45 ACP & AR.

I apologize for my prior reply presuming the OP’s expander is too large below its belling flare. It did not occur to me that his resizing die might be to large, but that is my diagnosis after reading later replies. There are manufacturing tolerances in most everything. Resizing dies vary. As an example my 9 mm carbide resizers vary enough that my Durachrome would adequately resize a few lots or brands of brass but my RCBS would not.

Regardless of the age of his dies, assuming the manufacturer of the OP’s die set is still in business, I would bet a dollar that if he returns his resizer they will replace it for free. Over the years RCBS replaced three of my rifle FL resizers because they weren’t small enough. After initial phone contact I sent in cases fired in my chambers along with the resizers. Lyman and Lee have also gone beyond their printed warranties to keep me happy with their tools.

The poster who reported splitting Remington AR case necks in a few reloadings may have oversize chambers or he’s over belling, or a combination of the two. I’ve had long case life and good bullet tension with R-P .45 AR brass. However, none of my AR brass is new. It may all be 20 plus years old, but I doubt it’s changed that much. I do have a non-S&W .44 magnum that splits brass bad due to its over size chambers. After a warranty return the revolver’s manufacturer claimed the chambers were within their tolerances, but they certainly are larger diameter than any of my S&Ws. If a brand of thicker walled brass stopped the case splitting I’d only use that brass in the offending revolver.

Scooter123,
In my experience the case expanding portion below the belling flare does expand brass for the whole seating depth. With most of my pistol dies if the belling flare is pushed in too far the excessive bell is obvious. The neck would split, the case would collapse or the flare would prevent the case entering the seating die before bullet pull tension was lost. You may have expander plugs similar to Lyman’s M dies but have you actually seen a beginner ram one in so far that all bullet pull tension was lost?

As others have posted, Rem 45 (acp and 45ar) is thin. Not only thin, less ductile than others. Lee makes an undersize die for 45 acp, that sizes the brass down further. Used in conjunction with a bell plug that doesn't expand the case mouth, but only bells it, can work. Over tightening the crimp won't work.

As also stated, best bet is starline brass. Am also of belief the Rem 45 ar case has more volume than the 45 acp case.

I spent time last weekend loading RMR 230 gn plated bullets into 45ACP and 200 of those cases were once fired Remington cases. While the neck tension was a bit lighter than Federal or Speer cases in my lot it was not anywhere near "loose as a goose". In fact the Remington cases provide enough tension that they can be chambered in my SR1911 a total of 8 times before any setback can be measured.

Yeah, I do test for that using an unprimed and dry casing. It allows me to determine if I have enough taper crimp (0.002~0.003) and if the overall length chosen creates any immediate feed issues.

I also loaded up 2 boxes of the Hornady 185 grain XTP's over 7.9 grains of Unique. However in my loading I was using Federal Small Pistol cases because I'm starting to conserve my LP primers. The force required to press the XTP's into the cases was basically identical to that required when loading the RMR plated bullets earlier.

So, Gatekeeper, I can only conclude that you have a worn out sizing die. I'm using a RCBS carbid die set for my 45 ACP and have NEVER had and problems with "loose" bullets. If you've been reloading for 40+ years it's well within reason that your sizing die needs to be replaced.

K22fan, yeah I have seen newbies run the pin for the expand die it to the full depth of the bullet, nobody told him that wasn't how this die was used. It's called the expand die and he assumed that meant it was to expand the case for the bullet. As I've learned some people will do the oddest things with a tool simply because they weren't specifically told NOT to do that.

I have a PDF copy of Brian pierces hand loader article on reloading the 45 AR if anyone is interested shoot me a pm with your email and I'll send a copy.
Great read.
Light bullets up to 280 grain cast.

Like said above, the load data for the 45 AR is the same as the load data for the 45 ACP. That is the easy part! lol

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I've never had any Rem 45AR cases to compare, but Starline's are the same.

45ACP / 45 Super / 45AR Case Capacities
I came up with the following: 45ACP @ 27.3 grs., 45AR @ 27.4grs., & 45 Super @ 26.8grs. So the ACP & AR are essentially the same & the Super case has about 0.5grs., or 2% less capacity.

ACP, AR and super are pretty much the same dimensions. Super supposedly having a denser brass. 460 rowland is a touch longer to prevent chambering in a standard ACP action and the case web is about 25% thicker and mouths are about .002" thicker with the same dense brass as super. Though the rowland bullets are seated to same oal as the ACP meaning basically the same capacity (minus difference is web and wall thickness)

I have to join the "it's the same as ACP" club.

I've loaded a lot of AR over the years and the only thing I change is the shellplate. My most recent batch was a few hundred rounds using RP CASES with 4.1 Bullseye under 230 RNL. Plenty of case neck tension. I use an ancient RCBS carbide set with a newer taper crimp seater/crimper. No crimp.

The only thing I change is the shellplate.

HOT TIP:
Try setting up for ACP. Load a few rounds that met your specs. Sneak in an AR shellplate. Load. See if the results aren't the same.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

A good trick to try if you run into a bunch of thin brass, either ACP or AR, that won't size down enough to get sufficient bullet pull (and you hate the thought of discarding) is to size with a .308 Win FL sizer die, then expand normally. I imagine a sizer for any of other .308 family of cartridges (.243, 7-08, .260) would work, too, just haven't tried them.

I have also put up identical loads in 45acp brass & AR brass. The results in my M625 are almost identical. The beneif of the 45AR for me, I can use a 250grLSWCHP, moon clips or speed loader. I like that.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

gatekeeper:

I've loaded only a few hundred Rem AR cases with cast 230 RN and standard recipes for ACP.

They've worked very well for me with no issues. Some day I'll get the time to get back to doing it again.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

Aphelion,
Just tried the 308 WIN Sizer trick, loaded a 45 AR with a 200 grain .451 XTP. That seemed to eliminate the "loose" issue I was having. Thanks much for your insight.

Thanks to everyone who replied to my question.

The 45 ACP/AR RCBS carbide die set I have is relatively new (only 200 rounds of 45 ACP).

Send the resizer back to RCBS. There’s no question they’ll replace a relatively new one for free. Your resizer should at least work with brass and bullets from the four largest manufactures.

On the topic of creative die substitutions, .380s can be resized with a .223 FL resizer, belled with a 9mm expander then seated without crimp with a 9mm seater. I taper crimped them with something like the bottom of the .223 resizer, but I forget exactly. 20 to 25 years ago I got a .380 AMT Back UP from a seller who wouldn’t break up two guns he had advertised for one price. I had no use for the AMT but wanted to fire it before trading it. The AMT stunk but the .380 cases were kind of cute. They look like baby .45 ACPs.

Gatekeeper, on the off chance that your new RCBS sizing die was made incorrectly try measuring a freshly sized casing. I just pulled five R-P 45 ACP cases out of my stash that I sized and primed last weekend and every single one measured at 0.467 inch. If your sizing die is producing a diameter too much larger than this I would suggest that you contact RCBS about their replacing your die. While it probably doesn't happen very often it is possible that you received a die that wasn't quite perfect. If so you'll want to get that sorted out as quickly as possible. Because I'm pretty certain using that 308 die for sizing isn't exactly fast and it's probably a steel die, which means you should be using lube on every single case.

The 240 is about as heavy as I would go in the 45 acp/ar. I have loaded a few boxes of AutoRim with the Sierra Sportsmaster 240 JHP.FP with 6.3gr Herco, 1.21"oal for 800fps out of a 625 and as high as 7.4gr for 970fps from 45 acp out of a XD and Springfield 1911. I was very pleased with how well they expanded and mushroomed.
Like the others said, I too wouldn't recommend using a fast powder like tightgroup.

FWIW, the original.45AR was a balloon-head case and thus held more powder.

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and what his trumpet saith

Which explains how Elmer Keith and others were able to use those hot loads in the old 1917 revolvers.

Loaded in modern brass they are very hot indeed. Too hot.

Glad it worked for you. I've never seen it fail.

Modern 625s can be reamed for 460 which operates at about 40k psi.
I bet the old guns could handle more than standard acp loads. Probably +p but no where near the 460 loads of course or even 45 super.

Man I love wheel guns.

I did find one piece of baloon head brass in my 300 or so rounds but I thought that if that stuff were loaded hotter it would fail?

Balloon head brass will fail at a lower pressure than solid head. Since .45 AR pressures don’t exceed the strength of balloon head cases in theory balloon head .45 ARs could burn slightly more powder while producing the same pressure as solid head resulting in slightly higher velocity. However with an old 1917 you’d be on your own guessing just how many additional flakes of modern powder you could add. Over loading a Black Hawk I suspect balloon head cases would fail before the cylinder.

The idea that balloon head brass can be loaded hotter mainly arose because balloon head .45Colts held more black powder than solid head .45 Colts. Using black powder excessive pressure is not an issue. This has been greatly exaggerated in print. IIRC from loading both with FFFg the difference was only about 2 grains.

Shifting from theory to reality, balloon head cases are all very old and brass age hardens making cases more likely to split. Besides, balloon head cases are collectors’ items.

I use my 625s in a variety of club matches.
As some stages require loading fewer than 6, I went to AR cases, as the moon clips are a pain with > 6 rounds loaded.
Purchased several 100 R-P from Midway.
Stiffest (if you can call it that) is a 255 LSWC over 5.0 Green Dot. This chronos at 812 FPS. Use it for bowling pin matches and have won the last 3 since going to that load. Slams the pins without beating up me or the gun.
Everything else is 185 or 200 LSWCs. At my level of skill I can't say which (if either) is better.
4-5 reloadings on some of these cases now with no problems.
Count me in the "only difference is the shellholder" club.
If/when the R-P cases fail, I'll go to StarLine if they're available then.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

I have been handloading the .45 Autorim for nearly 40 years. All of it with R-P brass, some of which is still in service.

One of my very first recipies was 5.0 grains of Bullseye under a Lee 452-200-RF sized to .452". It shoots so well in such a broad range of modern and ancient revolvers that I haven't strayed from it.

One would think that a solid crimp would solve your "looseness" issue.

Drew

I have been loading .45 AR for at least 10 years. I'm using R-P brass, 230 grain RMR hardball over 4.2 grains of Clays. I use the exact same load for the .45ACP, and the only change is the shell plate on my Dillon 550B. (and the brass, obviously - haven't had any success loading 45 AR brass into a 1911).

Brian Pearce did a thorough article a few years ago on loading the .45 AR in Handloader Issue 254. Now he only mentions Titegroup for one 200 gr. load, and no info on bullets over 280 gr. but it's a good read nonetheless. (He lists Power Pistol, N350, 2400 Unique and Univ. Clays for the 280 gr. RCBS cast.)

Although Wolfe Publications doesn't mention it on their website, you can get any back issue as a digital download. Give 'em a ring:

Kendra Newell
Circulation Manager
Wolfe Publishing Company
1.800.899.7810 Ext. 109
[email protected]

Stuart

did everyone that pmed me receive the copy of the articles? just wanted to make sure i didn't miss anyone.

Oops.... sorry, Michael, I missed your post on that I was about to offer to send a .pdf of that article to those that wanted it as well.

Stuart
Dept. of Redundancy Dept.

No prob Stuart.
Thanks for offering too. It's great to see everyone sharing info. 45ar is a great cartridge with not enough info on it.