How NOT to reload...Kaboom!

mstuhr · #51 11-24-2013, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C17

The 460 Rowland requires a ported barrel or a compensator,

Howdy,
The extra weight of the comp will help keep the pistol in battery longer allowing pressures to drop some before unlocking.
I had a heavy, five chamber Gann comp and 6" bbl on my .45. Also, along with the heavy main and recoil springs you can put a flat bottom firing pin stop/ retainer to keep it locked up a little longer.
With the hot .45's I found the magnum pistol primers to be the weak spot and ended up with cut down .308 and mag rifle primers.
I'm still not sure if it was the load or the old Argentine slide or the combo of the two that made it let go. It was something to see before it let go and worked well for sometime.
You might look into the flat bottom firing pin stop when using the Roland on your Sig. All the little things add up.
Thanks
Mike

Paul5388 · #52 11-24-2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

And who would ream a barrel designed for a 21,000 psi round to one that generates so much more pressure?

I have already mentioned the Rowland is loaded to 40,000 CUP, which is 6,000 cup less than an original .357 Mag. SAAMI now says that .357 pressure is 35,000 psi, which would make the .460 more like 29,000-30,000 psi (if there is any reasonable way to compare the two measurements). It seems like I remember the .45 Super is 28,000 psi and it only takes spring changes to shoot in a 1911 and no changes for a M625.

DR505 · #53 11-24-2013, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul5388

I have already mentioned the Rowland is loaded to 40,000 CUP, which is 6,000 cup less than an original .357 Mag. SAAMI now says that .357 pressure is 35,000 psi, which would make the .460 more like 29,000-30,000 psi (if there is any reasonable way to compare the two measurements). It seems like I remember the .45 Super is 28,000 psi and it only takes spring changes to shoot in a 1911 and no changes for a M625.

From the .460 Rowland page:

Quote:

Q: I am interested in the 460 Rowland for a Glock. I see it pictured on your home page but no other information is available. I am a gunsmith and have the ability to build a .460 Glock, but would like the benefit of your experience. Any help is appreciated.
—Ashley

A: We would NEVER (!) rechamber a Glock barrel, but would recommend a properly heat treated aftermarket barrel with .020 to .040 freebore just before the rifling starts to lower initial pressures. .460 Rowland FAQ

Gun 4 Fun · #54 11-24-2013, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul5388

I have already mentioned the Rowland is loaded to 40,000 CUP, which is 6,000 cup less than an original .357 Mag. SAAMI now says that .357 pressure is 35,000 psi, which would make the .460 more like 29,000-30,000 psi (if there is any reasonable way to compare the two measurements). It seems like I remember the .45 Super is 28,000 psi and it only takes spring changes to shoot in a 1911 and no changes for a M625.

According to Wiki, which may not always be dead accurate, but in this case they seem to have their facts down correctly, the 460 Rowland runs at 40K PSI-

.460 Rowland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul5388 · #55 11-24-2013, 04:17 PM

I can't seem to relocate the pressure numbers I quoted, so just consider them to be an old man's dreaming. What I did find are Glock conversions to .460 Rowland! Is the 460 available for a Glock? | .460 Rowland

D Rock · #56 11-24-2013, 04:52 PM

Here's a short video of a guy shooting a .460 magazine thru a Glock 30.
.460 Rowland - YouTube

I get a kick out of the fact that at about the 8th round he starts looking at the pistol. I think he's hoping he's done!

Dave

C17 · #57 11-24-2013, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Rock

Here's a short video of a guy shooting a .460 magazine thru a Glock 30.
.460 Rowland - YouTube

I get a kick out of the fact that at about the 8th round he starts looking at the pistol. I think he's hoping he's done!

Dave

Now thats funny. 1911 conversions shoot just like a 45. I regularly shoot 100-200 rounds per range session with mine.

People who ask me why I buy Sig Sauer guns probably never bought one

arjay · #58 11-24-2013, 06:57 PM

So with a compensator and heavier spring the recoil feels the same as ball? Ive toyed with getting this conversion for years.

RV4driver · #59 11-24-2013, 08:01 PM

I maintain that if you need to do this to float your boat, you've picked the wrong gun. Case in point, check out the video of the guys shooting the 60 caliber Nitro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=1yzI0AIpUUA

C17 · #60 11-24-2013, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arjay

So with a compensator and heavier spring the recoil feels the same as ball? Ive toyed with getting this conversion for years.

Yes. Exactly. The only noticable difference is the report is louder. The bullet drop at 100 yards is nill. It is an amazing round.

People who ask me why I buy Sig Sauer guns probably never bought one

Smithsrevenge · #61 11-24-2013, 10:18 PM

What I want to know. How do his hands look. OUCH!. I thought my Kaboom was bad, hell the slide never blew, just the barrel and frame.......thats a big explosion right there :/

Gun 4 Fun · #62 11-24-2013, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smithsrevenge

What I want to know. How do his hands look. OUCH!. I thought my Kaboom was bad, hell the slide never blew, just the barrel and frame.......thats a big explosion right there :/

The gun didn't blow. The recoil was just too much for him to hold onto. That video has been on the net for quite some time now, and gets talked about on most gun boards.

mikld · #63 11-25-2013, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren Sear

You are making the very common error of applying rifle loading procedures to handguns. Read your manuals again.

I will add that if you get sticky extraction from a bolt action rifle, you are way over pressure (over 65,000 psi?). If you are getting it in a handgun, those loads are flat out hazardous. In this case, the shooter in the OP was shooting the loads in a semi-auto pistol, so he had no way to determine what the extraction was like.

Case head expansion only applies to new cases, and only comes into play, again, at rifle pressures. If you are getting those indications in a pistol or revolver, you are WAY over pressure.

"Reading primers"? Don't even get me started!

When I first started re-loading I wrecked a brand new Model 19. I followed the data on the old (and foolishly high) Speer manual, all while watching carefully for "signs of pressure", as advised in the manual. By the time I noticed them, the forcing cone on my gun was split and the cylinder bulged.

There is no reliable, objective method to determine pressure for the typical handgun re-loader, and it chaps my --- to see the constant admonitions to "watch for pressure signs" in regard to pistols and revolvers. There are no indications until you are way over the line.

Get your data from a reliable source and adhere to it closely, including overall cartridge length. Get a chronograph, and if you are getting higher speeds than factory ammo, you are over pressure.

OK, so all you new reloaders out there, don't bother to inspect your fired reloads. Don't bother with watching for dangerous pressures, just keep loading higher until you get a chunk of cylinder in your face!

I have been reloading revolvers since 1969 and use head expansion as a determining factor to high pressures. I also pay attention to how the cases extract from my cylinders. I have 8 revolvers in which some have run near max. to a hair over max. loads (.357 Magnum and .44 Magnum) so I guess all my load testing/inspection has been wrong! Poor me, jes an ignernt loder dat cant figger pressures...

Bearstopper · #64 11-26-2013, 12:19 AM

That is an absurd amount of Unique more than I would use in a 44 magnum load! Better off with a slower powder to achieve his desired velocity.

Nevada Ed · #65 11-26-2013, 01:29 AM

60 Nitro....

Saw that coming before he even squeezed the trigger !!

He should never shot his wife's gun !!

Smithsrevenge · #66 11-26-2013, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun 4 Fun

The gun didn't blow. The recoil was just too much for him to hold onto. That video has been on the net for quite some time now, and gets talked about on most gun boards.

I meant the gun from the Ops photo, not the video.

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk

DR505 · #67 11-26-2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smithsrevenge

What I want to know. How do his hands look. OUCH!. I thought my Kaboom was bad, hell the slide never blew, just the barrel and frame.......thats a big explosion right there :/

He actually didn't get too badly hurt...slight cut on trigger finger, and hand that felt like it was hit with a baseball bat.

Warren Sear · #68 11-26-2013, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikld

... Poor me, jes an ignernt loder dat cant figger pressures...

I agree with you there, Festus.

fredj338 · #69 11-27-2013, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearstopper

That is an absurd amount of Unique more than I would use in a 44 magnum load! Better off with a slower powder to achieve his desired velocity.

This is a very good point & observations like this are how wildcaters start to develope handloads. Using a larger case w/ smaller bore & heavier bullet is not a direct comparison, but it should have given pause to the guy just cramming 13gr into a 45acp case. Unique compresses well in certain loads, like 9mm, but then it's running almost 100% higher pressures.

Steelhead · #70 11-28-2013, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DR505

A friend passed this one along...his acquaintance was working up a .460 Rowland load using Unique. He did not have a single published load with this powder, so went on his own. The frame and slide are from a Glock 21 with a .460 Rowland conversion. Here is what 13 grains of Unique can do:

I ran the load through my Quickload software, but used .45 ACP as there is no Rowland data in this program. In a .45 ACP case with a 230 grain FMJ, 13 grains of Unique generate over 111,000 PSI! Now the Rowland case is 1/16th inch longer and dimensionally different, but not that different.

Word to the wise...use published loads.

impressive

Yea, load up an almost rifle pressure case with no data.
I'm wondering what he was getting speed wise before it blew?

Wireman02 · #71 12-09-2013, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul5388

Clark Custom Guns does the conversions and also has some loading data, but none with Unique! 460 Rowland Reloading Data Chart Information

The max pressure is 40,000 cup, but that isn't SAAMI pressure.

so looking at the chart it says 12 gns of hodgdon longshot which is 105 on the burn rate chart.

And he loads 13 gns unique which is 59 on the burn rate chart.

Where is this even close to a comparable powder?

Hans Gruber · #72 10-08-2014, 12:04 AM

Well, an experienced reloader would/should already know that Unique is not the proper choice for pushing high pressure loads.
A point of note, the .460 Rowland INTERNAL volume is almost identical to that of the .45 ACP save for slight internal dimensional differences due to Rowland vs ACP brass. One could therefore using published ACP load data to "start" which it appears this guy did, only he started about a 1-1.5 grains above most published data for the bullet weight and went of from there.
The question that begs to be answered is what did his loads do at 9, 10, 11, and 12 grains?

13 grains of Unique packs pretty tightly into an ACP case with a 230 grain bullet squashing it down, which means his loading methodology had moved well beyond the realm of "predictability." I cannot imagine anyone "experienced" with reloading - especially the loading of small-capacity, high-pressure handgun rounds, pushing a powder like Unique that high, in that application...but if all is as stated, he did, and he paid the price. Hopefully he learned that loading ammunition is by no means a "casual" endeavor where one simply tosses the ingredients into a mixture and out comes perfectly made ammo everytime.

I've been loading/reloading ammo for 40 years and I STILL obsess about all the details even for putting together garden variety loads.

MJFlores · #73 10-08-2014, 12:37 AM

I'm surprised he could seat a bullet over 13 grains of unique in that case.

GLOCK460 · #74 01-23-2015, 12:49 PM

With the cost of ammo going through the roof the reloading community has grown by leaps and bounds. Unfortunately there's no requirements to prove you're not an idiot or at least understand the basics of powder selection and why. I own 2 45s that have been converted to 460 Rowland and have put well over 5000 of my reloads downrange. My Glock 21 is the best of the two as far as FTF or ejection problems. My Colt Range Officer is a bit more picky about COAL but both are fine weapons. A single email to Johnny Ray on his website would have saved this poor amateur's Glock, Pride and possibly his hand. I've been reloading since 1975 and can't remember any load for any caliber that called for 13 grains of Unique. BTW the Glock 21 is Johnny Ray Roland's preferred Firearm to convert.

My guess is the idiot that did this bought piece meal parts from Lone Wolf and assembled it. If you buy the Kits from Clark Custom or Johnny Ray they both take good care of their customers and will answer your questions in less than a day.

Twoboxer · #75 01-23-2015, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cprher

All very interesting, but how many of you are really more interested in what the velocity of the bullet was?

. . . and the direction of flight, too

Engineer1911 · #76 01-26-2015, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD

So this it actually 3rd hand information? Can it be verified because I'm thinking 111,000 PSI would do a lot more damage to any handgun than we see there.

Once the weakest link fails, the chamber pressure drops to zero. The new slide may not function on the old frame.

The slide's kinetic energy could give rather brisk muzzle flip.

dla · #77 01-27-2015, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DR505

Mind you, in a .460 Rowland the pressure would be different as the case dimensions are different, but not by a huge margin. The pressure would be less than in a .45 ACP case, but I can't imagine it would be tremendously different...even at 50% of this PSI it would be too hot.

Dropping to 12 grains the pressure drops to 86,000 psi. (again, .45 ACP case)

I've got the forwarded e-mail from the original experimenter, so third hand yes, but original info. I also wonder if his metering was off...a 1 grain difference is ~25,000 psi at that level (according to Quickload) in a .45 ACP. Quite a difference there.

Same case cpacity. Same pressure.

DR505 · #78 01-31-2015, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dla

Same case cpacity. Same pressure.

Good to know...I've never even seen .460 Rowland brass.

FloridaFlier · #79 01-31-2015, 10:55 PM

I used to fly jets. Now retired, I recall a wise flight safety saying. "Learn from others mistakes, you won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
Good original post. We should all learn something and move on.

Seaark1660 · #80 02-01-2015, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearstopper

That is an absurd amount of Unique more than I would use in a 44 magnum load! Better off with a slower powder to achieve his desired velocity.

I run 10 grains of Unique in my 44 Mag reloads. I couldn't agree more.

shil · #81 02-01-2015, 11:16 AM

Warren Sear, they can be tough to interpret at times. Flattened, cratered primers are not necessarily a danger flag alone but would make me question why and at least work up the load with a different primer. Sticky extraction in a revolver comes to mind. Empties flying for twelve feet out of a semi-auto might give me pause. Some handloaders measure case head expansion.

shil · #82 02-01-2015, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaark1660

I run 10 grains of Unique in my 44 Mag reloads. I couldn't agree more.

I tried 10 grains Unique with a .431 Keith 250 grainer in my 29-2; .431 because the gun has .432 chamber throats. Sticky extraction! Scratch that load! What are you shooting, if I may ask?

Revoman · #83 02-01-2015, 11:28 AM

I guessing the guy who shot that will need to be cured of flinching in the near future with .22's.

Collo Rosso · #84 02-01-2015, 02:23 PM

Reminds me of my drag racing days. One time a couple of us were staring at a couple pieces of a Kawi's crank lying on the ground. Problem was the rest of the motorcycle was 1320 feet down the track. To quote the owner "before we find out how much is enough, first we must find out how much is to much".