Hi Fellows,

I'm more of a lurker here, then a poster. I have reloaded ammo for over 40 years. I have my lead level checked about every two years. To be safe. I do shoot at a indoor range about 1/2 the time.

This last lead check was high. I had it redone at a second lab, it was even higher! Two weeks between checks!

Nothing has changes in my shooting or reloading, except my use of Russian primes as they are cheaper. The Dr. & I are at a loss at this time as where the lead is getting in to my system.

NOTE: I'm not stating that Russian primers are the problem, it's the only thing I can put my finger (at this time) that "MIGHT" be a factor.

I do all my case prep outside & use dryer sheets to catch any dust. I toss all spent primers at the end of a reloading session.
The kicker is, do to a major operation on my wife & her slow recovery.
I have been doing much less shooting & reloading.
If any of you have had a problem with lead, PLEASE let me know so I can figure out what is going on.

Thanks for any help,
Boolit Bub

Well I'm sorry about the high lead levels, but... Lead Styphnate... is lead styphnate. It's high in lead regardless of origin and that all gets converted into very fine particulate and vapors when fired. I'd be looking into ventilation of the range or lack of proper ventilation, it's usually one of the big sources.

The other big source is the tumbler dust. Where do you tumble you brass at? Indoors? Dryer sheets are not sufficient to contain lead contaminated dust. I tumble outdoors now, last thing I want is dust accumulating over time. A little here and a littler there doesn't seem like much, but add it up over years and it becomes a lot.

If you can get a lead test kit check some surfaces around where you keep your tumbler. I also wear nitrile gloves anytime I do anything reloading related, keeps the junk off my paws.

I wouldn't go back to that range.

I shot a lot indoors and found my lead levels were high. I discontinued shooting at the indoor range and the lead levels have backed down to respectable levels.

you shoot and reload less, but your lead levels are higher .....
perhaps the exposure issue has nothing to do with guns at all

__________________
it just needs more voltage

I've reloaded for 40 years and shot outdoors only for even longer. I had my lead levels drawn for the first time a couple of years ago. I was told my levels were less than those of non-shooter in major cities. Lead levels are not always connected with the shooting sports.

I wouldn't be surprised. I don't trust any of that Eastern Block export stuff.

I bought some Russian 9MM that was so full of God-Knows-What that a magnet picked it clean out of the box. Not by the brass case, by the tip of the supposedly lead projectile.

Lead core, bimetal jacket (copper-plated mild steel).

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Pisgah

If you take a look at the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) for Tula vs Remington vs CCI vs Winchester Primers the Lead Styphnate amounts by percentage are very similar (~25%) for all except the Winchester which lists it at ~5%. These are for the standard primers NOT the lead free. These MSDS sheets are required to be accessible by law on each component manufacturers web site.
I would suspect the range before the primer brand but as said above it could just as easily be NON shooting related. Water supply, new factory near by, local produce or meat.
Good Luck
Chip King

Tula Primer's Lead Styphnate levels are 25-46%. Lead nitrate levels are 35-56% according to the MSDS provided by the Texas distributer.

http://tulammousa.com/wp-content/upl..._9_15_2011.pdf

it's colder in air ventilation system where you shoot is off

Hi Fellows,

Thanks for the feed back. It gives me some ideas of were to look for my problem!

Blue Oval Bandit, would you have any idea were to get a lead test kit?

Be safe out there,
Boolit Bub

Here's some that 3m makes.

http://leadcheck.com/

Follow the link on where to buy. I'd give more places but I'm on the move and out of the house.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

HiSir,

Did not know they were for sale at local stores. I'll pick up some tomorrow.
The more I think about it.
I only shoot lead in my 38 /357revolvers & my 45acp autos. I never think to put rubber gloves, when I clean my firearms
I'm betting my reloading table is going to give me some answers into this problem.

Thanks for your help,
BB

BB: Is your level > 45 mcg/dl ? Is this the first time it has ever been high? Using gloves while cleaning, loading, air filtration at indoor ranges can all help. Checking your bench and work area and any attached buildings would be a good start. You had stated that you have been shooting less, are you reloading less? If your are shooting a lot of lead bullets have you changed brand, style, acquired any "old" bullets that have been traveling a great deal. Obviously it is probably your first thought ( shooting/reloading ) R/O that first, then look at paint in the house ( may have never been a problem before but the new puppy is scratching the door frame), water, food, new industrial corp. Symptoms can be excessive to nil, if high chelation is an option. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Hi Viper,

Over 45! its a 54 if this test is correct! The first test was 40 which I thought was in error!
The Dr is setting me up with a Specialist that has lots of experiance with this stuff. I'm in a new home so lead paint should not be a issue.

Yes, I have been reloading less also. All bullets are factory lubed totally in one manner or another. This lead issue is a puzzle at this time.
As many of you know many lead problems are very close to normal old age issues. I'm 72 now, so the few pain's & memory issues at this time are minor.I even asked family & friends if they see any changes...

Thankfully they all think all is well.I just want to make sure I don't become a problem to my family before time.

Best to all,
BB

Here is a good thread which has other links and info on lead. Without re hashing the whole topic , the majority of lead exposure is from indoor ranges. Using lead bullets (handling them) is not the problem. More exposure is from tumbling and shooting indoors.

Get a blood test from a Doctor. Not that expensive.

Blood lead levels

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Still Running Against the Wind

Do you wash good with soap after shooting, after reloading? Do you possibly smoke, drink, or eat when handling any lead products? How is the ventilation at the range where you shoot? If you can't feel the air moving past your head it isn't enough. Lead exposure is cumulative, and it will build up over time.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Hi Fellows,

Thanks for all your interest in this subject. I'm going to the link you fellows provided.
I picked up a lead check kit as Blue Ovel Bandit suggested. It was $10 at Home Depot!
I'm going to check my workbench top first & the floor around it. I really don't have much (if Any) lead buildup in the firearms I shoot lead in.

Yes! Is'm guilty of having a glass of water or a soft drink nearby, when I clean the firearms.
I'm going to use rubber gloves when cleaning & wash the area after use with that lead soap I have had for years.
I should hear about my appointment with the lead specialst tomorrow
(Mon.)

Please be careful out there,

BB

BB: I'm sure the specialist will go through the possible causes again, and look at various other causes to detailed for the forum. Chelation is also an option that he may consider after he R/O other diseases. Be Safe,

__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE

So here are my two cents (AKA this is not to be taken as official medical advice) on this from what I know from reading around about lead and my classes.

The lead content of the primers is immaterial as proper handling of lead containing products should prevent exposure entirely, wear gloves to be safe but the majority of lead exposure is due to inhalation or ingestion. Tumbling can result in concentrations of lead high in the air near the tumbler that I would not be near the tumbler while it's tumbling. If you cast bullets, which I think you would have mentioned, keep the alloy below boiling and don't cast indoors.

As for your lead tests, on all of these threads there is always talk of testing high, in reality, effectively any level over 20ug/dL is outside the normal range and while the closer to 20 the better if you are above. Heavy metals show different pathology in different individuals and to quote a leading study on lead exposure:

"there is no evidence for a threshold below which lead has no adverse health effects. Blood lead levels previously considered safe are no known to cause subtle chronic health effects"

Any value outside the 20ug/dL range is troubling, and I would go so far to say that even high normal values will probably be scrutinized by your physician. Typically in a chronic case of plumbism, symptoms are likely to manifest in the 60 or so ug/dL range with almost certain presentation of symptoms in the >100ug/dL range. Symptom presentation is insidious, slow to present and typically difficult to differentiate from other disorders or just plain old aging. The majority of symptoms are nonspecific, so the fact that no one close to you has noticed any differences would be expected.

Having the test redone by a different lab and having a different value may be indicative of additional lead exposure or simply differences in the methodology of the tests. Without knowing the labs to which you are sending them or if the tests are ordered by your doctor and go to an accredited lab, this cannot be determined one way or another. When lab values are reported, they normally do not include the statistical data regarding their confidence in the measure, it could in fact be that the values from a statistical stand point are the same, even though the number reported is different. It is also possible to have elevated levels and be asymptomatic, the primary mechanisms of lead toxicity, the biochemistry of which although interesting is beyond the scope of this post, may only present clinically when stressed physiologically at levels of lead in the elevated but sub 50/60 range.

Also, if we assume testing methodologies are identical and that the increase in lead levels is accurate, this would be expected if there is continued lead exposure. Lead being a heavy metal has poor clearance from the body, it accumulates quite well and therefore even trace exposure can result in high lead levels.

Of course, the lead exposure may have nothing to do with reloading at all. Make it easy on the physicians and simply stop reloading and shooting until a diagnosis can be determined and the source of the exposure identified. While this may not be what you want to do, it will help identify the source of the lead exposure. Of course, you can return to the activities above once this is all figured out. I don't mean to be a buzzkill, I too reload despite being in the medical community.

I would recommend reading the study I mentioned above, it provides a number of good questions and thinking points to perhaps help identify the source of your exposure and furthermore as a patient it pays to empower yourself with some info:

Identifying and managing adverse environmental health effects: 3. Lead exposure


Wishing you a speedy recovery.

Also, just out of a curiosity and not to pry, but what type of physician is your lead specialist? Can't rule it down in my head any further than some type of internalist.

What has likely changed in your shooting is your matabolism. Indoors shooting is really bad for you, regardless of the ventilation system, bullets used or brand of primer. You need to look into taking better care of your body & shooting less indoors.
If you smoke, quit. If you do NOT exercise, start. Include more grapefruit, apples & celantro in your diet. Be really careful about eating after shooting, wash those hands. Wear a dust mask when emptying the tumbler, tumble outside with the lid on.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Hi Jmmitc06, vipermd & Fredj338,

Thanks for your messages! All great points!

I'm going to a Hemocoligist/ Uncolagist who is a Professer at the local state Medical college. He should have a grip on this problem!
(Looks like it will take a few days to get to see him.)

I have stopped shooting at the indoor range. I did check the lead level on my work bench in the house & out in the garage using the 3M kit . No sign of lead in the tests. I guess that is a good thing.

I'm sure a dust mask or 3M dust mask & gloves are going to be with me as I reload.
Even though the 3 M lead test came in neg. I'm still going to wash everything off with lead removing soap. I'm not anal(?) but I'm not above protecting myself & the family from a problem.

My wife is recovering from a operation, so the next time I can get out.
I'm going to pick up a few of the vitamins & other healthy items mentioned in the reading links, many of you have sent me.

Thank you for your intrest in a total strangers problem,

B B



As I said before I feel fine & when asked all my friends & family say I'm still me! If you have seen people will failing memory & other medical problems they are usually the last to realise it.

BB: Good to hear your going to see an hematologist/oncologist, it becomes a very specialized field and they should get you an answer. As for Sx, you may have little to no problems ( GI,blood etc) but jmmitc06 stated, even without Sx damage can still be done. Wish you & your wife the best. Be Safe,

__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE

Hi Sir,

I have appointment for Feb. 4. I will show the Dr. the two tests I had done.
My guess there will be a third test, hopfully done correctly. To get a true reading. Then we go from there.
I did buy & take Alfalfa tablets, Calcium & Vitamin C today.
Did I jumping the gun with the store bought meds? Maybe!

I'll post on this issue as things develop.

Best to all,
BB

BB: He/She may also do a hair sample, along with different blood tests that will tell them about your bone marrow, immune system, liver, other heavy metal elevations. I could only find one study using smokers that showed an increase in urinary excretion of lead while taking 1000 mg of vit C per day. Small study, short period, I would not put much weight on it. As for Vit C- take it, extra will be excreted, Ca-I am betting you are over 50 yr old, the Ca will not hurt, ( possible GI irritation in Large doses), Alfalfa-??? Sprouts? Tablets? While alfalfa does contain a great deal of nutrients which can be derived by a cow, I do not know how a human GI tract could fully access these nutrients, it has also been suggested to help decrease cholesterol by some UNKNOWN means. As long as you are not taking medication that it would interfere with you should be fine. If you have any questions about side effects with any medications you may use, you should contact your Doctor to let him know what supplements you are planning on taking. Be Safe,

__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE

ViperMD: I hadn't thought about the vitamin C thing until I read your post, I assume it increases the very small amount of renal lead clearance?

Also, as for the supplements:

This article (abstract only) discusses the role of Vitamin E and C in reducing radical induced damage by lead. Effect of lead with vitamin E, C, or Spirulina on malondialdehyde, conjugated dienes and... - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central.

While vitamin C is rather benign as it is water soluble, I would be hesitant to start high doses of vitamin E for the following reasons.
1) Lead inactivates an two enzymes necessary for proper hematostasis: delta-aminolevulinic acid dehydratase (you need it to make heme, the oxygen carrying domain of the hemoglobin protein) and ferrochelatase, resulting in the production of zinc protoporphyrin (heme with a Zn ion instead of Fe).

2) In short, you can't make hemoglobin well, so anemia occurs, hence why the hematologist is the go-to guy for the lead poisoning stuff. You'll probably here the word sideroblastic anemia thrown around, that's just the subtype of anemia lead poisoning causes.

3) Vitamin E can block the absorption of vitamin K at very high doses of E. Vitamin K is needed for proper blood clotting. While anemia itself does not predispose one to bleeding, the blood is not functioning properly due to the anemia. I would be hesitant to throw another stressor on to the system. Please note, that this only occurs at absurd levels of vitamin E, but I did hear of this happening once on rounds, and it is a level of vitamin E that can be reached with megadosing on OTC supplements.

This fact sheet has some good data:

http://www.lead.org.au/fs/Fact_sheet..._June_2010.pdf

It discusses vitamin E, albeit membrane stability isn't the issue in sideroblastic anemia (SA) so IDK why the fact sheet brings that up really. Pyrodoxine (B6) is mentioned as well but it really only matters in SA if B6 deficiency is the cause it seems from my readings.

Calcium apparently reduces lead release from the bone, a storage site by inhibit bone breakdown (bone breakdown is a normal process btw, not a byproduct of high lead) but only in conjunction with Vit D and Mg. To get those compounds I would modify my diet not take them exogenously.

I'm sure you've read up on chelation, they may perform that but the current guidelines only call for chelation when the source of lead exposure has been identified and removed. Dimercaprol + calciumdisodium EDTA is used for high BLLs, and Succimer is useful for low ones it seems.

Medscape: Medscape Access

Just as vipermd said, let the doc know about your supplements, they can interfere, modify the actions of other drugs.

Hi Fellows,

Your posted sites will keep me reading for a few hours!

I'll make my list of meds up for the Dr & let him know when I started the suggested over the counter pills.
My (main )thought is I have had two tests that were not preformed correctly. Apparently, this test is not called for very often.

Thanks to all of you,
BB

Hi Fellows,

We went to the Specialist at the teaching Hospital today. He took blood for seven (7) blood tests .
One of his interns mentioned that there have been a few cases of lead leaching from imported cups & that type of item. Other than that I'm in good shape I'm told.

As a control he tested my wife too. We should have some results in two weeks. He did mention the added pills mentioned in the refrence sources you fellows mentiond can't hurt.

He did mention the two tests I had done, should not vary so much in the short span of time between them. Since I had not been shooting or reloading. If the wif is high it has to be some thing in the house. It's a new home less then 20 years old all plastic pipes.

We will just take this one step at a time.

Best to all,
BB

I shoot almost exclusively at indoor ranges for the last 40 years. Started with blood level of 6 and currently have a blood level of 8.
There are other sources of lead, you know?
Just in shooting, there is lead exposure from cleaning brass, eating, drinking, smoking, picking your nose, rubbing your eye, cleaning you ear, etc. Keep your hands clean and don't stick them around your face.

BB: How are you doing? Any further results or clues as to wear the lead exposure might be? Be Safe,

__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE

I used to live in Jackson MS. There was local indoor range that had ventilation problem. Everyone on the staff tested very high for lead exposure. Even the folks that worked at the front counter tested very high..

If the range of your choice has a poor system, it could indeed elevate your lead levels.

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The American dream is alive

Boolit Bub is a friend. His lead level is way down. Possible testing errors or exposure from an indoor range.

My blood lead level was 20. Mine was caused by smelting/casting bullets for 6 days, and failure to adequately wash my hands.

We are both ok now.

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S&WHF 366

A guy stands in front of the air vent and waves a newspaper.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I will not use a brass tumbler.

With the recovery from surgery lingering, are you bringing home dinner more often?

"The cause, she found, was food colouring contaminated with compounds of lead. Lead chromate was added to the turmeric to brighten its golden colour and lead oxide gave the chilli powders a rich red hue. The other spices tested, including curry powders, garam and chat masalas, had small amounts of lead, but not at such high levels as the turmeric and chilli"
Dangerous spices: why India's cooking powders pose a risk of lead poisoning | Global development | The Guardian