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Old 02-08-2014, 03:19 PM
noshow noshow is offline
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Default 2400 load for Mod 19 Questions

Hi to all:
I have 1lb of old "Hercules" 2400 and about 400 158gr Lead SWCs that I am considering using for 357 MAG reloads for my 6" Mod 19-3. I am limited to my Pacific Pistol Powder measure and bushing #19 which throws 12.7gr of 2400. All my reloading manuals are as old as the powder and call for 13.5gr to 15.5gr of the same powder. My questions are:
1) Is this load too lite?
2) Any idea of the velocity attained?
3) Do I need Magnum Primers?
I appreciate all opinions on this recipe! I have a bad case of cabin fever and wanted to occupy some of my time reloading. Thanks in advance!
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:33 PM
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1. Not too light for use but would be a little lighter than a factory load.

2. SWAG of about 1150 fps.

3. Standard small pistol primers will do just fine.

Try it and let us know how you like it.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OFT II View Post
1. Not too light for use but would be a little lighter than a factory load.

2. SWAG of about 1150 fps.

3. Standard small pistol primers will do just fine.

Try it and let us know how you like it.
Thank you so much for that fast reply! All I'm looking to do is create a mild magnum load that is both above +P velocity and will be kind to my fragile Mod 19's forcing cone. Thanks again
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:56 PM
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I load 13.5gr. of 2400 with a 158gr LSWC. Nice shooting, accurate round with no signs of leading in my 6" 686. 12.7gr should work fine in your M19. 2400 will get dirty if you load it down enough.
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:42 PM
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I use 12 grains #2400 as a regular .357 load with a 158 LSWC, standard primers, though magnums will work about as well. Chronographs 1,100 fps from 6" barrel and is accurate.
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:01 PM
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Default Yellow gold

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Originally Posted by Collo Rosso View Post
2400 will get dirty if you load it down enough.
It gets a yellow-gold powder all over your gun and hands.
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  #7  
Old 02-08-2014, 09:16 PM
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I would still use magnum primers because they are typically recommended with 2400. I don't think that is because it is necessarily a heavy load but because the powder is more difficult to ignite uniformly.
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:54 PM
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Very close to a .38-44 load. Might burn more cleanly in a. .38 special case. Don't put it in an Aircrew.
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:27 PM
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The K frame M19 is plenty sturdy for the 158 lead medium fps loads you are starting with.

I started with 11.4 grs of 2400 with a cci500 standard primer and a 158gr LRN in my 6" and the fps over my chrony was at......
1039 fps and at 25 yards grouped at 1.25".

Have yet to try more powder as yet.....

Good loading.
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:33 PM
Treeman Treeman is offline
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My old notes show 12.8 of Herc 2400 giving 1150 fps in a 4 inch Ruger Security Six. with a 160 grain cast SWC.....and it was noted as a "good load". I've gone to 15 grains in testing but settled on 14 grains as all I want to put through my Mod 19 as "full power" loads....mostly I shoot 38 spl in it.
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:04 AM
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With lighter charges of 2400 like your 12.7 grs I have found that
consistancy is greatly improved with magnum primers and pressure
should surely still be mild considering that older data went up to
15.5 grs.
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  #12  
Old 02-09-2014, 09:00 AM
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Lyman calls for a magnum small pistol primer. I don't know why you would not use one.

Lyman Manual #47 calls for a starting load of 11.4 /1024 fps
Max load 15.5 /1344 fps.

158 cast round nose.

It could be a good accurate load, who knows? Check for leading.

Enjoy
David
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:32 AM
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Your load needs a good roll crimp. Hard to define the degree of a crimp, but a bit of experimentation will be worth the effort. What some define as a "heavy" crimp may distort the bullet to the point of causing inaccuracy. Too light a crimp and the bullet moves under recoil and powder burning is not efficient; i.e., unburned particles.
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:50 AM
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
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The classic 2400 loads handed down from Moses were developed with std primers. Full loads of 2400 give lower pressures , and usually better accuracy.

That said , as mentioned a cpl posts above in a magnum case , this is a pretty mild load , and try it both ways with std and mag primers for accuracy and SD .

Also as mentioned above this would be a dandy .38-44 load ( with std primers ) .
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:05 AM
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Something that always puzzles me is a poster saying he can only use a certain bushing or other measuring device because it is the only one he has. Why can't he buy more bushings? Why can't he buy a powder measure? Has he checked that bushing's drop weight with the powder he has using a scale or is he going strictly by a chart? Certainly anyone who has the financial ability to own a Smith & Wesson revolver and reload for it is able to make those purchases. Or am I missing something?

It troubles me to read about handloaders "settling" on a given recipe because it is the only one they have the tools or components to load. Granted, this OP probably isn't going to make any unsafe ammunition but that isn't always the case.

Just wonderin' - no offense meant.

Ed
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AveragEd View Post
Something that always puzzles me is a poster saying he can only use a certain bushing or other measuring device because it is the only one he has. Why can't he buy more bushings? Why can't he buy a powder measure? Has he checked that bushing's drop weight with the powder he has using a scale or is he going strictly by a chart? Certainly anyone who has the financial ability to own a Smith & Wesson revolver and reload for it is able to make those purchases. Or am I missing something?

It troubles me to read about handloaders "settling" on a given recipe because it is the only one they have the tools or components to load. Granted, this OP probably isn't going to make any unsafe ammunition but that isn't always the case.

Just wonderin' - no offense meant.

Ed
You're missing a couple of facts, Ed. I'm 71, bought the gun new 37 years ago, Pacific no longer makes the bushings and I live on Social Security and a part time job. 37 years ago, I WAS able to afford to make the purchases you speak of. Things change............
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:04 PM
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Well, I'll be 67 next week and live on Social Security and two part-time jobs, so we have something in common. I meant no offense but on many forums like this, I read about handloaders making do with what they have and not using a scale so often that it makes me worry about who I'm shooting next to at the gun clubs to which I belong. I've never witnessed a rifle or handgun blowing up but I have been around two trap shotguns that were grenaded by careless reloading techniques. It isn't pretty and someone usually gets hurt.

Ed
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:43 PM
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P M sent. about bushings
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  #19  
Old 02-09-2014, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noshow View Post
Hi to all:
I have 1lb of old "Hercules" 2400 and about 400 158gr Lead SWCs that I am considering using for 357 MAG reloads for my 6" Mod 19-3. I am limited to my Pacific Pistol Powder measure and bushing #19 which throws 12.7gr of 2400. All my reloading manuals are as old as the powder and call for 13.5gr to 15.5gr of the same powder. My questions are:
1) Is this load too lite?
2) Any idea of the velocity attained?
3) Do I need Magnum Primers?
I appreciate all opinions on this recipe! I have a bad case of cabin fever and wanted to occupy some of my time reloading. Thanks in advance!
noshow
I'm not sure of the limits of the K frame, nor how Herco 2400 compares to Alliant 2400, but I've done three different tests (chorograph and targets) with Alliant 2400, using my Model 686, 6 inch.

Almost all with CCI #500 small pistol primers, the few I did with magnum primers were accurate, but the ES and STD were higher than with std SPP - so I'd say from my tests - use SPP
the bullets were 158 gr hardcast truncated cone - very similar to the SWC

at 12.8 gr of 2400, I got the following:
AVG V = 1205 w/1.3" groups
AVG V = 1245 w/1.1" groups
AVG V = 1229 w/1.1" groups

and one test of 12.6 gr
AVG V = 1220 w/1.6" groups

these were shot from a rest at 25 yards.
I don't believe there was any unburnt powder with this load, I did get some with lighter loads

I did 11.5 gr to 14.5 gr. & 10 rounds of each charge three times.

if I had shot all 300 rounds into a single target, pretty much all of them would have fell within the same 2.5" circle - so, in my tests, the powder charge didn't have too much to do with accuracy

good luck on treating your cabin fever and I hope this helps.

here are some links to my tests:
357 & 2400 chrono and target results

Chrono data 357 / 2400 / CCI500 / 158 gr cast w/targets

Chrono data with target groups +
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Old 02-09-2014, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noshow View Post
You're missing a couple of facts, Ed. I'm 71, bought the gun new 37 years ago, Pacific no longer makes the bushings and I live on Social Security and a part time job. 37 years ago, I WAS able to afford to make the purchases you speak of. Things change............
Once you settle on a load, if you have a good scale you can make a simple dipper from an old brass case. File down the case mouth until it holds the exact amount you want. Wrap a piece of strong wire. or glue or solder it on. Fill it to over flow scrape off the top,(don't tap and shake) and it,s very constant.

Costs nothing and easy to do. I used to reload on a single stage and had all kinds of custom dippers along with the LEE plastic ones. Put them all in a loading block and dip away!

EDIT: 12.7 gr of 2400 is just fine for your load and NO you do not need to use Mag primers.
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:28 AM
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Thumbs up Thanks to all!

Noshow is overwhelmed with so many helpful replys! Thanks so much for the great information so willingly offered. This is one of the friendliest corners of the internet!
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:10 AM
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I am fifty something. I like seeing folks 67 and 71 still reloading and shooting. My future is brighter!
David
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:08 PM
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I recently loaded both some 44 Specials and 357s with some 2400 that was marked 1978. Worked great (as it always did) in both loads.

My 357s were a bit warmer than yours and I DID shoot some in a 19-3, too. I always use mag primers (or WW primers that don't distinguish mag from regular) with 2400 -- just cuz they say to do so.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:23 PM
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That load should work just fine. I don't recall Model 19 forcing cones being particularly fragile until the late Seventies. Revolvers that easily tolerated stiff loads with 158 LSWCs experienced flame cutting and forcing cone problems after hot 125 grain JHPs became all the rage.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:59 PM
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Default Lyman says....

Quote:
Originally Posted by David R View Post
Lyman calls for a magnum small pistol primer. I don't know why you would not use one.

Lyman Manual #47 calls for a starting load of 11.4 /1024 fps
Max load 15.5 /1344 fps.

.

Enjoy
David
Lyman just puts a note in front of the .357 section that says to use magnum primers on everything and doesn't differentiate. Speer #14 says magnum primers are not needed with 2400 and I've never used them with no problems. With powders like 110/296 they DO recommend magnum primers.
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:50 PM
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The standard primer vs. magnum primers with #2400 powder debate will likely go on forever. I was curious about this several years ago. I loaded 12 grains #2400 with the original .357 Magnum bullet - the Hensley & Gibbs #51 plainbase 158 grain SWC cast from wheelweight alloy. I fired five, five-shot groups at 25 yards from a benchrest using the same load, only switching primers between each 25 rounds. I used a Colt Pythom with a six-inch barrel. Loads were chronographed and all group sizes were measured.

Primers: CCI -standard & magnum, Federal- match & magnum, Remington- standard & magnum, Winchester- standard and magnum.

40 groups of 5 rounds each; 200 rounds total.

Muzzle velocities varied from a low of 1183 (Federal small pistol magnum) to a high of 1261 (Win. small pistol magnum). Exactly the same primers gave best accuracy (1.95" for Fed. magnum) and worst accuracy ( 3.10" for Win. magnum). All other primers provided very similar groups sizes, ranging from 2.25" to 2.75".

With the exception of the two extremes, performance was very close in all respects. There was a very slight accuracy advantage with magnum primers, but not enough to convince me to stop using standard primers. However, long-range handgunning, something few of us do, would probably make me reconsider.
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:16 AM
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Default Special Thanks!

I wanted to thank "coldmold", a member here, for providing me with the powder bushings I was missing. I now have a complete set, thanks to his kind help. I am very happy to have posted this question on this most friendly forum. Thank you!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:29 AM
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I also load 158gr LSWC's over 13.5-13.8 grains of 2400 and use standard CCI500 primers with great accuracy and the 'go bang" feel of the magnum we all love!
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:45 PM
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Default I don't do anything unsafe.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AveragEd View Post
Well, I'll be 67 next week and live on Social Security and two part-time jobs, so we have something in common. I meant no offense but on many forums like this, I read about handloaders making do with what they have and not using a scale so often that it makes me worry about who I'm shooting next to at the gun clubs to which I belong. I've never witnessed a rifle or handgun blowing up but I have been around two trap shotguns that were grenaded by careless reloading techniques. It isn't pretty and someone usually gets hurt.

Ed
I don't do anything at all unsafe, just CHEAP!
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:24 PM
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My general purpose 357 load for many years has been 12.5 grains 2400, 158 gran cast bullet, standard primer in 357 cases. Used in everything from Model 19's to Model 28's with complete satisfaction. If I want more power I switch to a 44 Magnum.
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Old 05-01-2017, 07:33 PM
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Hi,
For what it is worth.
I have been trying different loads for my 6 inch Smith Model 19-5, 1984. Powders, primers, bullets and so on. I am very meticulous when it comes to clean brass and clean firearms. I use to load 2400 quite a bit years ago. Load data has changed over the years and my old data did seem rather hot by todays standards. To make a long story shorter, I finally found a load that I and my Model 19 likes. Very clean cases, primer pockets and firearm. 14.8grs. 2400 powder, cci primers, 140gr. Sierra JHP at 1.586 OAL. All with medium heavy crimp. One of the cleanest burns over many other powders, great accuracy (30 yds. 6 shots less 1") and no signs of pressure problems. Used both magnum and standard primers. I do suspect the magnum primers created more pressure. I also loaded 14grs. 2400 and accuracy dropped at ninety feet. Any feedback appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David R View Post
I am fifty something. I like seeing folks 67 and 71 still reloading and shooting. My future is brighter!
David
I'm going to be 75 this month and I still reload and shoot 5000+ centerfire handgun rounds per year. I started reloading in 1964 with a Lyman 310 hand tool. Calibers include .455 Webley, .32 S&W as well as the usual stuff. I think you've got a very bright future indeed! I hope I do too.
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  #33  
Old 05-02-2017, 09:08 AM
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The " forcing cone " issue was the result of shooting lightweight (125-90gr) jacketed bullets with a compressed load of W296 , it was 21grs and sometimes more . It eroded the forcing cones , weakening them till they cracked .
I routinely shoot 13.5 grs / 2400 in my 19 , 6" with a 158 gr cast bullet . I use std spp's .
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:41 AM
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I am using 13.8 gr of 2400 with 158Gr. Lswc in my 686+ . Its a nice medium load and very accurate.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:50 AM
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Well, I'll be 67 next week and live on Social Security and two part-time jobs, so we have something in common. I meant no offense but on many forums like this, I read about handloaders making do with what they have and not using a scale so often that it makes me worry about who I'm shooting next to at the gun clubs to which I belong. I've never witnessed a rifle or handgun blowing up but I have been around two trap shotguns that were grenaded by careless reloading techniques. It isn't pretty and someone usually gets hurt.

Ed
Double powder charge with a heavy field load like 1 1/4 oz. That really rattles some guns, some even come apart. I don't know what it is about trap shooters, they just load a lot of grenades looking for that magical high velocity load. The very worst of that group is the money shooters. Stay away.
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:09 AM
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Nice thread with lots of useful information.

I normally just shoot 38 spl cowboy loads in my model 19's but I want to start using 357 cases and 2400.

To date I've only used 2400 for my rifle loads. It doesn't care about heavy charges, actually shoots better with faster loads.

I'll probably have to paint the primers so I don't get them mixed up.

I'm saving this thread.
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by David R View Post
I am fifty something. I like seeing folks 67 and 71 still reloading and shooting. My future is brighter!
David
I'm 67 and reload. You have to do something when you retire except mow the lawn and go to the range. I try to stay away from the warden as she has designs on my time.
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Old 05-02-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by noshow View Post
Hi to all:
I have 1lb of old "Hercules" 2400 and about 400 158gr Lead SWCs that I am considering using for 357 MAG reloads for my 6" Mod 19-3. I am limited to my Pacific Pistol Powder measure and bushing #19 which throws 12.7gr of 2400. All my reloading manuals are as old as the powder and call for 13.5gr to 15.5gr of the same powder. My questions are:
1) Is this load too lite?
2) Any idea of the velocity attained?
3) Do I need Magnum Primers?
I appreciate all opinions on this recipe! I have a bad case of cabin fever and wanted to occupy some of my time reloading. Thanks in advance!
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook says 12.2-13.5. That is essentially 10% lower than Alliant's current load for jacketed (14.3 max). I'd say you're good to go.

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Old 05-03-2017, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cowboy4evr View Post
The " forcing cone " issue was the result of shooting lightweight (125-90gr) jacketed bullets with a compressed load of W296 , it was 21grs and sometimes more . It eroded the forcing cones , weakening them till they cracked .
I routinely shoot 13.5 grs / 2400 in my 19 , 6" with a 158 gr cast bullet . I use std spp's .
I cracked one using Blue Dot powder. It's not the powder; it is hot loads with bullets of 125 grains or less.
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:28 PM
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The " forcing cone " issue was the result of shooting lightweight (125-90gr) jacketed bullets with a compressed load of W296 , it was 21grs and sometimes more . It eroded the forcing cones , weakening them till they cracked .
I'm sorry but this statement is not factual. Smith & Wesson has NEVER condoned the use of any handloaded ammunition in their firearms and any damage caused when using handloaded ammo was entirely the responsibility of the shooter and not S&W.

The k-frame .357 magnums were designed originally for use in a LE environment where practice would be conducted using .38 Special ammo and the firing of full power 158 grain .357 magnum ammunition would be limited to qualification and duty carry. With the advent of high velocity 110 and 125 grain loadings such as those manufactured by SuperVel, the cracking problems arose. As the popularity of these loadings became more popular, the mainstream ammo companies jumped on the bandwagon and the use of light bullet for the caliber loads became wide spread. Because of this, Smith and Wesson warned against the use of magnum ammunition utilizing bullets lighter than 140 grains in the k-frame magnums. This warning had zero to do with handloads of any type and I don't know where this notion came from or why it continues to be propagated. This goes double for the "W296" enhancer. It is an internet enhanced myth.

Bruce

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Old 05-04-2017, 10:05 AM
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wonder how much carbon build up around forcing cone on the Model 19 contributes to erosion and eventually failure. Carbon ignites around 1292 degrees F. Flat areas great place for deposits to accumulate. Once ignited it can reach 2012 degrees F. until spent. Carbon deposits on automotive valves can burn through the valve.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:29 AM
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Lots of myths and opinions out there in internet land. So far as I know Alliant the maker of 2400 ignites 2400 with standard primers. Just now looking at their web site 2400 data, all loads I looked at called for standard primers. I would suppose that the manufacturer might know best.
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:17 PM
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I'm sorry Bruce M , but your post is not factual . W296 , H110 over time will erode the forcing cone . Those real light weight jacketed bullets slamming into eroded forcing cone under very high pressure did cause some to crack . This is a known fact . We each have our opinion on this matter , I will stick to mine .

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Old 05-04-2017, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by red1 View Post
wonder how much carbon build up around forcing cone on the Model 19 contributes to erosion and eventually failure. Carbon ignites around 1292 degrees F. Flat areas great place for deposits to accumulate. Once ignited it can reach 2012 degrees F. until spent. Carbon deposits on automotive valves can burn through the valve.
Mine cracked somewhere around 750 cartridges fired, so erosion or carbon build-up are not factors in my opinion and in my experience.

I am glad no one has mentioned the "steady diet of magnum ammo" line of Bull Squeezein's.
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:35 AM
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My favorite load for years in my model 19-5 , 4" was my cast 180 gr RNFP on top of a max load ( current load data) of W296 . It's as tight today as the day I bought it . Model 19/66 was designed for 158 gr , or heavier bullet . That's straight from S&W memo yrs ago . Yrs ago I researched it .
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Old 05-05-2017, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AveragEd View Post
Something that always puzzles me is a poster saying he can only use a certain bushing or other measuring device because it is the only one he has. Why can't he buy more bushings? Or am I missing something?

It troubles me to read about handloaders "settling" on a given recipe because it is the only one they have the tools or components to load.

Just wonderin' - no offense meant. Ed
Do tell!

Well...for those of us in similar situation, who have used that pistol measure for more than 30 years with great satisfaction; It was a sad day when they were discontinued! They do speed up charging pistol cases marvelously! I was tired of using my Lee dippers, although I still have a set that I use...not as Herr Lee suggests, but nonetheless useful.

The only competitor that Hornady-Pacific had in them days was the RCBS Little Dandy, which was, and still is, a good measure, but expen$ive!,

When I bought my Pacific, economics raised its ugly head. I think I got the measure, and maybe 4 bushings for a fraction of what the competition would have cost, and as I progressed, I was able to get more bushings. Iirc, then, they were about ~ $3 with shipping. My last one, bought 2 weeks ago, to fill a remaining hole in the lower charges, was ~$15. I probably won't buy another!

Over the years, I am happy to have filled out my collection with a new# 8 to add to my stable of 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, and 22. That will cover all useful loads with Unique, Universal, 2400, and Trail Boss, plus any other replacements for Unique/Universal that I may want to try.

So, if the bushings won't throw to the last 1/1000gr. of my chosen loads, "Close enough is good enough", except for those of us who insist on the last gnat's nut of "consistency", or maybe who like to hang our backsides over the abyss of "Maximum" loads, they are plenty good, especially if we load on the conservative side, and have found what we envision will do the job. I don't presume that a .1 or .2 gr. variation on one side or the other of a "favorite" load will make a real world difference in either pressure, velocity or effectiveness.

But, that's just me.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Warren Sear View Post
Mine cracked somewhere around 750 cartridges fired, so erosion or carbon build-up are not factors in my opinion and in my experience.

I am glad no one has mentioned the "steady diet of magnum ammo" line of Bull Squeezein's.
Any thoughts on why cracked around 750 rounds. I do believe carbon is very hard on forcing cone. It acts like a metal blasting agent wherever it can escape. Sometimes flame cutting top strap and/or erosion of forcing cone. What powder and grain bullet, if I may ask.
Thanks
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:07 PM
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My 19-4 had tight throats, so before I fired lead bullets I had the throats reamed to .3575 and the forcing cone recut. First I tried .357 lead, and that didn't work with the standard bore.
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren Sear View Post
I cracked one using Blue Dot powder. It's not the powder; it is hot loads with bullets of 125 grains or less.
I bet Blue Dot contributed. I really dislike powder this powder for any handgun.

Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by red1 View Post
Any thoughts on why cracked around 750 rounds. I do believe carbon is very hard on forcing cone. It acts like a metal blasting agent wherever it can escape. Sometimes flame cutting top strap and/or erosion of forcing cone. What powder and grain bullet, if I may ask.
Thanks
There are as many theories about that as there are about who killed JFK. The bottom line is that high pressure loads with bullets of 125 (or so) grains or less will damage a K frame .357 magnum, sooner or later.
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