I bought a lever action 357 magnum rifle a few weeks back, and was really excited to work up some good rifle-specific loads.

So, with that in mind, I picked up two boxes of the Hornady 140gr FTX bullets. These are the "pointy" bullets with the polymer tip(as used in their factory Leverevolution loads) so that they can be safely loaded in a tube magazine.

I checked a Hornady manual in the store, but the loading data for this bullet is minimal. The only powders it lists are AA #7, AA #9, Enforcer, and Vihtavuori N110. All of these powders are, at least for the time being, unobtainable around here.

My Lyman manual skips over this bullet entirely(it is sufficiently different from the 140gr XTP that I'm not comfortable using that data).

The Hogdon website does at least list a few more powders, including H110. I don't have any H110, but plan to pick up a pound of this(or W296) the next time I see it available. I'm still kicking myself for not buying some two weeks ago when I saw it.

I do have two "magnum" powders on hand, 2400, and 300MP. I'd hoped to at least find some load data for this bullet for 2400, but that seems to be eluding me at the moment. Can anyone point me toward either an online or print source with load data for this specific bullet and one of these two powders?


These loads will only be shot out of a rifle(Rossi 92) so "rifle" load data is fine.

Thanks

~ Howdy Ben
I will soon be loading the 140' xtp's, .. I just looked in all
3 of my manuals for ftx data and found nothing, but I was
reading somewhere recently that the the brass (cases) have to
actually be "trimmed" to accept this particular projectile?
And was just wondering if you knew of this, .. just did a
quick search & found this .........

"just remember Hornady recommends trimming your cases shorter than standard
to keep OAL within specs when using their FTX bullet. They are adjusting their
load recipes to accommodate the smaller case capacity....
..if you use load recipes that are not FTX specific, you yourself will have to
make this adjustment. Load recipes for XTPs are quite easy to find for most powders
and in most cases, duplicate the load recipes for other brands
of bullets in their weight category."

Hornady FTX vs XTP loads - THR

Handloads.Com Forum: 357 mag Load with Hornady 140gr. FTX

.. Will be interesting to see what you come up with, been
thinking of gettin' a lever gun myself* .. Good Luck

~ Don

Don,

Thanks for the response.

I had come across the suggestion to trim the cases. Since I don't really want to mess up good 357 brass, I went ahead and loaded a few dummy rounds in "regular" length 357 cases.

The dummy rounds loaded and cycled fine in my rifle, so I think that I'm just going to go ahead and load them in standard length cases.

So, with that in mind, I'll go ahead with a cautious work-up using the 140gr XTP data. I'll report back here once I've had a chance to do so.

Thanks again,
Ben

The issue with trimming them is not so much the action cycling, it is the long ogive on the bullet engaging the rifling when the round is chambered. Load up a dummy, mark the bullet with a black sharpie marker or dykem, and chamber it. Remove the round and examine the bullet for marks indicating it was touching the rifling. If so, you need to trim the brass to avoid an excessive pressure spike when it lights off.

The dummy round my have cycled correctly but that was luck for the most part. If you cycle the lever quickly like when you are on a hunt you will see the problems show up. You aren't "ruining" the brass when you trim it down, just use the same brass for the FTX bullets from now on. I'm almost sure you will use them again when you see how much flatter they shoot than other .357" bullets and how accurate they shoot. You will only need 40 or 50 cases for hunting ammo. I got the first 50 pieces from the factory LVR ammo I bought. Later I trimmed an additional 50 pieces from some Hornady cases I found at the range in a .357 Magnum XTP box.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

If you have any other Hodgdon powders you may want to check their web site, they do have recent data for the FTX bullets.

However, from comparing the data for more recent tests using Autocomp I suspect that the FTX data given was for cases that had been trimmed per Hornady's suggestion. It would be nice if Hodgdon (or Hornady) would make that particular detail clear. Personally, I think a call to Hornady is in order and if you do, make sure that let them know you don't appreciate that they allow data to be published without some specific notation that the cases were trimmed. I mean, come on, what the heck are we supposed to call this new trim length, the 357 Minimum?

Hornady manual (at last version #8) does indicate a trim of
1.240" for the 140 FTX

Hodgdon uses a trim of 1.285 which as you say is NOT good based on what Hornady says it should be.

Hodgdon and their new fangled website needs to address that.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

IMO it's Hornady who is wrong. The MINIMUM trim length for the 357 Magnum per SAAMI is 1.270 inch. Since the actual specified range is 1.270-1.290 inch Hodgdon is within spec at 1.285 and it's Hornady who has committed a Foul.

Personally I don't care if they lose a tiny bit of aerodynamics, Hornady should designe their bullets to function properly in a case that is within SAAMI specifications. Asking people to trim to some oddball length that falls between 38 spl. and 357 Magnum is just plain WRONG.

If you want to use a pointed bullet in a cartridge that over history has only used flat or round bullets you have to make an adjustment somewhere. Shortening a case by only a few one-hundredths of an inch does not make a .357 Magnum into a .38 Special case. I'm not completely sure using such a bullet in the .357 Magnum is necessary even though I like them but for those who like it I see no big deal making the case ever-so-slightly shorter.

I do like those FTX bullets in the 30-30 and 45-70 because they do increase the range of each by 50 yards and keep the bullet flatter.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Based on the advice here, I went out and bought a new Lyman trimmer, and have started trimming a lot of 357 magnum brass to the suggested length. I'll go ahead and do 50 cases, which should give me some room to work up a load.

Thanks again for the advice and suggestions.

Well yes, I suppose if you put it like that. I see no sense in the FTX anyway. The good old XTP's are fine and can actually be safely used in tube magazines.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

There's been problems with the XTPs fired from leverguns. They don't seem to hold up well with the extra velocity generated from a longer barrel.

The FTX on the other hand does very well.

Just be aware that you will have to keep those shortened cases segregated forever. Because if you try using them with a standard bullet you'll have issues with the cannelure not lining up or your crimp die not setting a crimp unless you load those STANDARD bullets short, something I'm not willing to do in a 357 Magnum.

IMO the wiser option would be to figure out some way of chopping 0.04 inch off the plastic tip and use that to obtain the shorter COAL Hornady suggests. BTW, this is what Hornady should have done from the start with these bullets. Because in time I'll bet that some of these shortened cases will end up mixed up in with the standard length cases and then you have problems with missing crimps.

Yup, they will separate and sometimes leave the jacket in the bore when you push them much above 1600fps. I'm not sure about 357, but I do know they make "Magnum" rated XTPs in .45 cal that are designed for rifle velocities.

Any documentation , actual verified tests of that??

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

From Hornady's website: Bullets - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
XTP®

The controlled expansion of the XTP and XTP Mag is 1.5x its original diameter over a wide range of velocities. It features a heavier jacket, which stands up to the high pressures and velocities of the highest performance handgun. Find out more...

XTP®

Controlled expansion with deep penetration.
Recommended muzzle velocity range: 700 to 1500 fps

XTP® MAG™

Controlled expansion with deep penetration at higher velocities than the original XTP.
Recommended muzzle velocity range: 1200 to 2300 fps

FTX®

The Flex Tip design makes the FTX safe in all tubular magazines and delivers controlled expansion across a broad range of velocities. The FTX also delivers the flattest trajectories EVER from lever guns.
More about FTX Rifle products...
More about FTX Handgun products...

Rapid, controlled expansion with deep penetration.
Recommended muzzle velocity range: Handgun 800 to 2100 fps
Recommended muzzle velocity range: Rifle 1800 to 3000 fps.

This older thread also has a nice chart in it showing the design target velocities for various Hornady bullets: hunting load opinions for 240gr XTP bullets,or Speer GDHP #4455

It's amazing that even after the introduction of the FTX, Hornady Manual #8 list velocities for the XTP in other 357 calibers (Maximum, Bain Davis,Herrett) at speeds exceeding 2200 FPS. The 110 XTP in the 357-44 Bain Davis it's max is 2400 fps.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Bigger case capacity with slower burning powders and a less steeply sloped pressure curve giving a slower rate of acceleration to that max velocity?

Just trying to say that I doubt the jackets separate at higher speeds.

The FTX to me is just very good marketing.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

It's not just how fast you push the bullet, it is also how hard you hit it with pressure, the steepness of the pressure curve slope, and the rate of acceleration that can cause problems.

That sounds good but as I mentioned in post 15 , please provide documentation that shows the XTP separates at rifle velocities??. Years ago I called Hornady and discussed the use in 30-30 tube fed lever guns. They stated they are fine, made for that. The bullet has been successfully used for many many years in rifles.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Well, I did manage to get my hands on some Win 296.

Even though load data is scarce, I used the data in the print Hodgon manual along with Quickload and came up with what I think is a safe starting load along with a little bit of a work-up.

The big issue I'm having now is seating the bullets without distorting the tip. This continues to get complicated


I know that Lee will make up a custom seating plug for me for $8, although the wait time is stated as 4-6 weeks. I'm thinking about just ordering another "standard" seating plug and seeing if I can modify it to suit my purposes for this bullet.

You've been advised more than once about the problem. If you choose to ignore it then so be it.

As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water...............!

Hornady only recommends that trim length for the FTX bullet. For all other bullets, in my manual, it actually recommends 1.280".





Hornady also makes a 158gr XTP-FP that performs terminally much better than the XTP-HP at carbine velocities. As for the extra effort of trimming and segregating cases and cost of the FTX bullet, IMHO, the pointy red tip ain't worth it @ .357 velocities, even outta a carbine. The 158gr XTP-FP or any 158gr JSP will perform just as well. The FTX does not turn a .357 carbine into a 30-30 and a 158gr bullet will give a tad more penetration, which is what's generally lacking when hunting deer with a .357.

One needs to be aware when picking up .357 range brass, especially if it says Hornady on it, that it may in fact have been Factory Hornady FTX ammo or someone else using trimmed cases shooting FTX bullets. This is a pain in the butt and why I agree with scooter123 that designing a bullet for such a popular caliber that takes a size specific case is foolishness.

I called Hodgon yesterday, and the rep I spoke to gave me a charge of 12.5-14gr of W296 with this bullet in 357 magnum.

I also specifically asked about trim length, and was told that the above numbers specified a trim length of 1.240", or the "short" length that Hornady also specifies.

What an amazing thread!

Seems to me that the uncertainties involved outweigh any possible advantages of these FTX bullets.

I also can't imagine shortening .357 cases below SAAMI specs. This is voodoo reloading. You've really created a wildcat round, once it's out of the SAAMI specs for .357 mag. It's something else.

__________________
USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

I have seen the difference the FTX bullet makes in a 45.70 and would do whatever it requires to use them. I would imagine the difference is the same in all the calibers offered.

__________________
KMAG YOYO

In a revolver the OAL isn't really going to be a crucial issue, right?

With a handgun muzzel velocity range of 800-2200 fps(!!!!) loading in a .357 mag case to similar velocities as other 140gr. jacketed bullets (i.e. the XTP) should not pose a problem, eh?

I would imagine 1200 fps with a 140gr. FTX would do the required deed @ 50ft on a deer or a two-legged target?

In a revolver, COAL is definitely an issue. You cannot have the bullet nose sticking out beyond the front face of the cylinder. The whole idea of the LeveRevolution bullets is that the bullet ogive radius is greater, making the shape more aerodynamic. Also, the distance between the bullet crimping cannelure and the bullet tip is greater than for other bullets, therefore, the case must be shortened a little to get the proper COAL, assuming the case mouth is to be crimped into the bullet cannelure. I have no idea what the maximum COAL limit your rifle will tolerate, but if a cartridge with the case mouth crimped into the cannelure can be chambered completely from the magazine without resistance, without trimming the .357 case shorter, there should be no problems. If it won't, I'd simply load the bullets into .38 Special cases. You can duplicate about any .357 load in a .38 Special case, and the best powders to use would be 2400, 296, or H110.

Please don't misinterpret my 1st sentence: of course OAL is a consideration in any firearm, but as long as the completed round is not TOO LONG for the cylinder of a revolver there certainly be no problem vis-a-vis it "chambering".

In a previous thread about loading the 140gr. FTX in a 686-1 duckloads loaded in a standard case to an COL of 1.620 with no problems.

I would opine that a loading a bit longer than that of any factory standard .357 magnum round is not likely to cause any problems case volume-wise, depending on the powder used. For example the spread from starting (6.5) to maximum (7.7) loads for an 140gr. XTP using W231 (and a COL of 1.590) is 1.2gr., and this represents approximately 16%.

Cheers!

p.s. I don't know just how long the cylinder actually is on my Model 15 but I bet it is probably (?) longer than a factory .357 round (which won't fit, of course, since the case is too long)... Out to the shop with the micrometer!

i was thinking about loading a few of these up w/some rl-7 in a 358win rifle for varmint loads. any thoughts on that?

My feeling is that the LeverRevolution buys you very little gain unless you are going for long range. At typical hunting ranges for most hunters, you will do as well with ordinary factory loads.

Since my posts back in 2014 I've picked up two rifles in 357 Magnum and a Dan Wesson revolver in 357 Magnum. With my model 620 that gives me a sampling of a variety of 357 Magnums and I can report that an overall length of 1.620 inch with the Hornady FTX bullet functions perfectly in all of the. So, I do NOT and will NOT every trim my 357 Magnum cases for the 140 grain Hornady FTX.

I've also experimented with the FTX bullets and would urge anyone looking into this bullet to take a look at the Youtube videos on performance testing with this bullet. Hint, it's NOT good.

Having loaded with this bullet I now consider them to only be suitable for plinking. Because even in full length cases the available powder volume is limited. Best I've been able to achieve with a full case (14.5 gr.) of H110 is 1500 fps from the 20 inch barrel on my Winchester 92. Compare that to the 1775 fps from a 17.5 gr. charge of H110 with the 140 grain XTP and you'll understand why I am NOT impressed with the Hornady FTX. Accuracy with the FTX from my Winchester is distinctly Ho-Hum at an average of 1 3/4 inches at 50 yards. In comparison the 140 grain bullet will shoot to 7/8 inch at the same distance.

So, if you want to shoot with a bullet that limits powder capacity and thus velocity, either fails to expand or fragments on impact, with less than optimum accuracy you are free to give them a try. As for myself, I find the older XTP line of bullets to be much more accurate and much more useful and trustworthy in a Hunting application.

BTW, my favorite XTP in 357 Magnum is the 158 grain version with the 140 running a close second. Out of either the Winchester or Rossi M92 the accuracy with a load tuned to the rifle is superb. I also have a reflex sight mounted on my 620 and off a sandbag rest for my hands both bullets will shoot groups under 1.5 inches at 25 yards. Fact is they'll probably shoot under 1/2 inch but I'd have to mount a scope on the 620 and spend many weeks practicing to determine that.

the NEED to trim 357 MAG brass to 1.240" also has me troubled
I have decided to buy some factory LeveRevolution ammo and check out how THEY do it - I'll be back with an update after the ammo arrives

Before you go cutting and hacking all those good 357 cases......

you might want to shoot one box of Buffalo Bore 180gr lead
that goes 1851 fps out of a 18.5" barrel and see what it does at 100 yards.

I have Lymans 49th and there is some info on:

Unique
True Blue
H110
IMR 4227

I use 2400 from about 12 grains to 16.5 gr max. When I get over 15 grains in my 686 they get pretty smackum-jackum.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Heck, American Eagle brand 158 grain soft points chronographed at 1800 fps from my 20" rifle barrel. Of course, it is a Henry, so that probably gained me another 40 or 50 fps.

This doesn't surprise me at all. Out of my 6 inch Dan Wesson this load will clock 1230-1250 fps. I'll admit to not testing this particular load out of my 20 inch Winchester but based on past experience I would expect velocities in the 1700-1800 fps range. Heck, my *****cat load of just 14.5 grains of H110 with a 158 grain Hornady XTP comes in at 1615 fps and the accuracy is "just marvelous" at a tick under 1 MOA with a rear tang peep sight and a good spotter calling my shots.

IIRC, the box lists 1240 fps for the MV in a revolver length barrel.

I was looking to develop a hunting load using one of the slower magnum powders and the Hornady 158 grain XTP bullet. When I discovered how these American Eagle SPs performed, I stashed the unfired rest of the box in my hunting backpack and called it good.

FWIW, I know a lot of people who refuse to shoot Buffalo Bore ammo in their weapons. Those things are smoking hot.

Having read all of the comments and load data for this bullet, I'm wondering if the other trim length could have something to do with loading for the Lever Action Rifle's.
I have a Single Shot Henry 357 Mag. Rifle that I will be loading the 140gr FTX bullets for using H110 and I am thinking about trying both C.O.L. sizes to see if it makes a difference.

Wondering how your experiment turned out...?

Please advise, and THANKS!

Plus a picture to let every one know what is going on with the OAL of the cases involved.

Stay safe.

I am loading some FTX 140gr on regular brass, I have 1.290 and slightly shorter 1.274 nickel.
I will shoot them on both S&W 686 6" and Rossi lever action with 14gr of H110 and report here the results.
Data for H110 and FTX is very rare, but I don't want to buy another powder (if I can find any) because I do like H110 which is perfect for all other bullets. I have found a min of 13.8 and a max of 15