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  #1  
Old 02-26-2014, 09:22 PM
cpatbay cpatbay is offline
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Default Reloading 357 Mag with 200 gr Lead Bullets

I am just going to start reloading some 357 Mag with Cast Performance 200gr. WLNGC .358. Could someone share the min and max loadings using Alliant 2400 and Unique? Thanks.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:25 PM
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This guy has info on 231 and 296 powders. Not exactly what you are looking for but info on 200g 357mag is pretty slim.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:47 PM
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Yes, they are indeed hard to come by.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:00 PM
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Going out to look for "Big foot", huh ?

Sorry I could not help myself.

4227 filled to maximum might be the way to go with that hunk of lead.......

There is a fine line between "Fast and "slow" type powders when you get into this range of bullets.
Gas checks also add to the pressure of the loads.

This load is out of a 6" tube or longer....right ?
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:04 PM
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Yeah, Big Foot and a few Grizzles! 8)

I intend to use these on my 6" S&W but may run some through my 2.6" snubby just for kicks! Literally!

I only have H110 and A2400. That's why the choice of powder.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:23 PM
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From the 1996 Alliant manual(Because that is the one immediately at hand!) for 200 gr. LRN, probably Lyman 358430, 10.0 gr. 2400 at 32,800 psi and 1,245 FPS from a 5.6" test barrel. Alliant only lists maximum. Reduce it as much as 20% if you want.

I chronographed the 10 gr. 2400/358430 years ago in an 8 3/8" Model 27 but apparently didn't record it in my log. It wasn't too fast as I recall. Need to change the rear sight blade to get the sights to adjust to zero.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:31 PM
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1245 for a 200................. not too shabby at all !!

That should make the muzzle flip .......
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:33 PM
Pocketfisherman Pocketfisherman is offline
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FYI, you will likely need a gas checked cast bullet with those powders to eliminate leading.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
1245 for a 200................. not too shabby at all !!

That should make the muzzle flip .......
Hopefully not flipped by 180 degrees!
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocketfisherman View Post
FYI, you will likely need a gas checked cast bullet with those powders to eliminate leading.
Cast Performance .358 200 gr is gas checked.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:16 PM
J35 J35 is offline
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Might check the IHMSA site

IHMSA Forum ? Index page

-----J
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Old 02-27-2014, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocketfisherman View Post
FYI, you will likely need a gas checked cast bullet with those powders to eliminate leading.
Where did this information come from? It is hogwash and absolutely incorrect. From no less an authority than Wayne Gibbs himself : "If a bullet is sized correctly and the lubricant is proper for the application, a gas check is absolutely unnecessary for any velocity less than approximately 2000 fps." This was told to me in a telephone conversation I had with the man about 12 years ago.

You might have heard of Wayne Gibbs; he was half of the Hensley and Gibbs mould business...
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:38 AM
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Here I thought Wayne Gibbs was with the Bee Gees.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:28 AM
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The reason there is little data for a 200 gr. bullet in a .357 magnum may have something to do with the OAL being too long if seated in a cannelure.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:57 PM
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I have loaded Lyman's 358315, a GC 200gr RN for the .35 Rem., into .38 Spl cases over 12.0gr 2400 for my .38-44 HD. OAL was no problem in the HD cylinder when crimped over the front driving band. Substantial recoil, mediocre accuracy, never loaded another box since.

Larry
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Old 02-28-2014, 02:18 PM
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Groo here
Check with Accurate arms.
The AA1680 will work just fine.
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Old 03-01-2018, 07:45 PM
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Hey all:
Back in the dat, the US of A army used the 200 gr. lead in the 38 S&W against the MOros....the 32-20 of the day didn't stop them. The 200 gr. slug TUMBLES in the 38 S&W load. Worked good!
HMMMMM....
Maybe this would be a good self defense load in the 38 SPECIAL, velocity of 700-800 fps!?
Back in the day, this 200 gr. lead was a POLICE round, too!
HMMM...
smokem
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Old 03-01-2018, 08:11 PM
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Even though the 200gr slug can be pushed at a respectable velocity in a .357(even at 1000fps,considering the small diameter it must punch quite deep),I doubt the normal twist of the S&W or Ruger will stabilize it enough to give good accuracy.That might be the reason why you can't find much data for it.
For my part,I'm satisfied with the 166gr slug my mould yields.And there's lots of data for loading 170 and 180gr slugs to start developping my loads from.
But if it's your cup of tea,be my guest.Afterall,experimenting is what makes this sport interesting.Just play it safe.
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Old 03-01-2018, 08:23 PM
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I have that load a+ at 50 yards open sights with my 19-3 long barrel but with 4227. Will try to post target when I get home. I got the info from the Lee manual and it works in mine. The target will be here if I can find it.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX OK I FOUND THEM. I did find a 2400 load but at 25y. The 4227 made the same bullet shoot higher with the same bullet at 50 yards which I like with less recoil. National went out of business but I still have a few. ALL 200 grain bullets with a different shape will not group the same. I like Unique but it would not group with this bullet for me. Maybe a different shape 200 will work.
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Old 03-01-2018, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokem View Post
Hey all:
Back in the dat, the US of A army used the 200 gr. lead in the 38 S&W against the MOros....the 32-20 of the day didn't stop them. The 200 gr. slug TUMBLES in the 38 S&W load. Worked good!
HMMMMM....
Maybe this would be a good self defense load in the 38 SPECIAL, velocity of 700-800 fps!?
Back in the day, this 200 gr. lead was a POLICE round, too!
HMMM...
smokem
The 200 grain .38 S&W load was never used by the US military; it was a British military round from the WW II era. They eventually changed the 200 grain lead bullet to a somewhat lighter jacketed bullet.

The .32-20 was also never a US military round.

The cartridge that failed against the Moros in the Philippines was the .38 Long Colt with a 150 grain bullet. This led to the re-introduction of the .45 Colt for military use and finally to the adoption of the .45 ACP and the 1911 pistol.
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:07 PM
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Here I thought Wayne Gibbs was with the Bee Gees.
I never knew he was a gun guy, let alone reloader.
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Old 03-03-2018, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
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You might have heard of Wayne Gibbs; he was half of the Hensley and Gibbs mould business...
Which half?
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Old 03-03-2018, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawker Man View Post
This guy has info on 231 and 296 powders. Not exactly what you are looking for but info on 200g 357mag is pretty slim.
Reloading .357 Magnum Page
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Originally Posted by cpatbay View Post
I only have H110 and A2400. That's why the choice of powder.
Well, since
1) H110 is one of the powders you have, and
2) the link above includes a recipe for loading with W296, and
3) H110 and W296 are the same thing

It looks like your answer is to be found at that link that Hawker Man posted.....
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Old 03-03-2018, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellybean View Post
The reason there is little data for a 200 gr. bullet in a .357 magnum may have something to do with the OAL being too long if seated in a cannelure.
They will fit in a 19 but a 27 cylinder is shorter. I also had to modify my seating die to keep from putting marks on top of the nose of the bullet.

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Old 05-08-2020, 03:53 PM
Model1567 Model1567 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokem View Post
Hey all:
Back in the dat, the US of A army used the 200 gr. lead in the 38 S&W against the MOros....the 32-20 of the day didn't stop them. The 200 gr. slug TUMBLES in the 38 S&W load. Worked good!
HMMMMM....
Maybe this would be a good self defense load in the 38 SPECIAL, velocity of 700-800 fps!?
Back in the day, this 200 gr. lead was a POLICE round, too!
HMMM...
smokem
Actually, that would be the .38 LC round, not the S&W and certainly not the S&W Special round.
.38 LC pushed a 150 gr. bullet to a MV of something like 750-800 ft./sec.
The Moros wrapped their chests in wet leather, tightly. The bullets bounced off like they were shooting steel.
The Army's answer to that problem was to return to the .45 Colt chambering for the New Service revolver.
It was the ENGLISH that loaded 200 gr. bullets into the .38 S&W round, during WWII.
The infamous ".38-200", it was a like a mini .455 Webley round.
The Enfield #2 was the gun it was chambered for. This was at a time when the Enfield was replacing the larger Webley Mk.VI.
The Enfield round was also farily enemic, but the Brits found out heavy bullets moving at moderate speeds were more accurate and tended to do more damage to their intended "targets" than lighter bullets travelling faster via the 1905 British Army tests.
....this gives creedence to a 200 gr. .38 special / .357 mag load as being highly effective.
Load for accuracy, instead of power, and let the big heavy bullet do all the work.
I would shoot (sorry) for around 1100 MV with a 200 gr. bullet.
This should yield a ME of about 537.5. Very close to the original .357 load, but the heavier bullet will carry much more momentum as it passes through heavy clothing and bone, thus creating a more destructive (and deeper!) wound channel.
The heavier bullet will also carry more energy out over longer shots.

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Old 05-08-2020, 08:42 PM
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So Wayne Hensley sang with the Bee Gee's ??? I thought they were all brothers ?
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Old 05-08-2020, 10:53 PM
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...say the BIG Gee.
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Old 05-09-2020, 09:03 AM
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I have some 200gr lead with GC. I think Cast Performance. Stroked with 12.5gr H110 I was getting around 1300 FPS out of a 8 3/8”Model 686 and around 1250 FPS with my 8 3/8” Pre 27. It’s a handful but a good hog hunting load. I’ve since changed to 180gr Coated Lead from Missouri Bullets. Cleaner and more accurate at 50 yards
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Old 05-09-2020, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMSgt View Post
Which half?
Stop it. I don't want the mods to close this thread.
It's got some interesting stuff.
(How did those Moros breathe with their chests tightly wrapped in wet leather?)

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Old 05-09-2020, 10:50 AM
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Chic Gaylord suggested in his 1960 book Handgunner's Guide, that .38 special cases Unique powder and hard-cast 200 grain bullets be used for a similar load.

He also emphasized that it was for heavyweight revolvers only.
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Old 05-09-2020, 10:54 AM
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USE THE DATA BELOW AT YOUR OWN RISK, sneak up on loads using chrono and all safe loading practices.

Here are some chrono results:

The 200gr Leadheads listed below is visually identical to the Cast Performance 200gr

Labradar Muzzle Velocity (familiarization run)
60 Deg F
S&W M66-8 2.75" .357 Mag

180gr Buff Bore …………………………………………………………………………….. 1,312 fps avg ( 6 fps ES) -- two rounds
185gr LFNGC (Beartooth), 15.0gr Lil'Gun, CCI 400 New Starline.. 1,228 fps avg (14 fps ES) – two rounds
200gr WLNGC (leadheads), 13.4gr H110, Fed 205, New Starline.. 1,102 fps avg ( 4 fps ES) – two rounds
200gr WLNGC (leadheads), 14.4gr H110, Fed 205, New Starline.. 1,155 fps avg ( 2 fps ES) – two rounds
(purported to be the “Doubletap” load info)
200gr WLNGC (leadheads) handload with Lil Gun ………………………. 1,266 fps avg ( 2 fps ES) -- two rounds
Load data not given -- maybe too much of a good thing. Spent cases fell from chambers, and no obvious signs of over pressure. Recoil was heavy. Don't even know if this stabilizes.


Another data point (may or may not be useful)

11.0gr A2400 under the 185gr WLNGC shown above gave 1.140 fps from 5 1/2" Freedom Arms M97 (5 long paces from muzzle (old competion electronics not Labradar) and 75 deg F)

Paul

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Old 05-09-2020, 01:02 PM
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Wayyy back in the day... 195gr loads were listed in .357 Mag data.. Actual weight of a cast bullet depends largely on the alloy used..



2400 should get it moving pretty well..
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Old 05-09-2020, 01:53 PM
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I know this post is a few years old but I have the Lyman 195 mold. A heavy boolit really kicks. I AM BORED so here are a few photos. The 200 national has been the most accurate for me but they went out of business. WINCHESTER used to make a 200 grain bullet. This is a 1983 photo in the handbook.
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Old 05-10-2020, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDub View Post
Wayyy back in the day... 195gr loads were listed in .357 Mag data.. Actual weight of a cast bullet depends largely on the alloy used..



2400 should get it moving pretty well..
Looks like Herco is the speed demon there.
What is the asterisk for? Max load?
I like that Unique "accuracy" load. 942MV @ 195 gr. = 384ME
Good power and likely a mild shooter....and...accurate. -b
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  #35  
Old 05-10-2020, 11:13 AM
RDub RDub is offline
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What is the asterisk for?

It means compressed powder charge.
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  #36  
Old 05-10-2020, 01:53 PM
Model1567 Model1567 is offline
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Thanks. =)
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