Just Left Another Reloading Group

[blujax01]

I had been asked to join and it was fun until some folks started asking for others to "just shoot me a photo of the Speer loads on 40 cal - I don't want to buy the whole book" and pictures started showing up.

I tried to explain, in the most basic of terms, about copyright laws, and how this was theft, etc.

I may as well have tried to explain astrophysics to a houseplant.

I was vilified from all angles, told I had no idea what I was talking about, why bother with a bunch of useless rules when we can get stuff for free, "Obviously this guy has never heard of a library book" and on and on. This "Reloading Room" was a nothing more than a place for a bunch of cheap lazy moochers.

Anyway, I just want to let you folks know how lucky I feel to be here.

Carry on ...

[CatSnipah]

As a true nerd, you had me at teaching astrophysics to a houseplant.

[Nevada Ed]

Got any pictures ??

[Maximumbob54]

I was worried you let someone borrow some gear!!!

[Mike, SC Hunter]

Nobody in their right mind would use loading data posted on the internet. Any loader should always have manuals on hand........That is if they value their eyes & fingers.

[gregintenn]

Originally Posted by Mike, SC Hunter

Nobody in their right mind would use loading data posted on the internet. Any loader should always have manuals on hand........That is if they value their eyes & fingers.

I am eager to learn from the expertise of others, both here and on other forums, but I will always compare their suggestions to published data before trying suggested loads.

[jtcarm]

Originally Posted by blujax01

a place for a bunch of cheap lazy moochers.

Anyway, I just want to let you folks know how lucky I feel to be here.

Carry on ...

None of that around here.

Hey, what does your Blue Book say about...

[QuickDrawMcGraw]

Holy Moly' ... Me and my buddy's on my other firearm's
and reloading forums share published & copyrighted info
all the time, .. that's what friends are for*

~ Don

[jonesy814]

So what about when someone comes on the forum and asks for info about their gun. Someone on here will look it up in their SCSW and tell them when the gun was shipped. Is the person asking for info a cheap mooch because they didn't buy the book to look it up themselves?

[Rule3]

BLUE,

Here is a quote from part of a E mail I had going with my NRA instructor. He has been a school teacher is whole life and is NRA certified instructor in every category. Been doing it for many years (we are members of the same range/club.

Taken out of context we discussed several other things.

His words not mine

"The NRA Reloading classes are broken into Metallic cartridge and Shot shell courses. Each of them run about 8 hours and do a pretty good job of covering the basics. I usually run one or two weekend "seminars" each year presenting both topics as well as an introduction into bullet casting. It is a HUGH amount of work involving setting up presses, organizing equipment and providing supplies. It has usually been difficult to get enough students to pay for the use of classroom facilities. It seems as though most guys who are considering reloading believe they can get all the information they need from a few gun magazines or online websites. With a few exceptions, the ones who will actually attend a class are often total "klutzes" who can and will bugger up your equipment in very innovative and creative ways. I sometimes spend as much time in the "hands on" portion providing first aid for bleeding fingers and clearing stuck/jammed cases as I do demonstrating. I do wonder how they make out after leaving the class with a false sense of confidence since only about 30% of them actually paid attention and listened to anything.

As you know, reloading is a "detail oriented" activity. Few guys even read directions until the darn thing doesn't work. Most are not good at details and don't understand the physics behind the whole process. This has become even more critical as reloading components are difficult to obtain necessitating substitutions and less-than-ideal combinations. I was at the club range a couple of weeks ago when one of the shooters experienced a Ruger LCP "KaBOOM" where the barrel and slide split. He was a brand-new reloader who bought a Dillon progressive but didn't have a clue. He obviously resented my interest and was packing the damaged gun away like nothing had happened. Lucky for him, he wasn't hurt except for a stinging hand. From a quick look as his fired brass, I'd guess he was way over pressure. This is a tough way to learn but from a friend at FDLE a fairly common one recently. They had investigated more than 400 firearms "incidents" involving reloaded ammo in 2013. Keep in mind those are the ones where they were called in to investigate which means someone went to the hospital!

So, there is a real need for someone like yourself to teach reloading properly. The difficult part is to convince students they need to get formal instruction and pay attention when they attend."

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by Rule3

BLUE,

Few guys even read directions until the darn thing doesn't work. Most are not good at details and don't understand the physics behind the whole process. This has become even more critical as reloading components are difficult to obtain necessitating substitutions and less-than-ideal combinations.[/I]

A lot of them have acquired the nickname "Stumpy"

[gwpercle]

I value my reloading manuals more than any other reloading "tools". Suggestions are taken from others but always verified in a published source. Why some feel it a waste to purchase "books" and everything on the net has to be better is beyond my comprehension.
I discovered years ago that the reloading Gods do not suffer fools gladly.
Gary....old school reloader

[rwsmith]

You have indeed come to the right place. Welcome.

[forestswin]

Originally Posted by blujax01

Anyway, I just want to let you folks know how lucky I feel to be here.

Carry on ...

seriously bluejax, we are lucky to have you and others that contribute so much and make this a pretty darn good forum

now considering all the folks in that reloading group, your single stage experiment and the ones mentioned by Rule's NRA guy
do you think that most of those just starting out should use a single stage or a progressive?

[blujax01]

Forestwin, an astute former member here once said that when it came right down to it, for some folks the choice of a progressive over a single stage only made the inevitable ending come sooner and more efficiently.

[Rule3]

I do believe Forest made a funny!

[bedbugbilly]

Hmmm . . . . I'm not afraid to "share" things as that is what forums are all about . . . sharing information/experiences. And . . I have asked plenty of questions on my Smiths on this site and folks have been very helpful in supplying information about 'em. But, I kind of consider that a little bit different than making copies of printed material that is copyrighted. (Maybe it's the former "teacher" in me.).

We all "share" information about loads, etc. . . . and I have asked for information such as this on this and other forums . . BUT . . only as a "guide". I ALWAYS check my own manuals and reference material to compare . . . that's what "safety" is all about. Butn then I'm "old" physically and was raised "old school".

Too many people . . especially younger ones . . want to take short cuts these days . . get along without having to buy manuals and reference materials. OMG! They might have to actually work to find something and actually have to read or spend their own money on reference materials. I look at it this way . . . I'll share any of my experiences with anyone else - that's how we all "learn and expand our knowledge". But . . I refuse to make copies of copyrighted material . . which is someone's hard work and efforts . . and pass it on for free. If you can afford to own a gun, reload and shoot and pay for gas to drive to the range . . you can afford to buy your own manual or manuals which should be on your bench from the "get go".

[MarkDozier]

What do you mean I am suppose to buy manuals. I just throw powder in a case stuff a bullet in it and hope it works.

[SMSgt]

I taught my self to reload and I've still got all seven fingers.

[novalty]

Originally Posted by forestswin

now considering all the folks in that reloading group, your single stage experiment and the ones mentioned by Rule's NRA guy
do you think that most of those just starting out should use a single stage or a progressive?

Oh no you didn't

[forestswin]

Originally Posted by Rule3

I do believe Forest made a funny!

Rule
I've been over in the lounge having fun with that "annoyed by thread drift" thread and running up my post count. I have to get back on track and find something to analyze.

I do like it here.

Novalty - I guess I did, but its only for a quick laugh, besides I'm considering a progressive soon

[Twoboxer]

I've bought and have 5 reloading books in the last two years. I believe I have bought enough books. Powder mfgers have their data published online. If those sources can't answer the question I have, I'm not afraid to ask.

I don't think most folks mind answering those kinds of questions. But answering someone who has bought nothing and/or not researched the powder mfgers online is a bridge too far for me.

[Berserker]

Originally Posted by Rule3

BLUE,

Here is a quote from part of a E mail I had going with my NRA instructor. He has been a school teacher is whole life and is NRA certified instructor in every category. Been doing it for many years (we are members of the same range/club.

Taken out of context we discussed several other things.

His words not mine

"The NRA Reloading classes are broken into Metallic cartridge and Shot shell courses. Each of them run about 8 hours and do a pretty good job of covering the basics. I usually run one or two weekend "seminars" each year presenting both topics as well as an introduction into bullet casting. It is a HUGH amount of work involving setting up presses, organizing equipment and providing supplies. It has usually been difficult to get enough students to pay for the use of classroom facilities. It seems as though most guys who are considering reloading believe they can get all the information they need from a few gun magazines or online websites. With a few exceptions, the ones who will actually attend a class are often total "klutzes" who can and will bugger up your equipment in very innovative and creative ways. I sometimes spend as much time in the "hands on" portion providing first aid for bleeding fingers and clearing stuck/jammed cases as I do demonstrating. I do wonder how they make out after leaving the class with a false sense of confidence since only about 30% of them actually paid attention and listened to anything.

As you know, reloading is a "detail oriented" activity. Few guys even read directions until the darn thing doesn't work. Most are not good at details and don't understand the physics behind the whole process. This has become even more critical as reloading components are difficult to obtain necessitating substitutions and less-than-ideal combinations. I was at the club range a couple of weeks ago when one of the shooters experienced a Ruger LCP "KaBOOM" where the barrel and slide split. He was a brand-new reloader who bought a Dillon progressive but didn't have a clue. He obviously resented my interest and was packing the damaged gun away like nothing had happened. Lucky for him, he wasn't hurt except for a stinging hand. From a quick look as his fired brass, I'd guess he was way over pressure. This is a tough way to learn but from a friend at FDLE a fairly common one recently. They had investigated more than 400 firearms "incidents" involving reloaded ammo in 2013. Keep in mind those are the ones where they were called in to investigate which means someone went to the hospital!

So, there is a real need for someone like yourself to teach reloading properly. The difficult part is to convince students they need to get formal instruction and pay attention when they attend."

The Cabelas by me had the class a couple years ago. I thought about it, then say the price. It is probably worth it. But it is not cheap.

Also Cabelas sells reloading supplies, so I would think maybe they would kick in a little, to get you in the store, nothing else to buy junk. Plus I would think when you do it in volume, the rates would drop. Older I get, I am slowly coming around to not being so cheap though.



As for the topic at hand, I kinda think you are a weenie. But I wasn't on the site to see how bad it was.

[Berserker]

I got a Lyman, Speer and One Books in all the cartridges I load. But there are alot of bullets out there, I wouldn't feel guilty asking someone what there manual has a specific brand. Chances are I got something I can work up from anyways. But I like to hear from the manufacturer.

[novalty]

Originally Posted by forestswin

Novalty - I guess I did, but its only for a quick laugh, besides I'm considering a progressive soon

Should I start calling you, Darth Forestwin?

[fredj338]

Well the copy right thing is kinda bs IMO. I can loan you the book but not post a pic or make a copy?? Fwiw, most copy right laws only affect copy for profit. I think for many noob reloaded, it's more about being lazy than cheap.

[oberon]

I have a fair assortment of loading books. Some more recent, some from the golden era, some dating to pre-war. And a short stack of powder manufacturers' information.
The old literature sometimes offers loads that I wouldn't touch with a 15' pole. The similar bullet & powder in a more contemporary reference becomes tame in comparison. That seems to be how it goes.
I reckon there is modern awareness for liability and such, and so , the loads get further & further into the safety margin.
It should be our responsibility to work up safe loads in the first place.

[Andy Griffith]

Manuals???

We don't need no stink'n manuals.


All joking aside, I once knew a feller at a local club that dipped his cases into a bowl of powder, leveled them off and then loaded a bullet.

Did I mention that he stretched the frame of that Blackhawk he was shooting those loads in?

[dla]

Old people hang onto their books believing that the data contained therein is precious and wholly unavailable elsewhere. Younger folks have moved beyond that pile of paper worship. Fondle your books if you want.

I don't endorse copyright infringement, but posting a load by typing it in a public forum is NOT copyright infringement. You don't copyright a formula, only the publication.

I've been reloading since the late 60's. I don't own any reloading manuals anymore. Times have changed folks.

[Rule3]

Perhaps you do not need the manuals for "formulas" or Recipes but manuals do contain much more information in the beginning chapters that is very useful.

If it wasn't for the manuals nobody could have copied the data to print on the internet. Then all you would have is the Powder companies data.

[Jboutfishn]

To hand load without documentation is not prudent. I have been loading for 60 years, loading for many different cartridges from the .223 to the 470 NE and the 9MM to the 460S&W mag. I have always used a single stage press and recently started using a progressive for the high volume pistol rounds. I keep a "little" book on everything I load for and when trying some new loads I consult one of my 5 manuals and go on line and check on specific powder companies data. All loads are checked against book loads with a Shooting Chrony.

Sharing loads can be very dangerous as one never knows what firearm your pet loads will be fired in. An example of this is my pet load for my 300 Win Mag. It has a ton of freebore and to get great accuracy I seat the bullet with an OAL that would be dangerous is many rifles. This OAL also allows a higher powder charge dangerous in many rifles.

Bottom line, be careful, study the manuals, check and double check, have fun!

[Nevada Ed]

......"Did I mention that he stretched the frame of that Blackhawk he was shooting those loads in? "..............


He must have been hard of hearing ??

I told him..................
Hodgdon, not IMR powder!!

[Gunhacker]

Originally Posted by Mike, SC Hunter

Nobody in their right mind would use loading data posted on the internet. Any loader should always have manuals on hand........That is if they value their eyes & fingers.

I bet the houseplant would... after it's afternoon Astrophysics lesson.

[Berserker]

Originally Posted by Jboutfishn

To hand load without documentation is not prudent. !

I think what he is saying is they want people to scan it. Also if you know the person, and he says my manual says for ____ use starting load ____, max of _____, and it was inline with your other manuals. I wouldn't be afraid.

I think we all have manuals. But not every manual covers everything. I could just go by my Lymans JHP or SWC, but if another manual lists the exact part # from the manufacturer, I use that. I compare it to the generic stuff on Lyman or the powder companies website too.

[geodimeter]

Personally from a liability standpoint I feel it's fine to refer someone to a manual or a website and let them get the info themselves. Providing the actual data could possibly get you a summons if they blow themselves up.

[pokute]

Originally Posted by geodimeter

Personally from a liability standpoint I feel it's fine to refer someone to a manual or a website and let them get the info themselves. Providing the actual data could possibly get you a summons if they blow themselves up.

Sobering words. I generally only post a pet load if it's a published load or WELL under maximum, but now I think even that is potential trouble, since who's to say the person suing you didn't load something completely different... You'd still be stuck defending yourself. Looks like I'll be deleting some posts!!

[Rule3]

Read the disclaimer on the top of this forum. I do not like to post load data either but if I or others do, I believe it is at your own risk.

There is a lot of junk on the internet in general. It would be pretty hard to sue someone based on "I read it on the internet"
Maybe Al Gore

READ the >>>> DISCLAIMER

[Engineer1911]

blujax01: Quote: "This "Reloading Room" was a nothing more than a place for a bunch of cheap lazy moochers to explain astrophysics to a houseplant. "

Where did you find this House Plant Forum? Why did you join? Now, I'm really confused.

[Rule3]

Originally Posted by Engineer1911

blujax01: Quote: "This "Reloading Room" was a nothing more than a place for a bunch of cheap lazy moochers to explain astrophysics to a houseplant. "

Where did you find this House Plant Forum? Why did you join? Now, I'm really confused.

He didn't exactly say it that way. You took parts of two different paragraphs

You are confused, what kind of Plants where they??

Dave, Dave?????

[smokindog]

I liked the Hornady book so much I bought it twice OK, I had an iTunes gift card I won at work and used it for the electronic copy so I could look up a powder when and if I saw something with the dust bunnies on the shelves!!!!!