I'm going to load some defensive ammo to be used in my 1911 or my 625. I'm looking at 230 gr. Hornady XTP jacketed hollow points. Is this a good defensive bullet? Is there anything else out there that would be better? So far I've only loaded lead and know very little about jacketed bullets.

Any help would be appreciated.

__________________
That's just somebody talkin.

Do yourself a huge legal favor and only use factory assembled ammo for self defense. If in the unfortunate circumstance you need to employ your self defense ammo against a perpetrator, a public prosecutor will have a field day with your reloads in a court and a liberal minded jury/judge. Yes, Hornaday HP's work real good. Especially when used in their critical defense loads. Use your reloads for the range/hunting etc. Just sayin. Jay.

That makes sense. I never thought about it, one question however. Those seem to be popular bullets. Are people using those for the range?

__________________
That's just somebody talkin.

XTPs for the range? Yep! If you don't, you won't know whether or not your pistol likes them. Stick with commercial for Self Defense.

The Hornady XTP is an exceptional projectile

Most any of the top 4 or 5 projectiles will serve you well. I am also quite fond of the Winchester 230JHP as well as the Gold Dot. The Golden Saber is a bit longer than I like.

You would be hard pressed to see any measurable difference between these when loaded to the same specifications.

Hornady XTP are very good. If you can find them, Speer Gold Dot are an excellent alternative with a more rounded ogive for better feeding. The maximum OAL is less for an hollow point than for FMJ bullets. I load XTPs to an OAL of 1.230" (FMJ to 1.260"), otherwise they may lodge in the rifling if the throat is short (e.g., Kahr PM45 and Springfield XDs). A "plunk" test with a dismounted barrel should pass if the bullet doesn't stick, even a little, if pressed into the chamber with your thumb.

Prosecutors or the plaintiff's lawyers in a civil suit can try anything, but a good defense lawyer could easily dismiss allegations that your handloads were especially deadly. Commercial SD ammunition is loaded much hotter than most would dare when hand loading. Police carry hollow points to minimize the chance of over penetration, not necessarily because they are more deadly.

Commercial ammunition is preferred for self defense because it performs better and is arguably more reliable.

Would you be kind enough to point out just one time when this happened since Concealed Carry has become so common. A link to the news article would be great.

Don't tell us so and so told you not to do it or you heard about it at the water cooler or you heard that your cousins, friends, brothers coworker had this happen to him, don't say some writer mentioned a case he heard about in tiny town USA in the 70s, show us an article. Just one article. Give us a link to the court case.

Urban Legend

Colt SAA, you can call it an urban legend all you want, but if memory serves, no less an authority than Massad Ayoob himself recommended using factory stuff in your SD piece. And he oughta know...

And do you remember the drunk teenager that was shot in Louisiana years ago with the only handgun the home owner had? It was a 44Magnum, and the prosecution team sliced and diced the homeowner for using too much handgun.

Its been awhile and I'm pretty new here

reloads and the law

__________________
Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

Why should he know?

Has he been prosecuted for using handloads in a shooting? NO

Has he been involved in a case of someone being prosecuted for using handloads in a shooting? NO

His article proposing this behavior references a couple of cases he heard about back in the 70s. Personally, I need something more concrete than that

Show us something that has happened since the 10s of millions of Law Abiding US Citizens began carrying under the Shall Issue permit laws that began in 1987.

Doubless, step up to the plate and point us to just a single case in the last few decades.

Yep, must have been a month or so so it's time for this ageless topic to come up again. I am making popcorn and gonna read up on the best loads for Bear defense.

In 45 ACP they are all good, Problem is finding projectiles.

Even plain old Ball ammo has done it's share of damage over the years.

The factory vs handloads discussion is a bunch of nonsense and never seems to go away.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

What's the matter? Google not work for you? It took me less than ten seconds to find a statement from Ayoob where he says he hopes his article refutes the Urban Legend of "nobody ever getting into trouble in court for using handloads for self defense". Go find it yourself. I am not your "hey boy".

And you are just as wrong as you can be about him never being involved with a court case involving handloads. You don't know what you are talking about.

You might want to read about how Mr. Ayoob got to be the recognized authority he is. And, I might add, he posts from time to time on this forum...

Meanwhile, you might wish to read this: it doesn't state that anyone will go to prison over the use of handloads for SD, but it darned sure makes me think about "what if"... and to me, it just ain't worth the risk.

Handloaded Ammunition: Not a Good Idea for Concealed Carry/Self Defense

The Hornady XTP/HP bullet is extremely accurate in most cases but it's known to be a very tough bullet which works well for hunting ammo. It's also sold as a SD round and I'm sure it expands well as long as you generate the required velocities.

Speer Gold Dot bullets are a good choice and especially their short barrel bullets. Remington Golden Saber bullets have also been around for a long time but they are older technology than the Gold Dot bullets. I happen to like the Winchester Silvertip bullets but they are extremely difficult to find anywhere. They are also older Tech but IMO are still a very good choice.

If you can find them I would buy Speer Gold Dot bullets but if you can't find them the Hornady XTP/HP bullets are a good choice too. (keep the velocities up where they are recommended)

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

The XTP is a great bullet. Gold Dots are highly recommended. I'm not worried about the handload/legal issue.

The xtp is a good Std cup/core bullet. They lays expand, just not to the degree some of the premium stuff, not available to the hand loader. Bullets like te HST, qute a bit better IMO, so why handloading a "lesser" bullet?

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The Hornady 230 XTP is a good bullet for your purpose. I load them for 1911's, Sig 220, and a Glock 21 all with the same loading components. I use AA#5 powder and Unique works well too. There are several good powders for 230 gr. 45ACP loads. I load them to an oal of 1.230" also. They feed fine in all my 45's and magazines. Other good 230gr. bullets often recommended are Speer Gold Dots and I've reloaded Remington 230 BJHP Golden Sabers. The Golden Sabers are very accurate in my pistols. The GS bullets are hard to find today and the Hornady XTP's have been scarce. My only concerns are that it goes bang when I pull a trigger and I actually feel more confident in ammo I load.

if you shoot someone, self defense or no, the least of your problems are what ammo you used.

A slow motion video of the 230g xtp bullet in gell.

Discussion on Simulated Shot Lines - YouTube

Self defense ammo, find out what your local sheriff uses and go with that.

I bought a new Auto ordinance 45 in 1987. I also bought a box of Federal 185 JHP to carry. One time when firing the gun with those Federals, the bullet pushed back into the case, the case split and tied up the gun. NO bang and a bitch of a jam to clear. I carry my own reloads.

I prefer SWC to HP. They feed fine and will do plenty of damage, more than ball.

David

Reloads and the Law. It was all started by some bored Gun Writer in one of the Gun rags. IMO because he wanted to see what suckers that his readers were.

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ONE SINGLE PROSECUTION WHERE RELOADS WERE EVEN MENTIONED DURING THE TRIAL. Never.

So, no need to worry about using reloads during a Self Defense incident. There isn't ANY forensic test that can identify a "reload" from commercial ammunition and all you have to do is Keep Your Mouth Shut about your ammo selection. The simple fact is that you are under no obligation to identify what ammunition you carry. In fact you are under no obligation to do any more than identify yourself and comply with police orders concerning turning over your firearm and possible detention. What you want to be concerned about is the Laws in play in the State where that incident took place and your actions during that incident. Basically, if you have to shoot someone make sure it was really necessary and keep your mouth shut until you have consulted a Lawyer. BTW, any police officer involved in a shooting retains a lawyer before making any statement so remember that tidbit if the police questioning you tell you that you don't need a Lawyer. The Supreme Court has clearly ruled that the Police are under no obligation to be the least bit truthful with you during an investigation and they are NOT on your "side".

This may come as a shock to you, but in a debate it is not the job of the opposing point of view to go out and seek proof for your claims.

As your post indicates, you were unable to find a single case to present to the Forum in support of your argument. Instead you point us to an article where someone told you to do this.

I would also like to see a court case where reloads made any difference in the outcome of a self defense plea - or even if a victim was charged after defending themselves. If in self defense, you hit a guy with a brick, rock or 2x4, would it make a difference? Lots of water fountain kool aid out there with absolutely no facts associated.

There was a guy in AZ, I believe, that used a 1911 10mm for self defense and got 7 years for using too powerful a cal. This isn't exactly the same but I suppose it could be argued that your custom loads are too powerful vs factory.

Just saying

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

My concern with reloads for self-defense is the possibility of producing a defective load. I have a bit more than 50 years of reloading experience and while I can try to give the impression that I'm capable of walking on water, I still screw up on occasion. So, my SD loads are always factory loads.

You won't find a bullet that is "37.4%" more likely to stop an adversary than another competing bullet. Frankly, in .45 ACP, they are all rather ominous-looking. What is most important is the relationship of the bullet shape with the feed ramp of your particular handgun. I have a little test that others might not agree with: I insert a magazine containing the ammunition I plan to use, then I "ride" the slide home to observe how the bullet negotiates the feed ramp. If it consistently feeds, then I go to live fire.

At times, a particular quality bullet just might not get along with a particular quality handgun.

So, if I grab a 30-30 Winchester and shoot someone, i doubt they would send me to jail, but if I use a 10mm I could go to jail. And unless the 10mm has gotten a lot more ooomph, I would say it does not have the terminal that a 30-30 has or if you want, a 30-06. I could easily say, it was what was in my room upstairs when a guy broke in my house. Or better yet, a 12 gauge / the VP told me to use it

no offense, but I'd have to read the court case for that. Even the M1 Carbine, which people bitch about being too weak for hunting deer, I believe that the ballistics are of a 357?

The often quoted "Mas" case came down to an issue of forensics being unable to duplicate the patterns of the reloads, not a matter of using reloads. Unless your state has a law stating (XXX ammo type/load, such as HPs in NJ) is illegal to use, carry what you wish.

And for those who so often quote the reliability of factory ammo, I've never, not once, had to recall my reloads. I've had more factory ammo fails than reloads fail (2-dud primers in the same pack).

I carry a CS45, and I have a 4513TSW by my bed. Both are loaded with Federal Premium Defense .45 165gr Hydra Shok.

Good value bullet. Extensively used & tested. Not the absolute best mind you, but very good. Most 1911's don't have a problem feeding them, but I have read where some guys had to fiddle with the COL a bit. Buy a box, put them together and see what you think. I use the 185gr version quite happily.

PS. Ignore that forum quasi-legal opinion BS - totally meaningless doo-doo that surfaces every time somebody mentions "self-defense".

The often quoted "Mas" case was also about whether the deceased was a victim of murder or suicide, and the rounds were unable to be duplicated, not because they were handloads, but because the husband, on trial for the murder of his wife, claimed he had loaded the bullets used in the gun to different velocities using difference powder charges. It wasn't that they didn't know the powders charges, but that they didn't know which powder charge propelled the killing bullet. The use of handloads did not convict Bias in the first trial, but actually helped to prevent his conviction. Bias was found guilty of killing his wife after 4 trials and the use of handloads made no difference in the decision. How the "Mas" ever got "never use handloads for SD" outta this, is beyond me.


Same here....one reason I load all my own ammo.....to get better ammo than standard factory fodder.

Just as a point of information, this is not correct (as such broad statements often are not). I've worked on cases in which handloaded rounds were mentioned at trial and I have read appellate reports of others. A California statute refers to "reloaded ammunition" and cases are frequently brought under it.

Please, let's all be precise - especially when discussing the law.

__________________
Now go make God proud...

Anything in California does not count...

Please ,Please everyone read the closed thread and especially post #141(Thanks dla!)

reloads and the law

Give it a rest, leave it alone the Horse is very very dead!

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Hey, this is new.

I knew this was around somewhere: a while back I found an OH case in which a guy's use of reloads appears to have cleared him of a killing. Here's a link -

http://statecasefiles.justia.com/doc...?ts=1333466404 (look at ¶ 33)

And here's one where the Feds tried to link a dude to a killing by proving that his guns contained ammo that had been reloaded on the same machine as the one that reloaded the killer ammo! Gardner v. United States, 999 A.2d 55 (D.C. Cir. 2010).

What this shows is that cases are different and turn on different facts. Mas argues for eliminating prospective problematic variables by sticking with factory ammo - as I've said here before, I sometimes carry handloads myself, but I kinda know my way around a courtroom. My advice to my younger brother was to listen to Mas . . .

__________________
Now go make God proud...

M agency uses Speer GDHP's in all calibers. The .45 is 230 gr & works very well in the 1911's quite a few are packing. High quality magazines are a must though for 1911's.

I have Federal HST 230gr for my 625 and HST+p for my G36.

Good price, accurate load, great expansion in FBI testing.

Golden Sabers 185gr +p is my 185gr choice for really violent impact and nasty expansion.

Or upgun to Underwood .45Supers, w/ a stronger spring for the Glock.

Batts

Well, if we go back to the OP's original question it was what is a good bullet. Not the legal ramifications, if there are any.

Bottom line, in a 45 ACP any of the premium bullets mentioned are all fine. Heck you can stay with lead if you want. The LSWC mkes a great defensive round. Lead has been killing people for a long time (not trying to be crass) but what did they use before all the advertizing hype??

Military 1911's all had ball ammo.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

The 45 230 xtp's have given excellent accuracy in all the pistols tried. They can be cheaper than fmj's and more readily available. They were specifically designed for consistent/limited expansion and greater penetration.

Apparently they have also undergone a reshaping/lengthening of the nose, and have not tried any of the new versions yet. Might have to do the hundreds already stocked up on.

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

Again, using handloads will likely never get into the criminal case. However, everything is on the table in the sure to follow civil case. Me, I don't want to give any attorney extra ammunition to sue me. I would use handloads for sd, but it would be very specific reasons behind it, like why my back packing 44mag was filled with reduced vel LHP for sd.
It will always come down to intent. If I have target LSWC loaded in my gun while stopping for milk on the way home from the range, & get involved in a shooting, not much can be made from that. If asked why I hand loaded my sd ammo & the reply is "to make a more deadly round", not gonna go well in the civil court.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

If this is .45ACP then I would opt for a 185gr or at least 200gr bullet for the added velocity to make the HP actually work. I would go so far as to say I would even make them +P loads. And I would run several hundred though the gun to make sure they function 100% before I ever trusted it.

38 posts later proves my point. If the thought of using hand loads for self defense generates a fair amount of internet sensationalism here on this "gun friendly" forum, then it has a lot of potential in a courtroom. Why bother to even go there when premium factory fodder is available. When it comes to self defense, I am a 33 year military veteran with extensive self defense training. I choose to use sound practices and when asked for advise, I give sound, conservative advise. If someone has a hard time with that,,,oh well.

Thanks for the advice. The reason I asked is I've been shooting lead and I want to get away from it to reduce bore fowling. I don't load over 850 fps but for some reason my 625 always leads up. Might be the rifling as my 1911 doesn't do it. Midway is having a sale on these and it looked like a good place to start.

Honestly, I don't care about court room antics regarding ammo. I'm thinking a shooting would almost have to be premeditated for ammo to even come up on the radar. I load all of my ammo and I don't carry something special anticipating having to use it in a self defense situation. Your honor, the powder and primer didn't kill him, it was the bullet. The same type of bullet that LE uses, a controlled expansion JHP.

__________________
That's just somebody talkin.

Good post, OP: seems like you've considered your position well and we can all move on.

Interesting that your 625 always leads - are you using different powders and bullet sources? (I ask because mine leads with some powders/charges and some bullets, but not all.)

For my hollow point handloading: I used to just buy whatever inexpensive, bulk, high-quality, modern, scratch-and-dent hollow points I could find on sale at the usual suspects' outlets, FWIW - Hornady, Speers, etc. I haven't bought any since The (Latest) Great Panic, but I've still got quite a lot around

__________________
Now go make God proud...

I use the same ammo that my 1911 does, 230 LRN, same primer, brass, powder and charge. My 625 has the new improved polygonal rifling like Glocks, HK's and a few others. It isn't lead friendly at all so I'm moving on. All of my lead will be used in my 1911 until it's gone.

Here's a good explanation of why polygonal barrels don't like lead.

Barrels and Bullets: Conventional Versus Polygonal Rifling | Human Events

__________________
That's just somebody talkin.

I shoot lead almost exclusively. IMO, copper fouling is a bigger problem. If your bullets are the correct fit, leading should be minimal.
The fact s&w screwed up a perfectly good rev design by going to poly rifling is beyond me.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I am not familiar with polygon rifling in a M 625?
Where did you find this?

The web site does not indicate anything about polygon rifling?. Actually Glocks are Hexagon which is a polygon.

I have a Pro series JM 625 and it has Deep Broach Rifling. I have not issues with lead and it is a fairly new model.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

I haven't heard his either & can't believe anyone woud do this to a revolver bbl, especially s&w. All my revolvers, regardless of caliber, live on a steady diet of lead bullets. Even for hunting & Sd, not much a jhp can do better than a good LHP IMO.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Your barrel is EDM rifled not polygonal rifled.

This subject comes up from time to time as well

I too have experienced extensive leading in my S&W M&P using commercially cast SWCs loaded to modest velocity. That stuff must be scrubbed out before firing jacketed ammo as the leading, if heavy enough to cause a marked deterioration in accuracy, can result in a serious pressure spike.

I carry Federal personal defense 165 gr hydra shok in my CS45 & 4513TSW. They are alloy frame pistols, and the ammunition is low recoil.
I feel comfortable with it and feel it will do the job.