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Old 07-27-2014, 11:22 PM
Reaper_6A Reaper_6A is offline
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Default H110 load data for 357 Magnum

I have been reloading for a few years now and am pretty proficient at 9mm, .40 cal, 45 ACP, and 223 Rem. However the 357 Magnum is a completely different beast. I have an M&P R8 and am using 158gn Hornady XTP bullets, Starline Brass, CCI Magnum Primers (550), and Hornady H110. I have a medium to hard crimp and feel I am close to achieving optimal performance. If someone could review my data below and tell me what they think I would appreciate it.

The top data is from Magtech 158gn SJSP ammo, bottom is from my reloads.

Magtech 158gn
8 shot avg - 1065 FPS (box claims 1200 from 6in barrel)

Reloads 158gn XTP
8 shot avg - 1043 FPS (Hodgon claims 1418 from 10in barrel)

COAL 1.278 - 1.282
OAL 1.578 - 1.581
Powder 16gn H110
Primer CCI Magnum
Average bullet weight 158.4gn

String 1
964.4
1066
1040
1016
1104
1005
1053
1096

High 1104
Low 964.4
ES 139.6
AV 1043
SD 47.08

Any Advice from someone experienced with reloading using H110 would be appreciated.
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File Type: jpg 357 Data 1.jpg (32.1 KB, 101 views)

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Old 07-27-2014, 11:51 PM
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Default Hodgdon H110

Welcome to the forum.

What you will find is that different guns will give different results as far as velocity.

The data provided by the companies is only a guideline. Different guns, bullets and primer combinations will yield different results.

That being said I find your results to be pretty much within the normal range for H110.

I have two .357 magnums with four inch barrels.

With 16 grains of H110 and a 158 JSP bullet one will yield approximately 1040 fps.

The other gun with the same load combo averages 1165 fps.

Two guns both Smith & Wessons both four inch barrels one over a 100 fps faster than the other.

Sixteen grains is as low as I will go with H110. This is due to trying to duplicate Remington 158 JSP velocity in a 1894 Marlin.

While I found that 17 grains was needed to duplicate the Remington load 16 grains was only 100 fps slower and showed less signs of pressure.

H110 is a very flashy powder especially in a revolver. Yet it works well and is easy to work with in a powder measure.

If you have more questions there is plenty of help available here.

BLM

I should have mentioned that loading density is very important with H110.

Reviewing my data shows that 16 grains produces velocities which are very close.

Example 1167/1165/1173 fps for a 158 JHP

Last edited by Bruce51; 07-28-2014 at 11:50 AM. Reason: update
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:01 AM
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Bruce covered it well above.

Main thing is you are at the start load and H110 works best at or near the max load. You want to be more at 16 grains.

You will not get the velocity they claim out of your gun (I have the same gun)

How are you weighing/dropping your powder?

From what you posted there is nothing "wrong" that I can see. You want a very firm crimp on the cannelure (crimp line) of the bullet

If you have 2400 powder try that and no Mag primer needed. Much more user friendly.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:10 AM
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When I used H110 with 158g bullets, I used 14.5g and got around 1000FPS. But the accuracy was really good. I am considering using it again with a higher powder charge. I have tried 11g of Blue Dot, and accuracy was outstanding but velocity was very dependent on ambient temperature and that scared me. I also have used 14.2 to 14.5g of 2400 with good accuracy results, but not as good as H110. Velocity was in the 1200 to 1300 range.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:54 AM
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Hodgdon does not recommend you download H110 more than 3% from the Max. Hodgdon lists the Max as 16.7gr H110 under a 158gr jacketed bullet. I can not figure out why they tell us not to download more than 3% yet their min/max is the usual 10% reduction for H110/W296...

When loading a 158gr JHP or JSP bullet my usual charge is 16.4gr W296 with a CCI550 primer.
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Old 07-28-2014, 06:52 AM
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If you look at the Lyman 49th you'll find their Starting Load for 357 Magnum with H-110 and a 158 grain Hornady JHP is 16.3 grains and the Maximum charge is 17.0 grains. Since the pressure listed for this data is in CUP it's pretty safe to assume that it is somewhat dated data but it's also an indication that you can step up your charge level.

BTW, I've loaded using Lyman's starting loads for H-110 in 357
Magnum and saw no signs at all of excessive pressure. About the only potential issue was the incredible amount of muzzle flash and blast with the 125 grain XTP I was loading with. Caused me to conclude that H-110 is just too slow for a lighter bullet.

Your lack of velocity production and the high degree of variance in the produced velocities lead me to believe that you aren't getting the pressure into a good working range for your powder. I would recommend that you try increasing your charge amount and do more testing. I'll also recommend that if at any point you start to have cases sticking in the cylinder to back away from that charge level by at least 1/2 grain. Because sticky extraction is a pretty reliable indicator that pressures are getting too high.
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:09 AM
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I load 16.3gr of WW-296 behind 158gr bullets. I started using that charge when Winchester first offered 296 to the public and listed a max charge of 16.5 grains, which I found caused sticky extraction. The last time I chrono'd that load, it barely made 1100fps. I suspect the OP's chrono data is correct and he could easily up the charge.
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
Hodgdon does not recommend you download H110 more than 3% from the Max. Hodgdon lists the Max as 16.7gr H110 under a 158gr jacketed bullet. I can not figure out why they tell us not to download more than 3% yet their min/max is the usual 10% reduction for H110/W296...

When loading a 158gr JHP or JSP bullet my usual charge is 16.4gr W296 with a CCI550 primer.
I have been questioning that for years

Look in the Hornady manual. Same thing. Way over a 3% reduction. There is a post here long ago with Skip were we argued over this. He claimed it was the way it was written meaning the 3% only applied with UN tested loads. I do not read the warning that way myself. To much semantics involved.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:55 AM
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I found the OP's chronograph data interesting as it verifies at 15 grains H110

is not at an optimum loading density.

Has anyone ever tried a 180 grain bullet with H110?

I think that bullet would work well in the Marlin with the microgroove barrel.

Some day I need to give it a test run.

BLM
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:36 PM
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I just want to clarify or disclaimer for the OP

I do not recommend loading max loads especially for folks that may be new to reloading.

H110/Win 296 is just one of those powders that does better at the higher end of the charge data. It is a very slow powder and fills the case up a lot so it's pretty hard to blow up a case or gun with it. Just make sure you don't compress it and stay below the absolute max and you will be fine to shoot another day.

What is so weird is that Hornady tested the 158 gr XTP with H110 and their range is 12.7 up to 15.6 grains!
(Colt Python 8" barrel)

Hodgdon (with the same bullet) shows 15.0 to 16.7 grains!

10" test barrel
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:19 PM
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Using the advice provided by you fine gentlemen I will try some more this weekend loaded at 16gn and 16.2gn with a slightly firmer grip and see what I can get out of them.
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:37 PM
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Ahh, good read here. I just acquired my first 357 mag/38 and have lots of H-110 on hand. Just bought 200 158gr XTP's and 250 plated 158gr hollow points to play/experiment with. Gives me a good frame of reference to start with.
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:23 PM
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Remember H110 requires a Magnum primer.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:22 PM
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Remember H110 requires a Magnum primer.
Well in a 357 mag anyway..
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lee M View Post
I found the OP's chronograph data interesting as it verifies at 15 grains H110

is not at an optimum loading density.

Has anyone ever tried a 180 grain bullet with H110?

I think that bullet would work well in the Marlin with the microgroove barrel.

Some day I need to give it a test run.

BLM
Yes, I did some 180gr loads with W296/H110 and a CCI550 primer.
With W296 and a 180gr Hornady XTP bullet from a 4" barrel the AV was 1056 fps and from a Marlin 1894C the AV was 1495 fps.

With a 180gr Cast Performance WFNGC bullet loading H110 from a Marlin 1894C the AV was 1547 fps.
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:08 PM
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Thanks Arch! I see that Sierra makes a 180 grain bullet as well.

Did you find the 180 grain bullets to give good accuracy?

I stopped testing in my Marlin when I found the 160 grain Speer half jacket gave me the best groups. Try to find that bullet now.

I have always wanted to do a retest with a 180 grain as Microgroove barrels seem to prefer long bullets.

BLM
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:18 PM
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Thanks Arch! I see that Sierra makes a 180 grain bullet as well.

Did you find the 180 grain bullets to give good accuracy?

I stopped testing in my Marlin when I found the 160 grain Speer half jacket gave me the best groups. Try to find that bullet now.

I have always wanted to do a retest with a 180 grain as Microgroove barrels seem to prefer long bullets.

BLM
The 180gr bullets were just as accurate as any others. I did however find the 170gr Sierra JHC bullets to be the most accurate in my handgun and levergun. Those and the Sierra 150gr JHC bullets are my favorites in the .357 Magnum.

The numbers from 170gr Sierra JHC bullets in my levergun.
17.0gr Lil'Gun - CCI-550 primer - AV=1793 fps (that's amazing velocity!)
15.5gr H110 - CCI-550 primer - AV=1699 fps

The numbers from 150gr Sierra JHC bullets in my levergun.
15.5gr 2400 - Win WSP primer - AV=1810 fps
17.0gr H110 - CCI-550 primer - AV=1826 fps

All those loads delivered groups just over 2" @100 yards which isn't all that bad from a levergun especially with my old eyes...
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:26 PM
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17.0gr Lil'Gun - CCI-550 primer - AV=1793 fps (that's amazing velocity!)

That sure is smoking hot!

I bet there was a bit of recoil with that load.

Thanks for sharing the info. When I run across some heavier bullets I will have to give them a try.

BLM
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:06 AM
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Well in a 357 mag anyway..
Well that is what we are talking about so I do not understand you post?? It is required in other Mag loads also, In the 30 carbine you can use a small rifle. Does that cover it?
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:59 AM
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17.0gr Lil'Gun - CCI-550 primer - AV=1793 fps (that's amazing velocity!)

That sure is smoking hot!

I bet there was a bit of recoil with that load.

Thanks for sharing the info. When I run across some heavier bullets I will have to give them a try.

BLM
Actually, not really heavier recoil. Lil'Gun was developed for 410 shotgun shells and then found a home with the .22 Hornet. When used in Magnum handgun shells it seems to generate high velocities without developing high pressures. The trade off, very high temperatures. I will not use Lil'Gun in .357 Magnum ammo meant for my handguns, only in my leverguns.

The velocities are higher and the pressures are much lower with Lil'Gun. I can't explain it but it's true... (especially with heavier bullets)
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:00 AM
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The reason H110/W296 load data suggests not reducing maximum charges by more than 3% is that the propellant requires a minimum load density of 90% in order to burn correctly. I would imagine the reason the OP is getting extreme spread of 147 fps, etc. is because the load isn't maintaining the 90% minimum number. The maximum charge weight for this bullet is in the vicinity of 17.0 grains-depending on the source of the data. 97% of that (minimum charge) would be 16.5 grains. While I do not doubt that both Hodgdon & Hornady tested much lower charges and did not find them dangerous, the internal ballistics of those charges produced the results you recorded. This is not news. Further, just because these low charges appear to be safe (?), the performance is far from satisfactory.

I, for the life of me do not understand why the fact that H110/W296 is, has and always will be meant for maximum or very near maximum, full power loads does not sink in and stick. Possibly or probably the OP just wasn't familiar with the propellant. Having used both for 35+ years, I also cannot comprehend the very low starting charge weights in some published data. While the 10% reduction is the general rule of thumb, this propellant is the absolute exception to the rule. As a matter of fact, back in the days when H110 was a surplus powder and W296 was made by Olin, Winchester would only note a single charge weight for W296. They further stated that it was to be used EXACTLY as published with zero increase or reduction of charge weight. Low charge weight with H110/W296 pose a danger of a squib and not a Kaboom. I have never heard of an overcharge of H110/W296 causing a Kaboom but I have seen extremely sticky extraction and VERY flat primers.



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Old 07-29-2014, 08:58 AM
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Well that is what we are talking about so I do not understand you post?? It is required in other Mag loads also, In the 30 carbine you can use a small rifle. Does that cover it?
You had just made the broad statement "Remember H110 requires a Magnum primer." which is not always the case, that's all.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:50 AM
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You had just made the broad statement "Remember H110 requires a Magnum primer." which is not always the case, that's all.
When is not the case? (for handgun use)
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:25 AM
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When is not the case? (for handgun use)
Well lets see, I've been shooting H-110 out of my 44mag Redhawk for years with a Large pistol (not magnum) primer, just as my Hornady book lists.

I use H-110 all the time in my 500 S$W with no magnum primer.. just as all my books list..

Those are the two handguns I use it in..

41 mag doesn't call for a magnum primer with it in my books.. Now I don't have this caliber, just looking in my reloading books.

I'm sure there are more out there, but I'm not into searching for them all..
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Old 07-29-2014, 01:05 PM
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Well lets see.

Hornady calls for a WINCHESTER LARGE Pistol which is also a magnum primer. For the 44 Mag. Winchester does not make a large pistol magnum primer.

The 500 SW uses a LARGE RIFLE primer.

Hodgdon data shows again Win Large Pistol Primer for the 41 Mag which again is a Mag primer also.

Granted Hornady #8 does not call for a Mag in the 41 Mag.

However Speer and Lyman and the powder company does so why is Hornady alone in this?? I do not have #9 so not sure what that says.

So for the topic at hand a 357 with H110 a Mag primer is indicated.

Edit:

For clarification I sent Hornady a e mail to see what their position is on this.
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
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Well lets see.

Hornady calls for a WINCHESTER LARGE Pistol which is also a magnum primer. For the 44 Mag. Winchester does not make a large pistol magnum primer.

The 500 SW uses a LARGE RIFLE primer.

Hodgdon data shows again Win Large Pistol Primer for the 41 Mag which again is a Mag primer also.

Granted Hornady #8 does not call for a Mag in the 41 Mag.

However Speer and Lyman and the powder company does so why is Hornady alone in this?? I do not have #9 so not sure what that says.

So for the topic at hand a 357 with H110 a Mag primer is indicated.

Edit:

For clarification I sent Hornady a e mail to see what their position is on this.

Yep, I could argue the fact that the Winchester large pistol primer is also a standard primer, Not sure why you brought up the fact that the 500 takes a large rifle primer, it doesn't say large rifle magnum primer, but I'll tell you what.. lets just say YOU are right about everything because that is all YOU want to hear anyway and we can call it quits. I'm sure that will make YOU happy and I'll not have to hear YOUR opinion on it anymore..
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Yep, I could argue the fact that the Winchester large pistol primer is also a standard primer,
A lot of things could be argued such as the fact that you seem to think that you know more than the propellant's manufacturer. A.O.'s personal experience not withstanding, a MAGNUM primer or WLP primer is required for H110/W296. Then again, everybody is free to do what they feel is best and take responsibility for the results. It (magnum primer)has been recommended by the manufacturers since the late 1970's at least for use in .357, .41 and .44 Magnum loads.

For those who happen to read this thread, you can either take A.O's recommendation or the manufacturer's, which ever you deem is more reliable. You pay your money and take your chances.

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Old 07-29-2014, 03:33 PM
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, a MAGNUM primer or WLP primer is required for H110/W296..

Bruce
Interesting, then why do my books call for a large rifle primer instead of a large rifle MAGNUM primer with H-110 in my 500 S$W loads?


And I don't think I know more than the propellants manufacturer, I just don't remember reading any broad sweeping statement from them that it could be used ONLY with magnum primers. And if they had stated that the loading books would have stated it also I think.

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Old 07-29-2014, 04:29 PM
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A.O., most reloaders agree H110/W296 is a hard to ignite ball powder that burns much better when aided by a magnum strength primer. I'm one of them and every time I do tests with standard and magnum primers the velocities stabilize and the SD numbers shrink with magnum primers over standard primers.

Years ago in most of the load manuals written before the testers got lazy would stipulate magnum primers when loading H110, W296, HS-7 and HS-6 because those powders should be used with magnum primers for the best results.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:53 PM
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A.O., most reloaders agree H110/W296 is a hard to ignite ball powder that burns much better when aided by a magnum strength primer. I'm one of them and every time I do tests with standard and magnum primers the velocities stabilize and the SD numbers shrink with magnum primers over standard primers.

Years ago in most of the load manuals written before the testers got lazy would stipulate magnum primers when loading H110, W296, HS-7 and HS-6 because those powders should be used with magnum primers for the best results.
That could very well be, not saying it isn't. I've had great luck over the years with my 44m and CCI large pistol primers, and also now with my 500S$W and large rifle primers..

All I ever said is that magnum primers weren't mandatory or required, If they were, I'm sure it would say so on the Hodgon site or the powder container and I have been able to find nothing on either..
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:57 PM
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Maybe this will help. The CCI primer energy chart.

As far as the original thread again H110 in the 357 mag lists a small pistol Mag primer.

If you jump to rifle then a Large rifle has more energy than a Small pistol Magnum does. That's why they are do not indicate a Mag Rifle Primer. As I said above a small rifle primer will work in the 30 carbine. The comparison between any pistol primer and a rifle primer is no relevant. Even though a small pistol Magnum has more energy than a small rifle (CCI) the rifle primers are stronger cups.

There is no arguing about Winchester Large Pistol. They are labeled for Magnum use,

In all pistols Hodgdon the powder company, calls for a Mag primer with H110. If you do not want to use one, then of course you do not have to.

It's not my opinion it is fact. So do as you wish.

If you wish to load based on "having good luck" and based on that's the way you do it, fine.
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:21 AM
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That could very well be, not saying it isn't. I've had great luck over the years with my 44m and CCI large pistol primers, and also now with my 500S$W and large rifle primers..

All I ever said is that magnum primers weren't mandatory or required, If they were, I'm sure it would say so on the Hodgon site or the powder container and I have been able to find nothing on either..
If you look at the .357 Magnum load data on the Hodgdon site you will clearly see they use a "Winchester SPM, Small Pistol Magnum" primer.

As for the standard large rifle primer in the 500 Magnum, Rule3 correctly addressed that already.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:09 AM
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If you look at the .357 Magnum load data on the Hodgdon site you will clearly see they use a "Winchester SPM, Small Pistol Magnum" primer.

As for the standard large rifle primer in the 500 Magnum, Rule3 correctly addressed that already.
There was never a question on the 357 mag, and yes.. on the 500, a mag primer is not called for..I understand.
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:08 PM
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The data in the original post shows one uncharacteristic velocity reading, at 895 fps. This is a deviation from the mean of more than 2 times the standard deviation, which is a pretty fair departure. If this shot is excluded, the mean would be 1008 and sd 29.7 fps.

Maybe the 895 was an aberrant reading? It might be worth trying a few more groups to see if this much variation is typical of this load.
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:24 PM
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Gentleman I just bought a pound of H110 today (I was lucky to find it) to replace my almost empty bottle that I bought 10 years ago. Right on the label it lists 13.5 grains behind a 180 gr Nos bullet for 1396FPS. At the Hodgdon website it lists a starting load of 15.0 grains behind a 158 gr XTP for 1418FPS....yet no one in here is getting close to that speed on either load Any thoughts.... I load 15 gns behind a 158 gr LSWC, I don't have a chrono, but the muzzle blast and recoil is big...
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:50 PM
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Gentleman I just bought a pound of H110 today (I was lucky to find it) to replace my almost empty bottle that I bought 10 years ago. Right on the label it lists 13.5 grains behind a 180 gr Nos bullet for 1396FPS. At the Hodgdon website it lists a starting load of 15.0 grains behind a 158 gr XTP for 1418FPS....yet no one in here is getting close to that speed on either load Any thoughts.... I load 15 gns behind a 158 gr LSWC, I don't have a chrono, but the muzzle blast and recoil is big...
It normally seems like the powder manufacturers are pretty optimistic on their numbers.. using their loads I rarely get close to their velocities. And yes I have a chrony.
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Old 08-20-2014, 01:35 AM
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Gentleman I just bought a pound of H110 today (I was lucky to find it) to replace my almost empty bottle that I bought 10 years ago. Right on the label it lists 13.5 grains behind a 180 gr Nos bullet for 1396FPS. At the Hodgdon website it lists a starting load of 15.0 grains behind a 158 gr XTP for 1418FPS....yet no one in here is getting close to that speed on either load Any thoughts.... I load 15 gns behind a 158 gr LSWC, I don't have a chrono, but the muzzle blast and recoil is big...
Hodgdon uses 8" and 10" vented test barrels, not 4" revolvers to test their ammo. You will not achieve the velocities they generate, well unless you are shooting a Buntline Special! lol

I can tell you I loaded 13.6gr W296 under a 180gr Hornady XTP bullet and when fired from a 18.5" Carbine that load generated an AV of 1495 fps. In the same gun with the same bullet I was able to generate 1584 fps when loading with Lil'Gun.
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Old 08-20-2014, 02:03 AM
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Hodgdon does not recommend you download H110 more than 3% from the Max. Hodgdon lists the Max as 16.7gr H110 under a 158gr jacketed bullet. I can not figure out why they tell us not to download more than 3% yet their min/max is the usual 10% reduction for H110/W296...

When loading a 158gr JHP or JSP bullet my usual charge is 16.4gr W296 with a CCI550 primer.
I think the main reason is that companies publish the part of the curve that works well. Some companies have said that they only publish data for what they get good results, which also explains why some powders are not always included. Not necessarily that it is a true 'minimum' load. 110/296 just don't work well in reduced loads.
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:22 AM
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Not necessarily that it is a true 'minimum' load. 110/296 just don't work well in reduced loads.
I completely agree there... I don't think you will find many who will argue W296/H110 is a good choice for reduced loads.
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Old 08-20-2014, 06:36 PM
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WW296 will Squibb with too light a charge. I experienced this in a 357 Magnum revolver and 125 gr bullets. Had to go with a max listed charge to get rid of the Squibbs. They make an odd kind of sound and then the bullet hits the backstop. Almost no recoil. This was on an indoor range.

With the larger calibers and heavier bullets this is less of a problem because the bullet weight produces more pressure. With 300 gr bullets in the 44 Magnum you can use the start charges with no problem. With the 240 gr and down use the recommended charges by Winchester. In the 500 S&W it should not be any problem and standard primers will probably work fine.

With the same weight bullets from different makers you can get very different pressure using the same powder. So, check with the maker of the bullets for a recommendation. If you get erratic pressures, you will notice on the chrono. Big variation in velocity. I looked in two manuals for the 158 gr jacketed load of WW296 in 357 Magnum and found a 2.7 gr variation. Be careful.

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Old 08-20-2014, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post

In all pistols Hodgdon the powder company, calls for a Mag primer with H110. If you do not want to use one, then of course you do not have to.

It's not my opinion it is fact. So do as you wish.

If you wish to load based on "having good luck" and based on that's the way you do it, fine.
Doesn't Hodgdon list a Remington 2 1/2 primer for 44 Magnum loads with H110? I thought they did, and I've been using them for several years successfully.

Edit-

Just checked and my memory was correct. So the statement "In all pistols Hodgdon the powder company, calls for a Mag primer with H110." is incorrect.
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