I started loading rifle ammo on a Lyman C-press. Hated it as the leaning shell had to be guided into the die. My dad's friend was a sporting goods wholesaler. My next outfit was built around an RCBS Rockchucker, which I got wholesale and which I still have and use for rifle ammo and universal decapping.

I eventually moved up to the Dillon 550. I can honestly say that I see no difference in the quality of my reloads with either press. The trick for me is in the die set-up and case preparation. As you know, dies can be improperly adjusted on any press.

Also, I test check my powder by putting every tenth charge on the scale. With any powder throw, it is wise to replenish the reservoir frequently to insure more uniform charges. My Dillon throws charges as uniformly as my original Lyman powder throw. No complaints in that department.

I fail to see a reason for the mass debate regarding single vs. progressive presses. They both have a place in reloading and both will remain in my workshop until my estate disposes of them.

Yes, basically.
Accuracy is a product of consistency, among many other things. The more inconsistencies that are introduced by the equipment, the more chances for error in the finished product. Rigidity is important because if there is any play it allows the tolerances to open up and the operator can not do anything to correct it. This applies to every press, as not all single stage presses are rock solid and are worse than any quality progressive.

And you also have to consider the operator of those machines. Just because one is using a single stage and the other is using a progressive doesn't mean the single stage will make more accurate ammo. How the brass is prepared is important to quality ammo and a slouch with the best press in the world won't necessarily make better ammo than a good loader with a cheap press.

I can not speak for the OP but I read his post that even if his Dillon can crank out xxx number of rounds per hour he would just as soon go slow and methodically.

I know the way he wrote it may seem different but I do not think he was saying that the Dillon made poor ammo. He has time, been loading a long time so no need to churn out hundreds of rounds a one time.

More about enjoy the reloading process rather than just get her done! I wrote a thread about single stage presses and got thrown in a roadside ditch.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Ok, I understand what the OP was trying to say.

But a lot of this debate (in the larger sense ) is to a large extent putting the cart before the horse. The debate on this subject is largely controled by the amount of ammo per loading session / shooting session/ week / month / year that a shooter needs/ percieves/ desires. Those that need/ wish huge piles of ammo at a crack , inherently gravitate to progressives. Those that have more (vaguely defined and subjective) normal requirements are a lot more flexable in their processes and equipment. And that's not a value judgement as to whom is more worthy or serious as a shooter. Action pistol types , or run-n-gun AR people can go thru a cpl mags in the same time period someone else shoots one group, and all of them are happy , and serious shooters within their element.

For some reloading is at best a nesecarry evil. For some it is an equal hobby in itself. Some people Like to concentrate on each individual step , and even prefer to perform each operation by feel.

The other major variable is some people settle on one specific load , and just want hundreds and thousands of the same thing. Others like to constantly experement. Either to chase absolute perfection , or to have multiple different loads for same cal.

1) yes, poorly made progressives have more slop, you are paying for precision when you buy better machines.
2) BS, measuring powder to tighter tolerances than 1/10gr is wasting time. Internal volume of cases will be as much as 1.0gr in match grade brass, depending on caliber. So unless you are weighing case internal volume to the nearest 1/10gr, measuring powder finer than that is wasting time w/ no appreciable result.
3) quality of ammo is not type of press dependent anymore, maybe 40yrs ago, but not anymore. But a high end machine, learn how to use it, reload with confidence.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Well said. That is how I took it also.

Folks just get to defensive about their Blue Machines!

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Still Running Against the Wind

Wait for it, ...........................

Beating A Dead Horse - YouTube

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

I don't think it's even that. It's just some folks are stuck in a mind set & give out false info; ie, you can't achieve quality unless you hand weigh powder & load on a ss press. That idea is just wrong, not JMO, it is wrong in todays technology. IF Tubbs can load record setting 1000yd ammo on a 550, then you or I can. Maybe The OP didn't mean that but implication was there, just read the post again. Red or Blue, I just like the facts to be there. Leave the emotional diatribe to the liberals in the Govt.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

The thread is getting off kilter but let's understand a few things. Handloading has the potential to turn out superior ammo but it can also turn out cruddy ammo.

It doesn't matter the type of machine you use or the rate that you turn them out. Somebody who wants superior ammo will be meticulous about what he does and have equipment that suits him best. Setting up dies to run 'perfectly' is in itself a part of reloading where great care can be taken. If someone just wants to just turn out ammo, he can be not so meticulous about what he does. I try to turn out good ammo, I've had a few problems like hard to chamber rounds or high primers that can all be fixed. It shoots just fine.

In short, speed is one factor, quality is another and they can both vary a LOT.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I started reloading over 40 years ago when I was a young cop raising two kids and making house payments on a minimal salary. If I wanted to shoot I had to reload, period. I scavenged brass, salvaged range lead for casting bullets, and several of us would go together on bulk powder buys to save a few bucks. Used to get a lot of military surplus powders for a couple bucks per pound, but had to buy by the keg.

Now I reload to assure myself of a supply of ammunition, especially when retail supplies are tight. I also shoot several antique rifles for which ammunition is either unavailable or very high priced (.45 Sharps Express, .45-90 Winchester, .348 Winchester, .25-20 Winchester, .22 Savage Hi Power, .38-40, and a few other vintage calibers that might otherwise cost me a couple of bucks every time I pull the trigger, but I can cast bullets and reload cartridges for maybe 20 or 30 cents each).

First thing I do when I get a gun in a new caliber is order a set of dies and a bullet mold or two. Still using two single-stage presses that are both about 40 years old. My bottom pour lead pit is about 35 years old. My lubricator-sizer is about 35 years old. They all still work just fine.

Best regards.

Your argument is based on your opinion that "better" ammo doesn't matter (to you).

Which you contradict by saying one should buy better equipment and operate it properly to get precision. If better ammo isn't desirable (by some, apparently . . . including you . . . at least up to a point lol), why do that? Once one starts down that path, where one stops depends on one's objectives.

All progressives we use have slop at the toolhead as purchased, even the magical Dillons. Hornady AP does not, but can develop slop at the bushing. Bullet OAL often varies because of (eg) the presence/absence of a case in the sizer, or how well lubed that case is, due to tolerances in the ram. NO progressive's PM can deliver 100 rounds all within +/- 0.1gr, especially for some powder types, let alone hit all of them within a fraction of a tenth of the target charge.

If you think those things aren't important to you, that's fine, it's a very fair argument to make.

But the quality single stage allows for better ammo.

Who's got that tub of buttered popcorn?

I think I understand the analogy. But what if you believe that evolution as origin of the species is a false theory?
What if you believe that the Lee Target Loader and the Prometheus powder weighing system were products of intelligent design?

You interpret what I said, but I have no idea how you got there. Where did I say better ammo isn't desirable? I only argue you don't get there using a ss press vs a quality progressive. You can NOT build quality ammo on a krap anything press w/ krap dies, ss or progressive. The better machines are more robust, have tighter tolerances, same with dies. This can be proven if you take the time to do the measurements. No contradiction in any of this.
Yes, several presses can deliver 1/10gr powder accuracy with boring routine, just depends on the powder choice. So, obviously, you haven't loaded on such a press. Correct, the Lee measure can't do it, but RCBS, Hornady & Dillon can all give you 1/10gr powder accuracy, again with the certain powders.
If you honestly think your ammo is "better" because you anally measure powder to 1/2 of 1/10gr, you are just kidding yourself. Internal case variation even negates 1/10gr variations in powder. Try it, I have, no diff in accuracy, same for thrown charges with certain powders vs hand weighing, no accuracy diff. Too many people think spending more time doing useless things makes their ammo "better", it has been proven many times by many reloaders, just not so. I love number chasers, but the ammo still has to shoot, regardless of the numbers. SD, runout, exact powder charges, blah, blah, I've chased the numbers, the ammo isn't "better" just took longer to put together, no measureable accuracy advantage but maybe for the guy shooting a $4000 blue printed rifle @ 1000yds. Your final sentence speaks of someone who has never loaded on a quality progressive gear. Try it, you might like having the extra time to shoot.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Wow this one turned out t be a good thread We are all on the same side boys, just pace that's all.................great responses though


thewelshm

Now don't make me bring out the Hornady popcorn maker!

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

At the end of the sixth day the Good Lord created the Dillon, and then he rested!

I will however tend to listen a little more carefully to a senior for their increased experience value and the fact that they have likely made the mistakes, (I think I made "MOST" all of them already & invented new ones) that they are trying to help others NOT MAKE. Newbies can come up with some new outside the box thinking, jewels of wisdom at times also. If they had the NET and forums like this in my youth, I could have saved myself a ton of time/trouble/$, if I had been smart enough to heed such advice. I'll say it AGAIN "the older you get, the more painful/expensive the mistakes are".

But he was able to rest on the seventh day because he USED the Hornady

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Really? U saw it in Wikipedia?

I too have a dillon 550 mostly for pistol and revolver ammo. Since I'n kinda anal about clean primer pockets all cleaning, uniforming, and trimming is done off the press. Stick one of the primer pocket cleaners in a variable speed drill and clean away. Uniforming primer pockets is done the same way and trimming does not have to be done every time cases are shot. That stuff usually get done while looking at the the boob tube. I don' run my dillon fast. Good reliable ammo is what I'm looking for not how many rounds can be done per hour. Frank

That's interesting, I've been wanting to read his books for a long time. It sounds as though there is a lot more difference between the long range game and the benchrest game than I thought. Does he discuss his ammo in detail?

It does not matter what type of press you use. What matters is whether the ammunition you produce with it suits your needs (quantity) and your purposes (accuracy). There are those who find reloading to be a necessary evil, an unpleasant means to their end: great quantities of ammunition for shooting. At the other end of the spectrum, there are those for whom reloading is an end unto itself. And then there are those who will fall somewhere between these extremes. The point is, each of us handloads for our own needs and purposes, and therefore we each have the type of press we believe to be best suited for those needs and purposes. Who is right? Who is wrong? The answer to both questions is "every one and no one". It still all comes down to a matter of personal preference.

So no matter which type of press you personally prefer to use, use it and enjoy it; and let those who prefer the other type enjoy theirs, too.

Lots of posts have good points.
What I always object to in any of these discussions is the attitude "If you don't do it my way you are an incompetent slob".
Lots of that in the above posts.

I'm an incompetent slob regardless of how I do anything.

I've used the Rockchucker since the '70s when my dad taught me how to handload. I used it today. I've been using the Hornady AP for about 8 months. I used it today. Since I usually go through 400+ rounds on each trip to the range a little efficiency is needed on the pistol and AR ammo. The .223 bolt gun gets fed with rounds that have more individual effort placed into them, going even beyond an O-frame single stage to hand dies and an arbor press. The product dictates the process. I wouldn't get as much trigger time if it weren't for the progressive and I would lose some "feel" of the process if I didn't have the single stage.


Untitled by zweitakt250, on Flickr

BTW, at what age are you considered an Old Timer?

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John

Over on Cast Boolits they have a saying something like this:
"Being new to casting does not make you stupid. Having 50 years of accumulated casting time does not make you smart, it makes you old."
I think this could apply to reloading as well.

Jeff

For some reason I actually read through all the posts on this mostly off track thread. Good grief people. The OP was talking about not needing to load to the max potential of his Dillons, not that they were in any way inferior. Reading comprehension must be a lost art…oh yea, public education probably did that.

I've only been reloading for 43 years so I guess I'm still a kid (LOL). Back in 1977, when I loaded 1000 rounds of 45 ACP on an RCBS Jr to go to Cooper's Gunsite for the 250 class, I decided progressives might be the way to go. Bought one of those green machines (what a nightmare) and then in early '78 bought a Star Universal. From that day forward I've loaded handgun ammo primarily on progressives (Dillons these days).

Reloading is a necessity for me to afford shooting. It is not fun. After close to half a million rounds (yes, 500,000) of 45 ACP it is just work. If I could afford to buy ammunition I would but that is never going to happen.

Like the OP I want quality ammo but don't need to turn it out at maximum capacity. I did that in my competition days and still paid attention to the quality. I watch the progressives carefully and inspect all through the process, and again at the end. Over those 40+ years I have had very, very few ammo related problems with my guns.

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

I started with a Lee hand press two years ago when I lost my job. The Lee gave me time to learn the basics and control every step , still all I use and all I have room for.

Must be the summer sun. These interpretation bickering posts are rediculous. We still have an ignore feature, if you don't feel the person warrants being ignored, then let it slide. We are on the same side, although we might take different paths to get there. This side bantering argumentative stuff reminds me why I don't belong to any clubs.

Sorry for the rant....carry on...I'm sure you will succeed in changing the other person's mind on their interpretation of what someone else typed.