New to reloading and have loaded up around 300 rounds. I'm using 3.2 grains of Red Dot under a 158 grain LSWC. As most of you know and I found out on my own, Red Dot doesn't meter the best so I set the scale (used a digital for the first 100 and a beam for the second 200) at 3.2 grains. The Alliant recipe calls for a max charge of 3.4 grains for standard .38, and 3.8 for +p. So if the throw was a bit light, I was at 3.0 or 3.1, or if it was heavy, I was around 3.4. The rounds are being fired through 2 .357 revolvers, a S&W 65-4, and a Ruger Service 6.

Fired 200 rounds so far. I batch load, so when I am done, I de-prime and re-size the brass, then expand it, then clean so when I want to reload them again, I prime, throw powder, seat and crimp. While I was doing that today, I came across 3 pieces of brass that were split. They are the first 3 in the picture. I checked all my loaded rounds and found none, but a check of the brass already cleaned, expanded and primed turned up one more. That's the fourth one on the right.

From left to right, the markings on the cases are:
C 6 7 7,
W C +P+
W W 38 Special
R-P 38 SPL (that's the primed one)



Now, I only started saving brass about 3-4 years ago. I don't shoot much so I had about 800 cases. Most of it was factory ammo, but I do recall buying a few boxes of the UltraMax bulk pack that Dicks sells. I also bought 150 rounds of reloads from a gun store last year. It was labeled TruVelocity, .45 ACP, but a sticker was placed over the box and labeled .38 Special. I'm betting those were the problem cases. The first 2 are definetely reloads since I never heard of C 6 77, I never bought +P+ ammo Who knows how many times they have been reloaded?

So what do I do? I don't believe it was my reloading that did it. I was within the range of the recipe and I sure know I never double charged.

Advice please

Since those are neck splits I am inclined to think you had some very well used, old cases. I am a tad concerned though that you split so many in one batch.

If you know which cases the reloads came in you could set them aside otherwise just toss them when they split.

It's 4 out of 800 (so far). Is that a high number? I bet it was that TruVelocity ****. I got them when there was nothing else to buy after Newtown. Of course I'm gonna toss them, but if others split along the way, is there a danger to the gun or to me if they split?

I have about 500 rounds of factory ammo sitting around. I was gonna let them stay in the safe and just shoot my reloads, but maybe I'll shoot them so I have a supply of newer brass. I am gonna go through my cases and toss anything I KNOW to be reloads, like the +P+ and C 6 77.

I shoot a very mild load of 231 under a hollow base wad cutter. I have several hundred cases and reload and shoot them until they split. As long as the loads are mild I don't think its a big deal. If I'm loading hotter loads I'm much more careful in segregating brass and discarding it long before it starts splitting.
Bob

Brass work hardens from being sized. Then if you shoot a gun with a fat chamber that stretches the case out that much more for sizing to squeeze back down. I wouldn't sweat it.

U need to clean first. loose chamber? 38s last 30+ firings.

ditto!
Jim

Thanks. I just hear people say that you can road 38 practically forever. I'm sure it was those truvelocity rounds. So no danger to me or gun?

Clean before resizing? I figured better to deprime before cleaning so the primer pocket is empty The rounds that split were deprimed and resized. Then cleaned.

That will probably solve your problem. You are killing your resizing die. Military brass in 38s are harder to seat a primer I have never cleaned a 38 primer pocket in 30 years of reloading & 200-400 rounds a week. I had the pleasure of getting to learn from some old bullseye shooters. These people did not read your complete post of your problem. A good liquid car wax will clean good as the hi dollar stuff. CLEAN IT FIRST. Let us know.

Brass cases are consumable / disposable just like primers and powder. Only difference is you get 5 to 20 reloads from a brass case, and 1 reload from primers or powder. Just pick up some more range brass. Split necks on rimmed revolver cases do not hurt anything. The cracked neck just means there are no more 10 pointers left in the case.

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S&WHF 366

So you're saying that by resizing a dirty case that I am killing it? And that I should clean first with the expended primer still in?

And which of the brass is military? The one with 77 on it? Reminds me of surplus garand ammo I have for my M1

Right now in my waiting to clean bin there are 200 deprimed/ resized and expanded cases. I was gonna go through all of what is loaded or ready load and then deprime and expand them before dumping them in that bucket. So now I would have about 700 deprimed and expanded cases. Then wash them all at once. This way I know how many times I reload them.

So I should switch to clean while still having expended primer in, then resize, expand, prime, throw powder, seat, and crimp?

clean before resizing or you may scratch your sizing die
if you wish to deprime before cleaning, use a depriming die
those 38 cases have work hardened and become brittle
that happens after a whole lot of reloading

I always use a universal depriming die, then clean.

But, have had several "quality" Starline 38spl "nickel" cases split after only 5 to 7 reloads (Mihec 128gr HP, w231/hp38 840fps). Stopped using nickel. Just saying, even if you resize cleaned cases, it doesn't rule out splits.

Trust me--
" Richard Nixon"
' --clean-punch the primer out & resize at the same time-- powder in - & seat & crimp. 3 or 4 stage. Don't worry about how many times on the brass. When they split chunk them. A split case is not going to blow your revolver up in a low pressure load like u are shooting. In a meet use fresher brass. Anything else is a waste of time & effort. I shoot with a lot of good shooters. If u sleep better at night pushing the primer out first-go for it. It is a step to take more time & no difference. Let us know & good loading.

Same for 9MM? Clean before resizing? I deprime and resize in one step.

Clean all brass first. You guys should have some birdseye maple stocked black powder long guns hidden out somewhere. I will add this & am out. The better shooters in my 600+ gun club do it the way I do it. If you are going to win u need all the edge u can get. I am 70 & hard to beat. I own real bullseye guns shot in meets in the 60s. They still work.

A common thing with .38 spl brass even with only 2.8 gr of BE.
After so many fireings and resizeings they fail and split.

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Nonsense. Resize/depriming dirty brass is just fine. As long as your brass isn't covered in dirt or sand or something, it's fine to go straight into the resizer. In fact, hyper clean brass runs into its own set of problems when trying to resize it, it needs something there for lubrication.

My brass generally lands on concrete or on the bench (semi-auto/revolver respectively) and never gets dirty enough that it needs cleaning prior to the resizing die. Never scratched a die.

Cleaning primer pockets is a must if you're OCD, like me. Wet tumbling does it for me.

No danger to you OR your gun to answer your question....seems like nickel plated casing are more subject to splitting than a brass case....
Sort of like tires...they eventually wear out....discard to the discard box...take them to the recycler's when the box is getting full.

Randy

All straight wall cases eventually split, is what it is. You have no idea how many times reloaded brass has been reloaded, the split ones are just old. I do lose more nickel cases than brass. I suspect the nickel process makes the brass a little more brittle.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I am OCD. And my revolver brass goes from the cylinder straight into a pocket on the range bag. never hits the dirt.

On another note, either the Red Dot or the LSWC makes the gun greasy and dirty! No big deal as it comes right off, but it was filthy after 100 rounds. Red Dot is what they had and it's working so I'll use it till it's gone. I got a bottle of Trail Boss that I'll try after the Red Dot is gone. Looking for Hp38 or Win231, but you know how it is nowadays.

They do that. firing expands, sizing squeezes them back down. The brass weakens ( take a metal wire coat hanger and put a bend in it, now bend it back and forth several times quickly...it breaks)
The hotter the load , closer to Maximum, the quicker the brass is going to fail. It don't last forever...that's the truth.
If you want it to last longer, load lighter. Don't need +P for targets and tin cans. I got brass for wadcutter target loads that is twenty years old, I've lost count of how many times it has been reloaded. When one splits I toss it , until then it gets reloaded. It doesn't hurt anything.
It's not the Red Dot powder that's causing it . It's the maximum charge of Red Dot that accelerates the cracking.
Gary

Except his load is pretty mild, it's not the load but the brass.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

First, It's not you or anything YOU did. You got some old******* brass mixed in with your good stuff. If you know what headstamp it is cull them out of there.

If you don't know, It doesn't matter, If the split they split, Toss them or recycle them. If you need 38 brass let me know.

second, there is really no need to clean primer pockets . I load pretty much every handgun caliber there is and never clean them (primer pockets) So just dump your dirty brass in the tumbler clean them and then deprime and resize.
With revolver brass you should not hurt your dies as they are not landing on the ground and dirt. But say some semi auto? It lands in the dirt and then if you deprime it there may be sand or other junk on it that gets in your dies.

Sure OCD, anal Match and Bench rest shooter clean primer pockets. Never seen any proof that it accomplishes anything. Big waste of time for no reward.

Don't believe me, Take 50 dirty brass, punch out the primer now use the little pocket tool over a piece of white paper. See how much comes out. You decide.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Would some real target bullseye shooters old or young put their 2 cents in. People that win meets that roll their own? They are probably laughing tooooo hard to type. 38 or 45. RULE 3 which I like on most posts said in an old post he trims 38. What is that about in a wheel gun? He goes to that trouble & don't clean? I am in the dark on this one. Maybe he will explain to my dumb butt.

I dont tumble (yet). I use the Hornady Sonic Cleaner and the solution. Gets them really shiny. Spent enough on equipment to get started for now. If I bought a tumbler the wife would throw a fit (not really, but she wouldn't be happy). Tumbler is on my Christmas list though.

I'll just clean before I do anything. Not worried about primer pockets. Being new to reloading, I get freaked out a bit. I envisioned exploding cylinder and a trip to the ER! I know .38 splits eventually. Just surprised it happened so early, but the reloads I got at the gunstore looked old. Should never have bought them, but they were a good deal and .38 was nowhere to be found at the time. Even the box looked old. Not falling apart old, but the terminolgy on it. It read "Police Qualifier Ammunition". Wish I had a picture of it. It was either TruVelocity, or now that I think of it, SuperVelocity. Box was prinyed ".45 Auto", but had a stsicker that read .38 Special 110 grain HP. They were lead. Oh well. Live and learn. No more reloads other then mine!

As for the max charge, unless my scales were seriously off, I was MAYBE a hair at maximum for .38 special, but still well below +P. And since I was shooting them through .357, I figured what the hell. Incidentally, my new beam scale went back to Hornady. I had another thread on it. Adjustment nuts on end were spinning way past where they should have and it lost zero. I left the scale set to 3.2 grains and dropped the powder. If it was below the line, I knew it was light. Above the line I knew it was heavy. But I never let it get more than a hair above or below. If it was too much, I put the powder back in the hopper and threw another one. And I checked the scale with check weights before, during, and after the reloading session. There were a few today that were surely hotter. I felt and heard the report. Hope Trail Boss meters better.

Hello good buddy. I own 4 scales. Everyone needs 2 -one for a backup. Scales are accurate. Got to understand them. Never had a bad HORNADY PRODUCT. I said I was going to shut up but I aint dead yet. Had some bad scopes but no bad reloading stuff in over 30 years. Lyman-Dillon-RCBS- Hornady -U cant go wrong. All my scales are RCBS.

You trim brass to get uniform crimp & neck tension, so some argument can be made for that as rimmed cases do stretch a bit. Cleaning primer pockets, never, not ever on handgun brass. They only get so dirty then that is it. I've tested my best precision rifle loads with clean & dirty primer pockets, the\y shoot identically, in the high 3s.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I'm using Carbide handgun sizing dies so I just use a light touch of lube before sizing/de-capping. BTW, to lube my cases I stand the face up in a reloading tray and place an RCBS Lube pad over the full tray. Makes it much much easier on my arm during the sizing and flaring operations which are done prior to cleaning in a Thumlers Tumbler.

Now for some thoughts on causes for split cases.

1) Going overboard on the flaring/crimping operations. Every time you flare a case you do a bit of work hardening to the case edge and the same is true of what happens every time you crimp the case. It takes some time but you want to do some experimenting to determine the point of Minimum for your flare and crimp that provide good function but work that case edge as little as possible.

2) Cleaning methods. I am not a fan of using the Vinegar/Salt solutions that have become so widespread and popular. Add salt to Acetic Acid and one byproduct is Hydrochloric Acid. Some see no harm in these solutions but I am not one of them, it's why I spent the money to get a Thumlers Tumbler. Now my cleaning solution is 2 tablespoons of dishwashing soap and 1/4 teaspoon of Lemishine in 2 gallons of water.

3) Oversize chambers. If a case expands too much during firing it will suffer a reduced lifespan. It's why I would never consider honing the chambers in one of my revolvers simply because of some unsightly tool marks. As long as the cases eject easily I'm not going to do anything to the chambers in one of my revolvers except clean them.

4) Old worn out cases. I purchase a lot of "once fired" brass and have seen some some cases that obviously had been through more that one firing cycle. However, out of a bag of 500 cases I would estimate the culls as numbering between 10 and 15, so it's not a huge problem and at 30 bucks for 500 cases I consider it a bargain.

5) Ever "miss" on getting a case fully inserted into the shell holder? I do and when it happens when I'm flaring with a powder through die the result is a case with a notch in the rim. Since this creates a Stress Riser my "misses" go into my culling bucket.

Anyhow that's my take on causes for split cases. Lucky for me I've only had 2 cases split in the 2 years I've been reloading and they didn't cause any drama at all. Because in both cases they split when I pressed in the bullet and the ease of the press handle was a distinct tipoff that something was amiss.

Well, the manual said I should never have to adjust the two nuts on the right end and I had to do that. The tech on the phone said they're supposed to be loctited to only move a hair and I could spin mine as much as I wanted. Since I verified with check weights I'm confident the scale was reading right but since hornady stands behind their products (why I went with them in the first place) I sent it in. Let them send me a new one on their dime!

I appreciate all the help. I've only been reloading 2 months but I have learned so much. My first thread requesting help before I even had powder had guys PM'ing me with tips and others saying they feared for my safety! Learned a lot since then. Have more to learn for sure.

I plan to start loading for my Garand in about a year. CMP just raised prices on surplus ammo again so if I wanna shoot it it's time to reload! Reading a lot and asking questions before the ! 9MM is next cartridge to reload. Tumbler and 9MM dies will be on the Christmas list this year! Hornady gave me 500 free XTP hollow point bullets. Seems a waste to shoot them at paper. Might be looking to trade for target bullets.

I'm no bullseye shooter. Don't plan to be either. My 7 year old saw me packing the car for the range and asked when he could come. That time is soon win a .22. When it's time to move up to centerfire it will be with ammo I reload. Hope to pass the interest on to him one day!

Cleaning the brass was the question-clean or not to clean on revolver rounds on pistol for accuracy. I own 3- 38 specials in automatic. 2 Clarks -one 1961 COLT NATIONAL COMP. They will not function long if not perfect. Wheel guns will function with sub par ammo -but all target ammo is shot with clean brass if you are going for the win.

Take a short cut & get some DILLON dies in the future. Get a RUGER 22 for the first pistol . CHRISTMAS WILL BE HERE BEFORE YOU KNOW IT.

Yeah. Gotta get a 22 pistol. Have a ruger 10/22 rifle. I like the Browning Buckmark

Of course, that's assuming I can get 22 ammo! I have about 4000 rounds on hand but hate to shoot it since it's not as easy to replace

I trimmed some 38 brass for a M 52-1 Wadcutter gun. I do not trim handgun brass nor do I clean primer pockets. I have of course tried it and found it useless.

I trim rifle brass like 223 and 308.

I clean my brass in a tumbler with the old primers in the. Wet tumbling or sonic or whatever may make brass so shiny you need shades but again it is to much work and does not change the end result. Actually dirty brass (not mud and dirt) just carbon will shoot just as well as squeaky clean.

Anyway as to the OP question once again, all these posts and I will bet 99.99 % it is some old bad brass,

I am not a competition or "game shooter" and at my range I can out shoot most of them. Far from an expert but better than some range rat.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I agree. No coincidence the offending brass was almost certainly the brass from those old reloads. But still learned a lot!

Sorry RULE I got the impression u did not clean brass--May the force be with you. Like u posts.

That. Don't make reloading harder than it needs to be.

No problem I really did not word it well, I went back and corrected it

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Still Running Against the Wind

Well, I'm not an anal match shooter or a benchrester, and have never been diagnosed as OCD. I trim every piece of brass I load and clean every primer pocket on each one too. There's a reason I do it and with all due respect to everyone on the internet, I'm not about to stop because they say it's not necessary. And cleaning primer pockets isn't about accuracy.

kbm6893, As the rest said, the splits aren't a problem, when they happen, toss them. If you are using a sonic cleaner and it's getting your primer pockets clean, that's fine. If your brass isn't dirty and you want to size/deprime before cleaning, that's fine too. Keep in mind that if you are using carbide dies and they get grit imbedded in them, it will ruin them. But that is "if". And as others have noted above, you can buy a deprimer die that is made for depriming dirty brass so it can be cleaned before resizing.

No biggie..... you are well below a maximum 38 spl. charge.

Those cases are either old and wore out and past their prime....
Cases that had a flaw and finally gave out.............or
A med. heavy load that was shot in a cylinder that had just a little too much "slop" in it, to allow the case to expand a little too much.

It happens............
I have had cases come apart in many different ways and 90%
were under a maximum charge. They just wear out.

Now when they don't eject...............
give me a call !!

No more reloads other then mine!

These are good words to live by.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

Your average case will last a long time. However, you will always have some cases that fail early, even on the first firing when new.

That's how 38/357 brass fails. Nothing to worry about. Don't concern yourself with thinking there is a gun problem.

You aren't doing anything that would compromise a case. Work hardening, brittle case material, large chambers on a gun all contribute to shortening the life of cases. With good brass and those loads, brass should last a LONG time. Sometimes I get teeny splits from the mouth being hardened, but the cracks you show are pretty big to be called 'neck splits".

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

My friend, I have never seen a box of ultra max that didn't have a whole big bunch of split brass. I don't know were they get their brass.
I was out with a buddy of mine and he had boxes of that gar bage. I asked him what he was going to do with the brass and then asked him to not leave that stuff laying were it could contaminate anybody elses.
I have splits with my own good brass cases from time to time. Just smush them with a plier and throw them in your scrap bucket.
I now have carbide dies but still lube the brass a small bit by spraying a tiny amount of lube in a gallon ziplock bag. Adding the brass and shaking. I lube my rifle cases the same way exept I add the cases then spritz a tiny bit shake and spritz shake. Not to much lube though.
I just bought a thumlers tumbler and am going to try the wet method of case cleaning.
Some one tell me about the mothers car wax thing. Is it just as I have done with the ziplock baggy and purpose bought case lubes?

I have even reloaded brass that had a small tear , like the 3rd one from the left, shot fine, just chucked it after it was discharged....

This ^^^

Run 'em until they fail, then toss 'em.

"Ain't no thang"

Where is my coffee cup? The OCD Reloaders on this post have caused me to fall asleep at the keyboard. You reload to be able to shoot. You shoot to hit the target.

If you miss the target, guess what? It is your fault! Don't slough off responsibity for your failure to adequately perform on cracked brass, tarnished brass, poor crimp, wrong case length, inaccurate powder charge, or worst of all dirty primer pockets. You incorrectly activated the trigger.

Oh darn, darn, darn, the pot is empty and I have to make more coffee.

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S&WHF 366

Perhaps you need to switch the DECAF!

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Still Running Against the Wind